50 Shades of Grey?

VanessaNorth

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I'm a first-person narrative hater. First person books get about three paragraphs to not piss me off before they hit the DNF pile. (I realize that many people do first person incredibly well. IMO, whatshername who wrote this book is not one of them)

I DNF'd it. Barely started it. She was talking about her hair or something in the opening paragraph? Yeah, cause hair, something most of us have, is a real winning hook. :p

But hey, lots of people love first person. Lots of people love the idea of kinky sex but can't get around the idea of it being normal fantasy, so this is a wildly successful "naughty" book, so my opinion is worth absolutely... nothing.

And, if it means people are actually going to be down with recommending erotica and erotic romances to each other on Facebook? Awesome.
 

Silver-Midnight

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And, if it means people are actually going to be down with recommending erotica and erotic romances to each other on Facebook? Awesome.

This is both a good and bad thing though.

Good: This definitely helps the erotica genre. Even though it possibly only helps the writers in BDSM, progress is still progress. Plus, on top of that, this could help take away from some of the stigma that Erotica gets.

Bad: There's the small chance that someone will think that all erotica is like Fifty Shades of Grey, which is obviously isn't, and will not want to try it. I know that you can't make a reader out of every single person. However, while with some, the stigma Erotica has can diminish, the same stigma has the same chances of becoming worse with others.

So, it can, all in all, be a double-edged sword. Fifty Shades doing well can help and hurt, and I'm not saying all of this because I have anything against the author. But,....yeah.
 

Satori1977

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But is it really a win? From what I've heard, here and elsewhere, and from the excerpts I've seen, it's pretty crappy writing in general. So while it may be a win that something deemed "erotica" is being noted by lists, it's still crappy porn. Which means that people will still equate erotica with crappy porn.


It's not a win. It makes us look bad in the eyes of the buying public and critical reviewers. When we could otherwise point out the real merits of our own work, we're left explaining this pile of putrescence.

I got a chapter in to FSoG, and gave up: it really is horrible writing, and the characters set back the erotic romance genre at least 30 years.

This is pretty much how I see about it. From what little I have read, the writing is poor. Now, I am all for getting people to read, but erotica and romance writers already have somewhat bad reputations in the public. Even some publishers and authors claim it isn't "real writing". Something like this makes us look bad. Sorry, but that is my opinion. Plus, it seems to have a bad portrayal of the BDSM lifestyle, which I don't appreciate.

But I haven't read the whole thing, only bits and pieces, and don't plan on shelling out $10 for it. So take that for what it is worth.
 

bettielee

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But is it really a win? From what I've heard, here and elsewhere, and from the excerpts I've seen, it's pretty crappy writing in general. So while it may be a win that something deemed "erotica" is being noted by lists, it's still crappy porn. Which means that people will still equate erotica with crappy porn.

It's a win because it has a readership, a huge number of people both read and loved these books.

...and there are a lot of super popular books with really mediocre writing. And you can't deny what Twilight did for paranormal YA, despite it's questionable characterization and writing.
 

Torgo

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My girlfriend - who edits literary fiction - is reading this right now. I believe her last words to me on the subject were 'Holy Moly, is it hot in here?'. The other day she told me I was never allowed to read it. Basically, she's having an awesome time with it.
 

veinglory

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...and there are a lot of super popular books with really mediocre writing. And you can't deny what Twilight did for paranormal YA, despite it's questionable characterization and writing.

The questions was whether it was a "win". And I think money, fame, huge sakes and a deal with Random house probably qualifies.

As to the writing, if a lot of people enjoy reading it, it is probably adequate. She, like myself, might not have critical acclaim as a goal.

I have no plans to read it as it is not in any of my areas of interest. But I do think there is some sour-grapiness about some of the response to this book.

She worked out how to leverage a fanfic fanbase and a popular erotic trope to almost-overnight success. I think that's pretty impressive.
 

Another

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"The Fuss"

I'm reading it now after hearing so much about it. I just had to know what the fuss was about! I'm about 100 pages in, and m just not compelled to continue reading. I'll finish it eventually, but it's not the page turner that the news made it out be, at least in my opinion!

