Help me with my pitbull prejudice, please

Perks, it sounds like a very complex situation. I’ll share some of my experience with my rescue pit. He’s the sweetest, dopey dog ever. He came from a very bad situation. He almost died as pup from parvo, was exposed to meth lab fumes, left to live in his own mess, fed erratically and not consistently.

When we got him, he was very scared. He hid all the time, slunk around on his belly like he expected punishment. It took a year before he came out of his shell. He still cringes if someone yells and we’ve had him about 10 yrs now.

My husband and I used to work with someone who has owned lots of pits over the years. One thing we have all agreed on is that pit bulls need a strong leader. That person at our house is first my husband. All animals (and children) respect his authority, even if he has not met them prior. Pits often tend to have a very high prey drive and they will fixate very easily, which can be dangerous. Mine gets worked up about cats and other small animals. When he starts to fixate, I have to physically break his line of sight because he won’t listen. We watch for it and nip it in the bud very early. There are also times where he is just a grumpy ol’ cuss. We have two other indoor dogs and some days he doesn’t seem to get along with anyone. When that happens, I give him private time in his crate in my room where it is quiet and dim.

Now one of the things I wonder about is what situation this pit you are dealing with is from. It may be that he is not very good at interacting with people and may not know how. His owner really should know what skills he is lacking and be working on those. The owner should also be making the introductions between dog and people. I’m more concerned that this poor pit has an inadequate owner and may pay the price for that.

I’d love to meet the poor doggie and see for myself. It’s hard to say without doing that. Our dog, despite all his faults and my dad’s vehement statements that we needed to be rid of him once we started having children, has been the very best with the kids. He’s been highlighted and had chocolate syrup poured all over him (he didn’t eat it) in fits of toddler inspiration. The oldest, as a very young toddler, once grabbed him by the man berries and he didn’t do more than yelp until help arrived and fled the living room once he was free. I couldn’t ask for a better dog than that.

Perks said:

Hmmm. That's an interesting question. He did not seem to enjoy eye contact. If we caught eyes, I noticed yesterday that he immediately slid his gaze off to the side. He would let me pet him, but didn't seem eager for it for sure.

Click to expand...

This sounds almost like he feels like you rank above him and he'll meet you eyes briefly but he doesn't want to hold your gaze because that is a challenge. Unless it comes across as blowing you off. Then it's much more dangerous.

Dogs have a whole range of personalities like people do. Some are shy, some are bold, some like a quiet life, some like to be outgoing ALL THE TIME!!!!!

It really is a judgement thing. He might not feel comfortable with strangers right away. Some dogs feel more comfortable with children over adults.

You might google some information on dog body language. It can tell you quite a bit.

I have a neighbor who walks her large pit bull when I'm taking my walk sometimes. Or rather, the dog walks her. It is a powerful, potentially deadly animal that she's endangering me with since she clearly can't control it. I usually stop and glare at her but she's too busy being pulled around by the dog to notice. The other day it was sitting at the end of her driveway alone, without a leash. Maybe it ate her.

Is it possible that he's used to hanging out with dogs but not socialised with humans? So is unsure how to 'read' us?

Perks said:

He would let me pet him, but didn't seem eager for it for sure.

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure I'd pet this dog. I'd stand my ground upright and calm. Show him who's in charge asap. Make him earn my pet.

I'm sorry you're going through this, Perks. I know how scary it can be to have your kids around a dog you don't know much about and who seems a little different from other dogs you've met, and especially such a large, powerful dog. It's not that they're inherently more aggressive than other dogs, but the consequences of their particular aggression are so much more lethal. I don't think you should feel guilty at all for acknowledging that. It's not prejudice; it's just common sense. I grew up with dogs, I've mostly always had a dog, and all my friends and family have dogs, so I get a lot of dog exposure... but I'm far from any sort of expert (or even competent) at training or dog behavior. So noting that, these are just my experiences.

Something I notice from walking my dog, who is a 60-lb border collie mix...

When we walk, she picks up on my body language. Sometimes, various houses in my neighborhood will have dogs in the front yard, off leash, and they'll come running when we get close. If I tense up and get nervous as a dog approaches, my dog does, too. If, however, I act casually and enthusiastically greet the dog bounding toward us, my dog is playfully excited. She takes her cues from me as to whether we need to be on guard.

I know you said it's more the kids you worry about, and the only thing I can suggest there is to try to help them overcome that fear and treat the dog like it's no big thing. If your neighbor is willing, I'd just work on socialization with other dogs that frequent your house, and I'd have you and the kids interact with him more in a supervised setting. That way you might get the chance to observe more of his behavior and figure out what's what with him in a setting where you feel the kids are safer.

