POV question: Can I get away with this?

Dragonwriter · Dec 13, 2014

Brief(ish) history: I originally wrote an urban fantasy novel that was meant to be the first book in a trilogy. It's told from the POV of one character, a young man who's searching for his sister, but about a quarter of the way in he meets another character, a mage, who helps him find her.

Then I wrote some more books, including the second and third one in the trilogy (with more POVs - mostly the young man and the mage) and about this time I realized that they're not just a trilogy--they're part of a series, and the actual MC is the mage. The series now has five books in it, including the trilogy and two others. All of them except the first one are multi-POV (again, mostly the mage and the young man, and sometimes his sister) or from the mage's POV alone. Initially I was trying to do the "mage as MC seen through the POV of someone else" thing, like Holmes and Watson, to keep him mysterious, but I gradually realized this wouldn't work for a whole series.

I realized that in order to fit the first book in the trilogy into the series as a whole, I would need to rewrite it to bring the mage (who's the series' main character) in earlier. So I wrote some chapters from the Mage's POV at the beginning, leading up to a point where his story and the young man's converge (they meet for the first time).

So here's my question: The rest of the story concerns the young man and the mage looking for the sister, eventually finding her, and dealing with a much larger and more dangerous problem than any of them originally suspected. But it's all from the young man's POV. I could recast a few of the chapters from the mage's, but I definitely don't want to do alternating chapters once the two of them meet, since a large part of the story is the young man discovering the world of magic and the supernatural through his association with the mage.

Can I get away with the first 15 chapters or so being alternating POVs, followed by mostly the young man's POV interspersed with a few from the mage's POV? Or would that just get too annoying/confusing?

The book is going to end up around 130-140,000 words with the new material and some cutting of the rest to eliminate fat and unnecessary stuff that was covered in Book 1.

Just to make things clear:
Book 1 - First book in series. Mage's POV, mostly. Young man doesn't appear, since he's introduced in Book 2.
Book 2 - Second in series, first in trilogy. Currently young man's POV, being rewritten to add some chapters in mage's.
Book 3 - Third in series, second in trilogy. Multi-POV (mostly mage and young man)
Book 4 - Fourth in series, third in trilogy. Multi-POV (ditto)
Book 5 - Fifth in series, standalone story. Mage's POV only.

Apologies if this is too confusing! TL;DR version: Can I have a book that starts out in alternating POVs until the two characters meet, then continue the rest almost exclusively from a single POV?

Thanks!

LOTLOF · Dec 13, 2014

Goerge R R Martin, Robert Jordan, and Harry Turtledove are just three authors who have used several POV characters. Their books all seemed to work just fine.

I also wouldn't worry about the fact the previous books were written with only a single or a handful of perspectives. So long as the story has a good narrative flow I doubt any of the readers will be bothered by it. Just use the narrative method you feel works best.

Dragonwriter · Dec 13, 2014

It's not so much that I'm worried about some of the books being multi-POV while others are single. What concerns me more is that the book in question used to be all in Character A (Jason)'s POV, but Jason isn't the MC of the series even though this particular book is really more his story. By adding more chapters to bring Character B (Stone, who's the series MC) in earlier, I'm currently looking at this structure:

Prologue, Jason, Stone, Jason, Stone (alternating to chapter 15), then Jason, Jason, Jason, etc. until the end.

Stone still appears in the story as prominently as Jason, but none of the chapters after the early alternating ones are in Stone's POV.

LDParker · Dec 13, 2014

Don't see why it can't work. I am guessing Books 2-4 are one continuous storyline versus the other two standalone works?

Dragonwriter · Dec 13, 2014

Yes, exactly. Books 2-4 are a trilogy--each of them has its own self-contained story, but they cover one overarching storyline. Books 1 and 5 are standalone (and the remaining books in the series will be as well. I'm done with trilogies!

)

JCornelius · Dec 20, 2014

Book 1 of the magnificent Philip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers was though the POV of A, while the following books of A's secondary character B. Worked out great.

In Frank Herbert's Dune each following book has a different POV emphasis. Which is super. Characters drift in and out of focus, depending on where the story goes.

It's like POV shifts within a chapter, or tense shifts, or narrator intrusions, or rich prose--do it well and it works great. Do not do it well and everybody will be on your back saying you suck.

If you can't handle the technique, everything will always be wrong: too fast, too slow, too complex, too linear, too deep, too shallow, too psychological, too action-oriented, too experimental, too banal, too perfect characters, too flawed characters, too sophisticated prose, too simple prose, paragraphs too short, paragraphs too long...

If you can handle the technique, people squirm their butts comfier into their couches and submerge into the experience you offer.

Dragonwriter · Dec 20, 2014

You guys are making me feel a lot better! I was afraid I'd get a whole bunch of people telling me, "No! You can't do that! It's the mark of a rank amateur!"...and stuff like that.