One observer believes "the fuss" may be an attraction to the book among young women and men swept up in depersonalized sex fostered by the boom in internet porn and, to some degree, recent TV portraits of women. Frank Bruni writing in the NY Times claims the giving over of the book's female character to an older dominant via a contract specifying everything from waxing to hygiene to working out is symptomatic of a larger befuddlement among youth about female sexual roles. As with any such articles reviewing the state of society and role of the media in reflecting and shaping same, there seem to be grains of truth mixed with strained connections. Still, it’s thought provoking:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/o...sex.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=the bleaker sex&st=cse
 

Lady Goddess

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One observer believes "the fuss" may be an attraction to the book among young women and men swept up in depersonalized sex fostered by the boom in internet porn and, to some degree, recent TV portraits of women. Frank Bruni writing in the NY Times claims the giving over of the book's female character to an older dominant via a contract specifying everything from waxing to hygiene to working out is symptomatic of a larger befuddlement among youth about female sexual roles. As with any such articles reviewing the state of society and role of the media in reflecting and shaping same, there seem to be grains of truth mixed with strained connections. Still, it’s thought provoking:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/o...sex.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=the bleaker sex&st=cse

I thought "Girls" was about finding out the harsh reality of being in a "Sex in the City" situation. :|a Interesting.

I don't know why this book was written. I don't know why women are attracted to it. There will always be theories backed up by research. But I do know one thing: this too shall pass.
 

fourlittlebees

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Will have to close eyes before I hit post.

Her goal? Money and fame. That's all. Any doubts and you can follow the trail she left behind while she was still writing fan fiction at fanwank or 50 Shades of Pop Culture Theory - archived by a professor who taught a course on fan fiction in which the story was included.

In terms of it being fan fiction, they weren't vampires, but the characterizations are the same: controlling, abusive, stalkery boyfriend with virginal, clueless girlfriend.

I've heard rumors that sales of erotica are seeing a halo effect, but I'm not seeing discussion of it yet. What I AM seeing is people calling this a "great intro to BDSM erotica" but any time I hear of any character who is "into BDSM" because he's working out issues or is using it to control someone or is in any way, shape or form NOT following S,S,C, I want to bang my head against a wall, and this set-up is none of those things (i.e. she doesn't want to be spanked but is afraid he'll leave her if she doesn't submit. Uh, something is VERY WRONG HERE).

It's a return to the bodice-ripper era. UGH. UGH. UGH.

And yes, the writing is ATROCIOUS.
 

Another

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Safe, Sane, Consensual

... but any time I hear of any character who is "into BDSM" because he's working out issues or is using it to control someone or is in any way, shape or form NOT following S,S,C, I want to bang my head against a wall, and this set-up is none of those things (i.e. she doesn't want to be spanked but is afraid he'll leave her if she doesn't submit. Uh, something is VERY WRONG HERE) ...

Let’s think about “safe, sane and consensual” as the dictum for acceptable S&M. It’s often used as the supporting rule and kickoff point in the “contract” in S&M stories (as well as in S&M play manuals for those into the scene). But as to “safe and sane,” well, what else would want from any relationship, sexual or otherwise. Would one want to drive, hike, dive, climb, travel or be with anyone in any activity who is unsafe? What is definitive about that guideline? And sane, ditto. The obvious question is safe and sane defined specifically by whom, when and how? A driver may believe a 100 mph drive is perfectly safe, but did the passenger have a say in the speed before setting off or along the way? There’s where we need clarity.

“Consensual” is more interesting. Obviously, if someone is going to tie up another person, whack them with a paddle, whip them, or stick needles into them to name a few apparently “safe and sane” activities one can read about or witness on the web or see in any S&M club in any big city, and do so against the will of the receiver, we have a criminal and prosecutable offense plain and simple. One hardly needs a dictum to spell out that situation. But does consent allow such actions irrespective of context? More to the point, and nowhere addressed in the SSC command, is the situation where submissives “consent” out of a damaged sense of self or need to be punished for imagined sins or, as in “50 Shades,” out of desire to please another at all costs. What does “consent” mean in such a situation? The context of choice matters, just as it does when women around the world make “choices” every day to accept sex for money or work in wretched conditions because, well, the alternative is worse still. “Consent” in such situations does not define how we judge the merit or acceptability of the choices made.

In short, the standard saw of SSC seems lacking as a basis for S&M, so inadequate as a clear and worthy guide as to raise the obvious suspicion: how often is SSC really a way for the dominant to feel permitted to do most anything, paper in hand, deal sealed, submissive be dammed?
 

fourlittlebees

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Let’s think about “safe, sane and consensual” as the dictum for acceptable S&M. It’s often used as the supporting rule and kickoff point in the “contract” in S&M stories (as well as in S&M play manuals for those into the scene). But as to “safe and sane,” well, what else would want from any relationship, sexual or otherwise. Would one want to drive, hike, dive, climb, travel or be with anyone in any activity who is unsafe? What is definitive about that guideline? And sane, ditto. The obvious question is safe and sane defined specifically by whom, when and how? A driver may believe a 100 mph drive is perfectly safe, but did the passenger have a say in the speed before setting off or along the way? There’s where we need clarity.

