Sex change in Fantasy

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StarWombat

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Hey, I think I mentioned this in another thread, but I don't remember and I'm not hunting through however many posts I've written to find out. So! A recap/precap! I'm writing a fantasy romance which has as its main conceit a main character that undergoes a full sex change, male to female. I know, old story, right?

However, while the story ends happily, and everyone accepts the transition, and the main character underwent the transition willingly, a trans friend of mine said she felt triggered by passages in the beginning where the newly female main character resists/objects/fights being a woman -- not just in terms of the new social expectations in place, but also in terms of just feeling wrong. In her words, "a charaacter that feels she's the wrong sex is every trans person's nightmare".

I'm not sure if I'm going to change the story, but I want to get some input from other people. I don't want to 'trigger' anyone, nor do I want to handle it disrespectfully, but I feel it's important to the story that there's an adjustment period. Indeed, a substantial part of the story as written, especially her scenes, is her coming to terms with the fact that she's a woman, there are different expectations now, and she'll have a husband.

I guess what I'm asking is... okay, part of what I'm asking for is validation, that it's fine to write what I want to write. That's not something I can control, and I apologize for it. But I also want to make sure that I handle it respectfully, so I'd like to get input on 'transitioning' or 'being forced to live as another sex' and how it makes people feel. Should I tone it down?
 

Diana Hignutt

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My novel, Moonsword (2004 Spectrum Nominee) has this plot...and has been widely heralded as positive transwriting...but hardly anyone bought it...so...I guess...it beats me...?

I had some big name agents tell me they loved my work...but that the market wasn't right...


Good luck.
 

StarWombat

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Actually, Miss Hignutt, I read and loved Moonsword. It's part of what inspired me. I have it sitting in pride of place on one of my book cases.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Actually, Miss Hignutt, I read and loved Moonsword. It's part of what inspired me. I have it sitting in pride of place on one of my book cases.

So, you're the one! :)

Well, here's an excerpt from Erin Swenson's review which appeared in Transgender Tapestry:


Many of us who struggle through years of pain about our real nature feel like Tolian, the dread of becoming the other gender causing extreme anxiety which inspires all sorts of​
bargaining in an attempt to avoid it. There are still many “psychotherapists” who make large sums of money, sometimes as much as $300 an hour, with the promise of a cure. It seems we would do anything to avoid the terror of changing gender, some of us even

choosing suicide as an acceptable alternative. If we are lucky, and determined, we can finally become able to accept who we really are and find ways to live joyfully and creatively with our reality.​
This is the stuff of the wonderful fantasy of the​
Moonsword crafted for us by Diana Hignutt. The story is full of twists and turns that captivate the reader. Anyone who likes science fiction or fantasy will enjoy Moonsword. Those readers who happen to understand transgender experience from the inside out will find here a mythic tale that penetrates the mystery and the truth of being differently gendered.


 

StarWombat

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I wish I could post the part of my story where the idea is broached; I feel it would helpme a great deal. I was going to, actually, but as it's Arthurian, I'm concerned that it comes under the heading of fanfic.

I think part of what makes it okay is that he chooses to become a woman (that's a major plot point, actually). But that's speaking from a straight, non-trans perspective. I feel uncertain that that opinion really would stand up.
 

Diana Hignutt

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I wish I could post the part of my story where the idea is broached; I feel it would helpme a great deal. I was going to, actually, but as it's Arthurian, I'm concerned that it comes under the heading of fanfic.

I think part of what makes it okay is that he chooses to become a woman (that's a major plot point, actually). But that's speaking from a straight, non-trans perspective. I feel uncertain that that opinion really would stand up.

I'd need to know why that decision is made, before I could comment. I don't think Arthurian based fantasy is fanfic....I mean The Crystal Cave and the Once and Future King aren't fanfic....
 

StarWombat

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I don't know. Probably I'm reading too strictly into the 'no fanfic allowed' post in the FAQs forum. I suppose I could post it; the worst that could happen would be it gets deleted, right?
 