I read through the book after I made the changes--I think it works, and I didn't find it at all jarring when the POV just settled on one character for the rest of the story after alternating for 15 chapters. I've sent it to my beta reader (who's very critical when something doesn't work) so we'll see what he says. I appreciate the comments!

rwm4768 · Dec 20, 2014

It wouldn't bother me.

Dancre · Dec 29, 2014

130,000 words is a bit much and you'll have to cut it down to at least 100,000 min for a first book. As for switching POV? Pishah! everyone does that. it's ok.

Dragonwriter said:
Brief(ish) history: I originally wrote an urban fantasy novel that was meant to be the first book in a trilogy. It's told from the POV of one character, a young man who's searching for his sister, but about a quarter of the way in he meets another character, a mage, who helps him find her.

Then I wrote some more books, including the second and third one in the trilogy (with more POVs - mostly the young man and the mage) and about this time I realized that they're not just a trilogy--they're part of a series, and the actual MC is the mage. The series now has five books in it, including the trilogy and two others. All of them except the first one are multi-POV (again, mostly the mage and the young man, and sometimes his sister) or from the mage's POV alone. Initially I was trying to do the "mage as MC seen through the POV of someone else" thing, like Holmes and Watson, to keep him mysterious, but I gradually realized this wouldn't work for a whole series.

I realized that in order to fit the first book in the trilogy into the series as a whole, I would need to rewrite it to bring the mage (who's the series' main character) in earlier. So I wrote some chapters from the Mage's POV at the beginning, leading up to a point where his story and the young man's converge (they meet for the first time).

So here's my question: The rest of the story concerns the young man and the mage looking for the sister, eventually finding her, and dealing with a much larger and more dangerous problem than any of them originally suspected. But it's all from the young man's POV. I could recast a few of the chapters from the mage's, but I definitely don't want to do alternating chapters once the two of them meet, since a large part of the story is the young man discovering the world of magic and the supernatural through his association with the mage.

Can I get away with the first 15 chapters or so being alternating POVs, followed by mostly the young man's POV interspersed with a few from the mage's POV? Or would that just get too annoying/confusing?

The book is going to end up around 130-140,000 words with the new material and some cutting of the rest to eliminate fat and unnecessary stuff that was covered in Book 1.

Just to make things clear:
Book 1 - First book in series. Mage's POV, mostly. Young man doesn't appear, since he's introduced in Book 2.
Book 2 - Second in series, first in trilogy. Currently young man's POV, being rewritten to add some chapters in mage's.
Book 3 - Third in series, second in trilogy. Multi-POV (mostly mage and young man)
Book 4 - Fourth in series, third in trilogy. Multi-POV (ditto)
Book 5 - Fifth in series, standalone story. Mage's POV only.

Apologies if this is too confusing! TL;DR version: Can I have a book that starts out in alternating POVs until the two characters meet, then continue the rest almost exclusively from a single POV?

Thanks!

Dancre · Dec 29, 2014

YOu can basically do whatever you want as long as it works. Brandon Sanderson brings in characters that are never seen again, he jumps from one pov to another.

The Help by Kathryn Stockett takes each chapter from another character's POV but does it in such away that makes the book yummy.

The Hunger Games are written in present tense, something rarely seen in books, but it is heartbreaking.

So you can basically do what you want, BUT it has to be uniformed, everything has to keep the story moving to the end and you don't want to get stuck somewhere and you can't move forward. Every word must have a purpose.

What I think it amateurish is writers who think they know what they are doing yet have no clue and refuse to listen. The fact that you are asking questions tells me you're moving from being an amateur to being successful. Keep going, play with it, break hearts, shatter people, make them think. You'll get there.

Dragonwriter said:
You guys are making me feel a lot better! I was afraid I'd get a whole bunch of people telling me, "No! You can't do that! It's the mark of a rank amateur!"...and stuff like that.

I read through the book after I made the changes--I think it works, and I didn't find it at all jarring when the POV just settled on one character for the rest of the story after alternating for 15 chapters. I've sent it to my beta reader (who's very critical when something doesn't work) so we'll see what he says. I appreciate the comments!

Dragonwriter · Dec 29, 2014

Dancre said:
130,000 words is a bit much and you'll have to cut it down to at least 100,000 min for a first book. As for switching POV? Pishah! everyone does that. it's ok.

Well, I'm self-publishing, so I'm not too worried about the wordcount. Also, I'm having the whole series edited by a pro editor, so I'm sure he'll slash out any unnecessary bits.

Really glad to see everybody seems to be fine with the POV changes, though.

While I'm on the subject, let me ask one more question:

In a different book in the same series, most of it is from three POVs: the mage's, his apprentice's, and the antagonist's. However, very close to the end I've got a few short sections from the POV of the mage's girlfriend, who's never had any other POV scenes. One beta reader thinks I should cut them, but the other one thinks they're fine. How would you all feel about a new POV that close to the end? The girlfriend has been in the story throughout and appears fairly often.