“Consensual” is more interesting. Obviously, if someone is going to tie up another person, whack them with a paddle, whip them, or stick needles into them to name a few apparently “safe and sane” activities one can read about or witness on the web or see in any S&M club in any big city, and do so against the will of the receiver, we have a criminal and prosecutable offense plain and simple. One hardly needs a dictum to spell out that situation. But does consent allow such actions irrespective of context? More to the point, and nowhere addressed in the SSC command, is the situation where submissives “consent” out of a damaged sense of self or need to be punished for imagined sins or, as in “50 Shades,” out of desire to please another at all costs. What does “consent” mean in such a situation? The context of choice matters, just as it does when women around the world make “choices” every day to accept sex for money or work in wretched conditions because, well, the alternative is worse still. “Consent” in such situations does not define how we judge the merit or acceptability of the choices made.

In short, the standard saw of SSC seems lacking as a basis for S&M, so inadequate as a clear and worthy guide as to raise the obvious suspicion: how often is SSC really a way for the dominant to feel permitted to do most anything, paper in hand, deal sealed, submissive be dammed?

Because it's a trust relationship determined by the two people in it. The issue at hand with this book is she really doesn't want to be a sub (so consensual is really right out the window) and he really isn't a Dom (his sane is out there, as he's really an abuser working out his Mommy issues). SSC isn't a way for a Dom to do jack because of safewording, but this Bella... excuse me...Ana... won't safeword because she's afraid he will end their relationship if she does. Which takes the whole safety issue right out of the relationship. There's no contract in play here; no mutual agreement of limitations, of likes and dislikes. You might as well have him beating her with no sex involved, but if you did, no one would buy the book.

As to pp, "halo effect" is when the success of one thing brings a modicum of success to similar items. For example, the success of the iPh0n3 and iP@d brought more sales of Appl3 products in general, like laptops and desktop computers.
 

Lady Goddess

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What I AM seeing is people calling this a "great intro to BDSM erotica" but any time I hear of any character who is "into BDSM" because he's working out issues or is using it to control someone or is in any way, shape or form NOT following S,S,C, I want to bang my head against a wall, and this set-up is none of those things (i.e. she doesn't want to be spanked but is afraid he'll leave her if she doesn't submit. Uh, something is VERY WRONG HERE).

It's a return to the bodice-ripper era. UGH. UGH. UGH.


This is, in no way, a great intro to BDSM erotica. :| Having done research on BDSM for a story that I wrote for a friend, I can tell you that everything that happens is consensual. If the sub doesn't want it, that's what the safe word is for. And the Dom will stop because that's what the safe word is for. The safe word is agreed upon for a reason, and the Dom doesn't hold it against the sub when it's used. :| The hell is wrong with people I don't even

If she's afraid he'll leave her because she doesn't submit that's not BDSM. He's leveraging their relationship through their sex life. It's not love, it's punishment: do this or I'll leave you. And if he's doing all these things to her to work through his Mommy issues, that's definitely abuse, plain and simple. The toys are not toys in this case; they're weapons. His psychological need to control and torture someone to get back at his mother would lead a lot of people to believe he needs to be in jail. In fact he sounds like one of those villains on Law & Order: SVU. Ugh it's making my skin crawl just thinking about it.

And this is supposed to be love? That's disgusting and warped, no matter how many orgasms follows it.

Also lol at bodice ripper. One of my friends just said that to me like five minutes ago. Coincidence? I think so.

And yes, the writing is ATROCIOUS.

Also this. ^ Picked up a copy from my friend this morning. Immediately regretted it within the first page. Although it gives me hope that if she can be published, then so can I. :D
 

Sarah Madara

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It's a return to the bodice-ripper era. UGH. UGH. UGH.

I actually have a much bigger problem with this novel than with the classic bodice-ripper, for two reasons:

1. 50 Shades shows an extremely unbalanced power situation, but the FMC doesn't seem to realize or acknowledge it. In a bodice-ripper, the physical dominance of men and pre-defined gender roles are an explicit part of the fantasy.