Diana Hignutt

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I don't know. Probably I'm reading too strictly into the 'no fanfic allowed' post in the FAQs forum. I suppose I could post it; the worst that could happen would be it gets deleted, right?

Why not ask the mod there prior to posting? I don't see it as fanfic, myself...

Is because we'll recognize the character's names that you're afraid will come off that way? Sir Gawain, Sir Tristan, Sir Lancelot, Mordred, etc?
 

StarWombat

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Perhaps asking first would have been sensible, but... eh. I'm slow to come to a decision, but once I have, I'm quick to act upon it.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Perhaps asking first would have been sensible, but... eh. I'm slow to come to a decision, but once I have, I'm quick to act upon it.

It's fine. I don't see any problems in it at all. I quite like the style. Nice job. Sounds interesting.
 

StarWombat

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Thank you, Miss Hignutt. That is a load off my mind.
 

J.S.F.

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Geez, the dialogue between the OP and Diana is, like, so polite!:D

Not to shill too much about my own work, OP (and not like I haven't already done it), but my novel Twisted (see link, please) deals with a gender switch and not a sex change per se although there are elements of transgenderism in it.

FWIW, I think if you try and write the character's attitude toward transitioning in a respectful manner, then no one should be upset although I suspect someone out there will always get pissed. That's just the way it is.

In Twisted, the MC winds up in a woman's body (consciousness transfer to a game) and eventually accepts his role as a woman--a very powerful woman, in fact the most powerful female character in the game--but has second thoughts as he's attracted to another woman which is, to him, wrong, due to society's norms and ways. He eventually realizes it doesn't matter and his girlfriend doesn't care, so there it is. I tried to bring that viewpoint through and I think I brought it off well. In no way should it be compared to Diana's novel or other truer transgendered works, but within its confines, Twisted works and works well.

I wish you well and hope your novel does sell.
 

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As I mentioned in the PM, you're misunderstanding the FAQ.

Arthurian literature is in fact, except for very early examples, fan fic. To wit; Chertien de Troyes is using characters from an earlier work in his medieval romances. Strictly speaking, Mary Stewart's Crystal Cave, is also fan fic. But her sources are all long in the public domain.

The point is that fan fic and literature are not divorced, but that fan fic derived from works that aren't in the public domain isn't allowed here, for obvious reasons.

So fan fic of Mary Stewart's Crystal Cave, using her original content? Nope; not ok. Arthurian fan fic using Malory or other public domain works? Go for it!

I've attempted to make that clearer in the FAQ.
 

sunandshadow

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With transformation stories, half the appeal is reading the character's struggle to adapt to the changed body. Fantasies are about reclaiming nightmares to more positive scenarios (among many other purposes of fantasy). I'd just say make sure the character has a sense of humor about feeling wrong or awkward - compare it to an adolescent growth spurt or "that time I tried growing a mustache and everyone made fun of me..." or some kind of anecdote like that.
 

Little Ming

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However, while the story ends happily, and everyone accepts the transition, and the main character underwent the transition willingly,

...
I think part of what makes it okay is that he chooses to become a woman (that's a major plot point, actually). But that's speaking from a straight, non-trans perspective. I feel uncertain that that opinion really would stand up.

(Emphasis mine)

Hm. I've looked at the excerpt and this part sticks out to me.

The "choices" seems to be death, eternal prisoner, or woman. Not much of a "choice" if you ask me. And I think that's something you should acknowledge more. He doesn't seem all that "willing".

...a trans friend of mine said she felt triggered by passages in the beginning where the newly female main character resists/objects/fights being a woman -- not just in terms of the new social expectations in place, but also in terms of just feeling wrong. In her words, "a charaacter that feels she's the wrong sex is every trans person's nightmare".

But that's your MC's "nightmare" too, right? I mean, the only reason he "chooses" to become a woman is because he thinks it will be (slightly) better than death.

I'm not sure if I'm going to change the story, but I want to get some input from other people. I don't want to 'trigger' anyone, nor do I want to handle it disrespectfully, but I feel it's important to the story that there's an adjustment period. Indeed, a substantial part of the story as written, especially her scenes, is her coming to terms with the fact that she's a woman, there are different expectations now, and she'll have a husband.