The Raen · Dec 30, 2014

Having a POV shift to a minor character is usually fine as long as it's interesting and adds something to the story. Near the end, you just have to be extra careful about pacing. Do you lose clarity or significant value by cutting those sections? If the answer is no, you should cut them regardless of POV shift. If the answer is yes, keep 'em.

Bufty · Dec 30, 2014

You are self-publishing, you had a long exchange in July about a Query Letter, you are not concerned about word length and you intend having the novel professionally edited.

:Shrug:

Anything will work if executed properly and it contributes to the story while maintaining flow and clarity.

Dragonwriter said:
Well, I'm self-publishing, so I'm not too worried about the wordcount. Also, I'm having the whole series edited by a pro editor, so I'm sure he'll slash out any unnecessary bits.

Really glad to see everybody seems to be fine with the POV changes, though.

While I'm on the subject, let me ask one more question:

In a different book in the same series, most of it is from three POVs: the mage's, his apprentice's, and the antagonist's. However, very close to the end I've got a few short sections from the POV of the mage's girlfriend, who's never had any other POV scenes. One beta reader thinks I should cut them, but the other one thinks they're fine. How would you all feel about a new POV that close to the end? The girlfriend has been in the story throughout and appears fairly often.

BethS · Dec 30, 2014

Dragonwriter said:
While I'm on the subject, let me ask one more question:

In a different book in the same series, most of it is from three POVs: the mage's, his apprentice's, and the antagonist's. However, very close to the end I've got a few short sections from the POV of the mage's girlfriend, who's never had any other POV scenes. One beta reader thinks I should cut them, but the other one thinks they're fine. How would you all feel about a new POV that close to the end?

I would wonder why on earth the author felt it necessary to include her POV so late in the book, and would probably find it distracting.

chompers · Dec 30, 2014

Dragonwriter said:
I read through the book after I made the changes--I think it works, and I didn't find it at all jarring when the POV just settled on one character for the rest of the story after alternating for 15 chapters. I've sent it to my beta reader (who's very critical when something doesn't work) so we'll see what he says. I appreciate the comments!

I would notice this and it would bother me. Consistency is important, and not just about keeping facts straight, but about formatting and how things are set up. This is why things are jarring, because our brains are reading along and have gotten settled on seeing it one way, and then along comes something that throws us off.

Having said that, I think I may put more importance on it than others. But just make sure it's not so rigid that things become monotonous.

Dragonwriter · Dec 30, 2014

BethS said:
I would wonder why on earth the author felt it necessary to include her POV so late in the book, and would probably find it distracting.

The reason I do it is because the characters are at a big charity event held in a fancy old house (which happens to have a malevolent entity in the process of breaking free in the basement). There's a fire, and the MC and his apprentice are downstairs dealing with the entity, while the girlfriend is upstairs, has no idea where they are (or what they're doing), and notices smoke. So she's being heroic and helping to evacuate the building. Also, the MC and the apprentice both end up unconscious, and she finds them. I didn't want her to be the usual "damsel in distress" type character, even though she really has no idea what's going on beyond "there's a fire."

I'm not wedded to keeping her POV, but since my usual other POV characters aren't available and I don't want to just flash forward quite yet, I need somebody at that spot.

Dancre · Dec 30, 2014

Well, here's the thing about Editors. They aren't going to clean up your story and slash things out, they are there to show you what you are doing wrong in the novel and then leave it to you to fix it. before dolling out the money, you might want to get references first. The editor shouldn't be slashing things out, but to show you how to improve the novel. Be careful. Don't get ripped off.

Dragonwriter said:
Well, I'm self-publishing, so I'm not too worried about the wordcount. Also, I'm having the whole series edited by a pro editor, so I'm sure he'll slash out any unnecessary bits.

Really glad to see everybody seems to be fine with the POV changes, though.

While I'm on the subject, let me ask one more question:

In a different book in the same series, most of it is from three POVs: the mage's, his apprentice's, and the antagonist's. However, very close to the end I've got a few short sections from the POV of the mage's girlfriend, who's never had any other POV scenes. One beta reader thinks I should cut them, but the other one thinks they're fine. How would you all feel about a new POV that close to the end? The girlfriend has been in the story throughout and appears fairly often.

Dragonwriter · Dec 30, 2014

Dancre said:
Well, here's the thing about Editors. They aren't going to clean up your story and slash things out, they are there to show you what you are doing wrong in the novel and then leave it to you to fix it. before dolling out the money, you might want to get references first. The editor shouldn't be slashing things out, but to show you how to improve the novel. Be careful. Don't get ripped off.