2. Bodice-rippers do employ a "her lips said no but her body said yes" kind of fantasy, which many criticize, but I understand its appeal when women face far more repercussions for exercising sexual freedom than men. 50 Shades is completely different because she *REALLY DOESN'T* want to do some of the things they do. She sobs after he spanks her. She is simply putting up with crap for fear of losing a guy that she mistakenly thinks is worth keeping, even though he is a poor hero by either historical or modern standards.

As a woman—not considering what message either fantasy sends, if any, to men—I'd rather read a dubious consent scene that the woman actually enjoys (which has no basis in reality) than a technically consensual scene that leaves the woman feeling empty and demeaned (which is actually pretty damn realistic for too many).
 

Another

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Pondering Points

If I’m reading some of the last posts right, I find three assertions:

- Submissive in 50 Shades is flawed character unwilling to use a safe word for fear of losing her dominant partner, and, ugh, that makes the book unappealing

- Because the submissive is lacking as above, we do not have an SSC relationship. In such a relationship, another poster states “everything that happens is consensual.”

- Further, where SSC is followed, all is well. As one poster puts it, SSC isn’t a way for a dominant to do “jack” because of safewording.

On point one: Bravo to a flawed character. From a fictional standpoint, I would argue a flawed, weak or torn character is more interesting to follow than a steadfast unchanging one, whether in or out of an S&M storyline. At least we can hope for some progression in her or his development, maybe even toward more self-awareness and strength, or as in Story of O, toward the abyss. A stagnant character throughout is hardly worth following, no? So, from the writer’s standpoint, perhaps we should ask not where our characters in 50 Shades are now (whether working on “mommy issues” or having a weak sense of self) but where they might be later, and will they get there in a credible and interesting fashion. And if the characters go nowhere (I have not read the series), then we know the author is feeding us titillation alone, hardly a very satisfying brew for the long haul.

On point two: Having witnessed many S&M sessions and interviewed numerous couples and professionals into the scene as part of my own work on a novel over several years, I found exactly what one would expect from delving into any structured activity between us flawed humans. We may choose to label scenes and interactions and “Subs” and “Doms” following SSC as representing the only “true” and acceptable S&M, but let’s not fool ourselves into believing S&M players have no issues defining, negotiating and sticking to their ground rules. In fact, again, it is precisely the tension between the players around all the cracks and warts of the game which make it rich territory for writers, I contend.

On point three: All is not necessarily well following SSC, as the very novel in question shows. Our submissive is consenting to be with the man in the dominant situation. She is consenting not to use her safeword. She is consenting to go with whatever insane thing her dominant wants. What, in short, does consent or safe or sane mean without a whole person agreeing to the dictum? And if the supposed full proof gateway into acceptable S&M allows for participation by such a character, of what use is it? We may say, well, only whole people play at S&M (false, I’ll contend) or should, but that begs the obvious question: are there not many women, especially young women still finding their way and selves, who are so taken with finding a lover and perhaps also cheered on by peers of like mind as to make the step into an abusive relationship, even of the kind portrayed in 50 Shades? For all the flaws of the book so far discussed, perhaps one point of merit is it forces us to ask this question. I suggest it is a very worthy one to ponder, rather than dismiss it as of no bearing or interest to S&M as it plays in the real world, or an idealized one.
 

Sarah Madara

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This is why it's so hard to say what a book should or shouldn't do, or what makes it disturbing or unhealthy vs. discussion-provoking. Much of that is an impression or opinion, and two people can have opposite impressions of what a book's impact is with neither of them being wrong.

On point one: Bravo to a flawed character. From a fictional standpoint, I would argue a flawed, weak or torn character is more interesting to follow than a steadfast unchanging one, whether in or out of an S&M storyline.

I agree, but my impression from the first book (which, admittedly, I skimmed through parts of because it was unbearable) is that the author is not addressing the flaws in such a way that they become a part of the story. Is it a genius of subtlety or just a bad character? That's a matter of opinion, and mine is that the author failed to assign any meaning or depth to the main character's weakness that would make her journey more interesting. Or more journey-like.

We may choose to label scenes and interactions and “Subs” and “Doms” following SSC as representing the only “true” and acceptable S&M, but let’s not fool ourselves into believing S&M players have no issues defining, negotiating and sticking to their ground rules. In fact, again, it is precisely the tension between the players around all the cracks and warts of the game which make it rich territory for writers, I contend.

On this I completely agree. I have zero expertise in BDSM, but I am confident that all people are flawed, and all people are broken one way or another, and that all relationships involve power negotiations both in and out of the bedroom. Why should a particular kink be exempt?


