Replace dialogue tags (said, answered, replied, asked) with...?

Adding said-bookisms doesn't make a story more interesting. Removing them doesn't make a story more boring. Like any spice, said-bookisms and adverbs should be used sparingly. I think that's all we're saying here.

cameronknight said:

Hey, just leaping onto the bandwagon here. I asked my daughter (18 years old, smart girl, A student, avid reader of the usual YA fodder) her opinion and explained the generally accepted view of said-bookisms and tom swifties. She blinked a couple of times, stared at me for a moment, then said "That's stupid." I asked her to elucidate. She marched up to her room and brought down an armful of books: Harry Potter, Twilight, New Moon and the like. She unloaded them onto the coffee table and started to flip through, citing many, MANY examples of the afore-mentioned -isms and -ifties. Then she folded her arms and declared "If all these books only used 'said', they would never have been published because they would be so boring nobody would read them!" She then added "If said-bookisms aren't allowed then why were these published and furthermore, why are they the absolute top bestsellers in their genre?!"

Just thought you guys might like the current opinion from a recent high school grad ... not saying i agree with her ... but it's interesting to get a reader's thoughts.


Cam.

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Yes, the examples she used are GREAT for things other than "said"... which is one reason so many people say they're good stories and horribly written.

Some of my favorite authors, NEVER use dialogue tags. In fact, they don't even use quotation marks.

James Frey and Cormac McCarthy.

Dialogue tags (even the acceptable ones) are evil.

Actually that's a good point - I just finished reading "Blindness" by Jose Saramago and whoa - it has not only no tags and no quotation marks, but no paragraphing, no indicators of who is speaking - and no character names! It really took a bit of getting used to.

James81 said:

Some of my favorite authors, NEVER use dialogue tags. In fact, they don't even use quotation marks.

James Frey and Cormac McCarthy.

Dialogue tags (even the acceptable ones) are evil.

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Of course, in The Road, McCarthy gets away with that because there are really only two speaking characters in the entire book, apart from a few walk-ons.

It strikes me that writers at the literary end of the spectrum often use exuberant and flashy dialogue tags, and with more intent than just to vary using "said" all the time.

Dialogue tags may be evil if you are writing something where you are trying to make the narrator as invisible as possible and focus on "showing" action. But not in all cases.

cameronknight said:

..."If all these books only used 'said', they would never have been published because they would be so boring nobody would read them!"...

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So is she saying these books are only readable because of the rule-breaking, as opposed to non-essentials like a coherent storyline and a sense of coherence?

scarletpeaches said:

So is she saying these books are only readable because of the rule-breaking, as opposed to non-essentials like a coherent storyline and a sense of coherence?

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Which rule was broken?

Cheers,
Rob

Read this post and work it out for yourself.

Aschenbach said:

Of course, in The Road, McCarthy gets away with that because there are really only two speaking characters in the entire book, apart from a few walk-ons.

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No Country for Old Men was an AWESOME book (and an even better movie) and the dialogue worked fine with it too.

This style works when there are only two people talking at any given time.

scarletpeaches said:

Read this post and work it out for yourself.

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I've seen the post. No rule was broken.

Cheers,
Rob

So you've decided no rules was broken but you still wanted me to explain it for you?

scarletpeaches said:

So you've decided no rules was broken but you still wanted me to explain it for you?

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I'm challenging your assertion that a rule was broken. All I wanted you to do was tell me which rule you thought had been.

Cheers,
Rob

My post did not mention the word "rule". All I said was "generally accepted view". My daughter's point, I think, was not so much "why were they published" as much as "why are they runaway bestsellers".

Interesting thing happened this morning: I was on the train, sitting opposite two middle-aged women, both of whom were reading Twilight. At regular intervals they each broke out into fits of giggling. Then, one of them suddenly burst out "Oh my God! This is SO well-written!"

...

(I paused there for dramatic effect)

As well, my son (who is still in school) informs me that Twilight is on the reading list for English Literature, alongside such titles as Life of Pi and Oryx and Crake. Naturally, when faced with which book to use for their essay questions, as my son says "all the girls choose Twilight."

What this all boils down to, I'm still not quite sure. Whether it is a case of "literature" being steadily "dumbed down" to accommodate the gaming and internet generation, on the premise that as long as they're reading something, the quality is not that important ... or whether it's a fashion reversal in which said-bookisms are gradually finding favour again in popular fiction, I don't know ... but it certainly doesn't seem to be a rule.

cameronknight: But perhaps, it is DESPITE Meyer's use of said-bookisms, and not BECAUSE of it, that her books are doing well? Perhaps the books would have done even better without said-bookisms?

cameronknight said:

What this all boils down to, I'm still not quite sure. Whether it is a case of "literature" being steadily "dumbed down" to accommodate the gaming and internet generation, on the premise that as long as they're reading something, the quality is not that important ... or whether it's a fashion reversal in which said-bookisms are gradually finding favour again in popular fiction, I don't know ... but it certainly doesn't seem to be a rule.

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*reins in typing fingers*

If I answer this; then I'll start another Smeyer thread. Can't do it.. won't.. not gonna... nope...

CK, read Twilight yourself. Read some of SM's comments about it. Read others' impressions of it - AFTER the initial "OMG I finally got MY copy and read it in one night" rush has passed.

The short answers are SM got lucky; her timing in the market was PERFECT. She snuck a 3rd rate 1st draft manuscript under the door that an editor could have made into a wonderful book, but didn't. The publicity machine turned into a hyped up phenomenon. It has nothing to do with content or quality.

And if it's a public school that's got Twilight on its list, well.. duh. They'll pick any book a kid is likely to read.

This thread could go on for another five pages, and I don't think anyone's mind is going to change on their opinion of saidisms.

Perhaps it's time to move along?

Well. My condensed opinion on the matter is, if you need to tell the reader how something is said, your dialogue isn't working hard enough.

And that's about it, really. *shrug*

dpaterso said:

You don't like watching train wrecks? <innocently>

-Derek

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I've seen this particular train wreck more than once. I'll wait for the sequel.

scarletpeaches said:

Well. My condensed opinion on the matter is, if you need to tell the reader how something is said, your dialogue isn't working hard enough.

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See, that's a broadstroke opinion for something that is a case by case kind of thing.

Most dialogue doesn't need a tag (unless it's unclear who is saying it), but sometimes there is dialogue (that is very necessary to the convo) that not only needs a tag, but also needs a little emphasis on how it is said.

I'd throw out examples, but someone already did that earlier and someone came in and just picked it apart.

ChaosTitan said:

I've seen this particular train wreck more than once. I'll wait for the sequel.

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Is that the one where we have a thirty-member dogpile over outlines, prologues, fanfic and head-jumping?

And I warn you now
There will be twunt paste.