Perks said:

I just hate this worry. If my youngest has established a good relationship with the dog, that's great and makes me happy. But I'd be happier if his owner didn't tell me that she's taught my daughter to shove him down or out of the way when he's being a nuisance.

Click to expand...

This concerns me, actually. I don't have any professional basis for not liking it, but my personal experience has been negative. My dog isn't aggressive, but she is extremely willful. While we were working out our power dynamic, someone with more dog experience (I thought) told me to put her in a submissive pose, and I'd read that on the internet, too. So I tried it, and while she tolerated it, she did not like it at all. And I felt, at the time, that she was actually starting to border the line of becoming aggressive because I was pushing her down. I felt like it was damaging our relationship, and it was just a negative thing, all around. It's hard to explain because she was never actually aggressive with me... but I could feel something changing in her, and it wasn't good. So I abandoned that and started with leash correction, which we've had much more success with. She's still very willful at times, but we manage and she's never gotten anywhere close to a state of what I interpreted as not liking me very much. It was a night and day difference.

Now, I've trained her, through repetition, to move out of my way when I say, "Beep, beep." I'd rather see the owner have a verbal command that means "move" rather than having a child physically move the dog. That seems like a situation that could get ugly very quickly and with no (human perceivable) warning.

For what it's worth, my dog chases cats and critters that run from her. Even so, she's never been aggressive with a human or really another dog (though we do have some embarrassing barking in specific social situations).

She also doesn't come when I call her—though she does look at me when I say her name. And she's still not aggressive—she just has her own ideas about what she wants to be doing, which is a problem in itself, just not an aggression one.

Perks said:

And now, Sirra, who just doesn't slot in anywhere in my experience of dogs and certainly not the dogs around here. I might try the dog treat thing (after I ask the owner, of course.) Best case is that Sirra just needs to get used to his new home and feel part of the family.

Click to expand...

Having been around dogs, you probably already know this, but I just wanted to remind you in case. I'd try the treats, but I'd give the first few treats supervised, and I'd make sure the kids know the proper way to give a treat. I've been around dogs who absolutely love people but were extremely food motivated and snapped up things offered to them. Make sure they're not holding treats out in their fingers. (My dog had a problem with being too rough when she was little, and I had to teach her to be "gentle" when taking treats.)

Perks said:

Hmmm. That's an interesting question. He did not seem to enjoy eye contact. If we caught eyes, I noticed yesterday that he immediately slid his gaze off to the side. He would let me pet him, but didn't seem eager for it for sure.

Click to expand...

My dog and I have contention over the eye-balling thing, especially if I have food. She's not supposed to pester me for food off my plate—I give her the last bite or I put some of what I'm eating in her bowl afterward. So when she starts staring at me while I'm eating, I stare back at her. After a few seconds, she'll give up and look away and then lie down. But if I look away first, she'll still sit there and crowd me while I'm eating and even get more insistent about getting my food. And I think she feels free to do that because she won the stare down.

Gringa said:

I'm not so sure I'd pet this dog. I'd stand my ground upright and calm. Show him who's in charge asap. Make him earn my pet.

Click to expand...

It's possible that he just doesn't want a pet. My dog is that way sometimes. She'll let you pet her, and there are specific times during the day that she wants it (strictly, when she wakes up, after work, after dinner, and bedtime), but other times she acts exactly like a teenager who doesn't want to hug you in front of her friends. She'll grudgingly let you love on her for a little while, but then she'll get up and brush you off and go sit out of reach because she just doesn't want to be handled right then. But during those periods, she's still quite happy to be in the same room with you.

Good luck!

I'm adding my vote to the "trust your gut" crowd.

Re: your concerns with pitbull prejudice, forget them. This isn't a breed issue, this is an issue with an individual dog. I worked in a vets office for years and if there's one thing I learned, its that asshole dogs come in all shapes and sizes. Yes, most pits (and most dogs for that matter) are wonderful sweet critters, but that doesn't mean every single one is. Every breed has its bad apples.

Sometimes we'd get a dog that gave off a weird vibe, no growling or overt behavior that would make us think the dog was mean, maybe it just had a funny look in its eyes or it seemed unusually tense. We learned to listen to our instincts. A dog like that might behave for half the exam, then suddenly try to kill us. That's why we'd muzzle any animal that seemed off. Muzzling doesn't hurt the dog, and if it stays calm and behaves, no harm done. If they go nuts, it saves us a trip to the hospital, or at the very least a minor wound that makes work painful for the next few days. As my boss always said, "I'll muzzle a hamster if it gives me the stinkeye."