We may say, well, only whole people play at S&M (false, I’ll contend) or should, but that begs the obvious question: are there not many women, especially young women still finding their way and selves, who are so taken with finding a lover and perhaps also cheered on by peers of like mind as to make the step into an abusive relationship, even of the kind portrayed in 50 Shades? For all the flaws of the book so far discussed, perhaps one point of merit is it forces us to ask this question. I suggest it is a very worthy one to ponder, rather than dismiss it as of no bearing or interest to S&M as it plays in the real world, or an idealized one.

If only the book had been beautifully written, had presented these ideas in some depth... then I would find it more intriguing, because then I would feel the author was inviting discussion.

When people engage in unhealthy or self-destructive behaviors, it is always an opportunity for society to examine what that means, why they do it, what makes people tick, etc. But when fictional characters are stupidly flawed, I expect the book to acknowledge those flaws. I still look to books for inspiration, and if the author seems oblivious to the problems in her own characters, if she seems to hold up a relationship as an ideal that I find really sad, then that doesn't hold water as any kind of literature for me.

Maybe it's some post-modern work of art.

Or maybe it's just bad writing.

But I AM glad that the flaws of the book's characters are being discussed, because I think it gets us to examine human relationships, and hopefully to talk more openly about the potential that sex has to be beautiful (corny but true), and to connect, and to nourish. The more people recognize what feels broken to them about 50 Shades, the more they can articulate what makes sex good and why. I do think one of the functions of erotica is to use relationships and emotions to remind us that sex is more than just mechanics.
 

Another

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Sarah writes,

"If only the book had been beautifully written, had presented these [its] ideas in some depth... then I would find it more intriguing..."

Indeed, my mission these past 5 years and, I'm guessing, yours.
 

Sarah Madara

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Another interesting reaction in Newsweek/Daily Beast:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/04/15/working-women-s-fantasies.html

In the brilliant last paragraph, the author analyzes the 50 Shades/submissive fantasy craze as follows:

"[...]what gives it its true edge of desperation, and end-of-the-world ambience, is that millions of otherwise intelligent women are willing to tolerate prose on this level. "

:roll:
 

Katie Elle

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I went to the shops yesterday and there's the 2nd two 50 Shades books sitting there on the shelf, plus an empty spot where the first one sold out. I can't help but think something known as erotica showing up in the supermarket is a plus.
 

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I have not read the series and based on what I've read in this thread I probably won't. But several of the women in my office have read it and they love it. What I kept hearing from them is how hot the sex scenes are and how they love the straight forward sex talk. They want adult language about sex not purple pose.


A couple have made the comment that they didn't really care for the way he is controling her, but they were skipping over some of those parts just to get to the sex scenes. It all about the sex scenes. IMHO, I think the soccer moms who have latched onto these books are just looking for adult stories with hardcore sex scenes. Hopefully, it will encourage them to look for better books in the genre.
 

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I went to the shops yesterday and there's the 2nd two 50 Shades books sitting there on the shelf, plus an empty spot where the first one sold out. I can't help but think something known as erotica showing up in the supermarket is a plus.

I saw on a news show today that the first book is still on the Best Sellers List. And I think the books are within the Top Ten slots are at Amazon.
 

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A couple have made the comment that they didn't really care for the way he is controling her, but they were skipping over some of those parts just to get to the sex scenes. It all about the sex scenes. IMHO, I think the soccer moms who have latched onto these books are just looking for adult stories with hardcore sex scenes. Hopefully, it will encourage them to look for better books in the genre.

I've made lots of book recommendations over the past two weeks. I know some people who don't read much, but latched onto 50 Shades and now want more (yay!). A friend of mine admitted, "Maybe I'm a romance reader after all" because she enjoyed 50 Shades so much, so I steered her toward other, better books.
 

LiteraryLiz

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Well, because of the reviews on Amazon, excerpts I've read, and this thread, I won't be buying it. I'm too cheap to spend ten bucks on something that I'm pretty sure I won't enjoy. If the lead character is anything like Bella then I will definitely pass. I've never read a more revoltingly stupid female MC in my life and hope to never repeat the experience.

I enjoy a naive, innocent girl and a strong, take charge kinda guy as much as the next girl but it seems that many authors take those qualities and morph them into undesireable characters. The female lead ends up stupid, flighty, clumsy, indecisive, insecure, emotionally fragile, etc...while the male lead winds up cruel, snarky, hard, overbearing, munipulative, emotionally unavailable or unstable, etc. It's frustrating to want to read a good story and be unable to have any respect for the characters at all.