I'm not getting ripped off. The editor is someone I know personally, I've worked with him before on paid projects (and he's the editor on the series that my upcoming published game-universe book will be part of). He's got a very good reputation in the genre I work in, and we work well together.

ETA: I just did a search on his name here to see if he showed up--I didn't realize one of the anthology books he co-edited was nominated for a Hugo.

Yeah, not worried.

Roxxsmom · Dec 30, 2014

Dragonwriter said:
It's not so much that I'm worried about some of the books being multi-POV while others are single. What concerns me more is that the book in question used to be all in Character A (Jason)'s POV, but Jason isn't the MC of the series even though this particular book is really more his story. By adding more chapters to bring Character B (Stone, who's the series MC) in earlier, I'm currently looking at this structure:

Prologue, Jason, Stone, Jason, Stone (alternating to chapter 15), then Jason, Jason, Jason, etc. until the end.

Stone still appears in the story as prominently as Jason, but none of the chapters after the early alternating ones are in Stone's POV.

I've read series of books where the number of pov characters expands as the author goes, and I've also read ones where the actual protagonist switches. It's not unusual in fantasy. If you're selling it as a tightly tied together trilogy, it might seem odd, but if it's a series where each story is fairly self contained while leading to the next, things can really change and evolve as the story unfolds.

An example of a three book fantasy series where each has a different main/pov character is Lois McMaster Bujold's the "Chalion" series, The Curse of Chalion, The Paladin of Souls, and the Hallowed Hunt.

Dragonwriter · Jan 1, 2015

Bufty said:
You are self-publishing, you had a long exchange in July about a Query Letter, you are not concerned about word length and you intend having the novel professionally edited.

Yeah, I was on the fence for a long time about which way I wanted to go.

When I was asking about the query letter, I had sent the manuscript out to Angry Robot's Open Call, and I wanted to see how it did. Problem was, they took a year to get around to rejecting it. I'm not a kid anymore, and I realized in the intervening year that what I really want is to get the books out there for people to read. I am also in a situation right now where I can afford a pro editor and a pro cover artist for the whole series, so I'm taking advantage of that. In other words, I've finally tipped over the cliff and decided that I want to commit fully to self-pubbing instead of taking the indeterminate amount of time required to find out if trade publishers are interested in my stuff.

Dragonwriter · Jan 1, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
I've read series of books where the number of pov characters expands as the author goes, and I've also read ones where the actual protagonist switches. It's not unusual in fantasy. If you're selling it as a tightly tied together trilogy, it might seem odd, but if it's a series where each story is fairly self contained while leading to the next, things can really change and evolve as the story unfolds.

Initially it was supposed to be a trilogy, but I had so much fun writing them that I decided I'd rather just make them into a series. But even within the trilogy, each one is a self-contained story, mostly (you still pretty much need to know what happened in the ones before to make full sense of the overarching story, but each one has a definite beginning, middle, and end.)

greendrake · Jan 2, 2015

Seems like you can do it if each chapter is satisfying, and the overall direction is clear.

katiemac · Jan 4, 2015

To play devil's advocate, maybe the first book isn't in fact necessary to the trilogy at hand and is backstory (prequel).

Dragonwriter · May 4, 2015

Back again, and stumped. I'm running into more problems with my POVs--my editor pointed out that my two timelines at the beginning of the book are wildly divergent, and he's right. I plotted them out, and the most I can compress one character's timeline takes it down to a little less than two weeks, while the other character's timeline is two days (and can't be stretched out).

The first character is performing an investigation, so he needs to go places, check things out, and consult with people. All of that takes time, especially since he doesn't really want to get involved initially. He's drawn in due to both curiosity and a connection he discovers during his investigation.

The second character gets a phone call that spurs him to action and he heads off immediately to deal with the situation. Things move fast for him since his sister is missing and he doesn't have time to sit on his hands.

The two characters meet at the end of the second character's second night, after the first has been on the case for a couple of weeks.

I've been alternating chapters and not worrying much about the timeline issue until they converge. Once they do, the second character will be the primary POV character, with two or three chapters from the first character. They'll mostly be together from that point forward, and there won't be any more timeline issues.

Can I do that? I know people were saying earlier that if you make it work readers will roll with it, and I do think it works. But is it just too big a disparity to expect readers to swallow? Would it be acceptable to put dates/timestamps on the chapters until the two meet, then just stop with it?

Thanks for any advice--this really has me stumped.

JalexM · May 4, 2015

It can work, just don't make it seem like they're both happening at the same time. I forgot what book I read were they had multiple POVs but at the end of it, the characters converged with each other. It might of been a book in the wheel of times series.

POV question: Can I get away with this?

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

practical experience, FTW

Just have fun.

Just have fun.

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

Where have the last ten years gone?

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

Just have fun.

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

Beastly Fido

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain

Five by Five

Fluorescent Pudding-Brain