The behavior you've described are subtle warning signs and you're right to be concerned.

P.S. It's nice that the dog is sweet to the horses, but a dog's behavior with one species is not a good predictor of its behavior with another species. Just ask anyone who's ever had a dog that was wonderful with people and other dogs but would kill a cat on sight.

I had one of those. Hated cats with a real malevolence. I had to be constantly on guard.

I just want to point back to the growling at your teen. It doesn't matter how subtle it was. That was aggression.

I personally take the position that dogs that aggress towards humans should never be left unsupervised around children. Furthermore, if they are around children then they should be 100% under the owner's control.

I also don't try to physically displace dogs that have a history of aggression. It is too easy for them to decide not to play ball and then I'm in a dangerous position because of my proximity to them. Tell a child to push the dog? Never.

It might seem like a bit of an overreaction but keep in mind that, with animals, it takes only one mistake for someone to end up hurt.

And, the stable next door? Is she just keeping her own horses, or does she board for other people?
Because the dog may get along with horses now, or horses it knows and likes, but dogs attack livestock often enough that I wouldn't really trust a territorial/aggressive/prey driven/'had a weird vibe' dog with other mammals. Rhinos maybe, they have sturdy hides.
If anything happens to someone else's horse while in her care, I doubt she has enough insurance to keep her afloat.

Perks said:

No, she boards and trains quite a few horses that belong to other people.

Click to expand...

Let's hope her dog likes all of them. And their riders.

I think your doubts about this dog are quite reasonable, and it's not just because it's a pitbull. Any large dog that acted the way this one does should be suspect, and the owner seems equally dubious. No control over her dog, no concern about that? And, already on prickly terms with her neighbors, I gather?

heza said:

This concerns me, actually. I don't have any professional basis for not liking it, but my personal experience has been negative. My dog isn't aggressive, but she is extremely willful. While we were working out our power dynamic, someone with more dog experience (I thought) told me to put her in a submissive pose, and I'd read that on the internet, too. So I tried it, and while she tolerated it, she did not like it at all. And I felt, at the time, that she was actually starting to border the line of becoming aggressive because I was pushing her down. I felt like it was damaging our relationship, and it was just a negative thing, all around. It's hard to explain because she was never actually aggressive with me... but I could feel something changing in her, and it wasn't good. So I abandoned that and started with leash correction, which we've had much more success with. She's still very willful at times, but we manage and she's never gotten anywhere close to a state of what I interpreted as not liking me very much. It was a night and day difference.

Click to expand...

The dominance thing is based on a study of what happens when you put a bunch of unrelated adults wolves together in a small enclosure. A strict dominance hierarchy appeared as a way for the wolves to cope with a stressful situation they'd never usually be in. It's known this isn't how wild wolves (or related captive wolves) behave to each other. It's also known that dogs aren't identical to wolves in their behaviour. But there are still dog trainers who push this as the way to train dogs, based on those old studies.

What's known now is a wild wolf pack is a family. The alphas are usually the parents, because they're older and more experienced. So there isn't a constant battle for dominance going on. This doesn't mean wolves and dogs don't need discipline, but they need more the sort of thing a parent offers. Humans acting like they're stressed wolves in a small enclosure is asking for trouble, as it sends the wrong message about the situation.

Listen to your instinct.

Dogs live in a pack world. This means they need to be above or beneath everyone else in their world - human or dog alike.

If the dog is not getting the necessary dominance at home - and I don't mean in a bad way - it will dominate. Once it believes it's the one in charge, your kids will be seen as a threat, as will you or anyone else who comes onto the property.

I love dogs. All dogs. It's their owners that I sometimes dislike because they don't know how to correctly handle their dogs.

Pitbulls are strong dogs with a bite that can break bones.

If you were talking about a chihuahua I would not be concerned. You are talking about a powerful breed, bred for fighting, that can easily maim or kill a child.

I would cancel the horse riding lessons or change to another stable unless the owner takes care of the dog. He should not be walking unleashed, and should not be roaming the farm extending his dominance to those he comes across.

Send a message to the stable owner about his dog and his responsibility as a dog owner.

The safety of your children is first and foremost.

Brightdreamer said:

I'm seeing red flags all over this dog's behavior, pit bull or not. I'm also seeing bigger red flags over the behavior of the owners, who sound uninterested in training or controlling the animal, and who don't seem to be taking these issues seriously. (How did they get their hands on a rescue? Was this a legitimate group? Something smells iffy, here...)

If I were you, I'd trust my instincts, here. Caution is advised. Possibly pepper spray, and a speed-dial on animal control.

Click to expand...

THIS. So much.

(Although, pepper spray will not deter an attacking pit bull.)

If pepper spray doesn't work, it might be useful to know how to break up a pitbull fight.

I'd always been told to put your fingers behind the dog's back teeth and basically gag them so they open their jaws. I didn't know there were tools specifically designed to pry dog's jaws open.

Just sharing: I've always heard to spray with a water hose to break up a fight.

Gringa said:

Just sharing: I've always heard to spray with a water hose to break up a fight.

Click to expand...

The problem with dogs that have been bred to fight - like the pitbull - is these simple distraction techniques do not work.

These dogs clamp on and will not let go until the other "dog" is "dead." That's bred into them, and you won't get them to let go by simply spraying with pepper spray or a water hose.

Dogs that are fighting less seriously can easily be broken apart by many means. Dogs that fight to kill their opponent cannot.

A rescued male pit bull recently moved into my neighborhood. It has grown increasingly aggressive toward my dog over the past few months, lunging and staring at my dog like it is a steak dinner. The owner willingly moves to the side of the road or trails to let others pass, but he can barely control the animal when it lunges.

My dog is well socialized, well trained, and does not bark. Like many other dog walkers in the area, I have changed walking routes because it's pretty clear the pit bull is going to snap one of these days.

I know people say pit bulls can be good family pets, but I don't want my dog to be the victim that proves them wrong.

Lady MacBeth said:

A rescued male pit bull recently moved into my neighborhood. It has grown increasingly aggressive toward my dog over the past few months, lunging and staring at my dog like it is a steak dinner. The owner willingly moves to the side of the road or trails to let others pass, but he can barely control the animal when it lunges.

My dog is well socialized, well trained, and does not bark. Like many other dog walkers in the area, I have changed walking routes because it's pretty clear the pit bull is going to snap one of these days.

I know people say pit bulls can be good family pets, but I don't want my dog to be the victim that proves them wrong.

Click to expand...

I wonder if this is a case where the rescue people, trained, with experience, were able to handle and control the dog, making it appear 'adoptable', while the new owner doesn't have the skills or the temperament to do that, and the dog
is taking advantage of that lack of ability?

Pits can be very willful, stubborn dogs. If you don't have an owner capable of handling that, then you are going to have problems, especially with a rescue pet. They are terriers and terriers have certain traits in common.

We work hard to be responsible with ours and I know so many people that don't and then wonder what happened.

I have three rescue pit crosses (supposedly with catahoula, if the vet is correct, making it a much tougher dog--often used in fighting). They're what are deemed "red line dogs" meaning they can snap at a moment's notice. I love them to pieces, but I don't have any illusions about what they're capable of. While they were growing up, there was a fight among them every week. I was a regular at the vet for stitches and puncture wounds. The first fight was nerve-wracking. By the thirtieth, I was pretty much calm and knew exactly how to break them up. After studying up on both breeds, I learned the problem was there were two "heir apparents" for the dominant female. So I had to take over the role as alpha. My previous dogs were very mellow and happy together. These are too . . . now. But nobody else gets to watch them except the vet, who they respect. Not even his staff can be alone with them. They're well trained with hubby and I but very willful.

If you have the opportunity, Perks, I would suggest the following:

With the owner's permission, you need to get the trust of this dog, because you're the alpha of your "pack." Find a place in your own yard where you can sit down on the ground near the dog. Sit down with your back to the dog. This will make the dog curious and come sniff you. Above all, have NO FEAR when you sit down. Sit down with the thought that "this is my house, my home. I own this place." The dog will get that. He'll know he's a guest.

Just sit quietly and then lift up one arm, with a bent elbow, like you know your own dog would come in to snuggle, inviting the dog closer with something verbal and encouraging. Still don't look at the dog. The dog will likely come closer but might not touch you. You may have to sit like that for some time. Think in the 30 minute time period. Just project calm acceptance--like the situation is totally normal. The dog will eventually calm down and come closer, possibly allowing you to pet him. If he'll let you put an arm around, that's fine. But if he's been abused in the past, he might jump backward, fearing you'll strike. If he jumps, don't look or follow with your hand. Just go back to sitting calmly.

Dogs like affection. They crave a pack. It's only once you're part of HIS pack that he'll show you any form of respect. Affection is much easier and longer-lasting than fear or aggression.

frimble3 said:

I wonder if this is a case where the rescue people, trained, with experience, were able to handle and control the dog, making it appear 'adoptable', while the new owner doesn't have the skills or the temperament to do that, and the dog
is taking advantage of that lack of ability?

Click to expand...

The owner does seem to have a good approach with the dog. He stays calm and talks to it quietly, yet firmly. I should add that he walks a second dog (not a pit bull) at the same time.