I guess what I'm asking is... okay, part of what I'm asking for is validation, that it's fine to write what I want to write. That's not something I can control, and I apologize for it. But I also want to make sure that I handle it respectfully, so I'd like to get input on 'transitioning' or 'being forced to live as another sex' and how it makes people feel. Should I tone it down?

Does she really accept being a woman? Or is he still a man who has accepted being in a woman's body?

There is a difference there, and from your trans friend's POV I can understand being uncomfortable with the implications that by putting a man into a woman's body (by threat of death, basically) you can also change that man's gender identity to a woman. I think it can also lead to the unfortunate implication that trans people can/should learn to identify with their sex.

Of course I haven't read your MS, so this is all wild speculation on my part.
 

sunandshadow

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Does she really accept being a woman? Or is he still a man who has accepted being in a woman's body?
Not the only two options there. Me for example, I see my internal nature as being half way in between male and female. Being in a male or female body is equally odd to me, and both options are acceptable-if-not-ideal.
 

StarWombat

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(Emphasis mine)

Hm. I've looked at the excerpt and this part sticks out to me.

The "choices" seems to be death, eternal prisoner, or woman. Not much of a "choice" if you ask me. And I think that's something you should acknowledge more. He doesn't seem all that "willing".

Hmm... Well, no, I suppose it's not much of a choice. But then, that could be by design. The enchantresses want him to become a woman. Should I make it more explicit, then? Interesting.


But that's your MC's "nightmare" too, right? I mean, the only reason he "chooses" to become a woman is because he thinks it will be (slightly) better than death.

Yes, that's true.

Does she really accept being a woman? Or is he still a man who has accepted being in a woman's body?

There is a difference there, and from your trans friend's POV I can understand being uncomfortable with the implications that by putting a man into a woman's body (by threat of death, basically) you can also change that man's gender identity to a woman. I think it can also lead to the unfortunate implication that trans people can/should learn to identify with their sex

I suppose, rather glibly, it's all dealt with by magic. But he's to become a woman. The whole kit and kaboodle. He's being changed in such a way that he will always have been a woman, I think is the issue.

Which I admit can lead to unfortunate implications, but the setting allows for little else. I will have to think on it, though.
 

StarWombat

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I'm coming back to this thread because my question is on-topic, and it seemed more sensible than starting a new thread. I'm working on a new story now, while I wait for the betas to fill back in (thank you for all your help, everyone!) and one of my characters is secretly trans. Like, literally trans, she wants to be a different physical sex than she is. (Yes, m2f again. It interests me for personal reasons, and f2m repels me for reasons that I'm not comfortable with discussing and I probably shouldn't have written that). My question is, and it's an odd question, would she or should she feel grateful if someone takes it upon themselves to 'fix' her physical body to match her mental gender, without asking or telling her?

And how would reading that make you feel?
 
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Viridian

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Disclaimer: I'm not a trans person, and I think only a trans person can truly answer this question.

That being said, obviously there's a range of reactions that are possible, depending on your character. I've heard that some trans people don't necessarily hate their bodies or want to have surgery, which implies that they would be angry if someone magically changed it. Others might feel desperate for change. I would imagine:

(1) Annoyance/violation. How dare they?

(2) Joy and relief. This is a major burden that has been lifted. Maybe this character has fantasized about having the right body. Fantasized about never facing oppression, never being questioned, never being misgendered. This solves a major, life-threatening problem for her instantaneously.

(3) Anger and fear. The sudden change would also create lots of problems. Problems your character has no idea how to deal with. She knew how to be trans. How does she explain this? Will people be angry? Was your character out before? Well, she is now. Suddenly. Without her consent.

(4) Loss of identity. Confusion. She has been a trans person their entire life. Now, suddenly, she has the right body. Does she still feel like a trans person? Are we talking about a sudden, complete magical transformation? There would be no transition period to adapt. I imagine there would be some grief.

(5) Feeling overwhelmed. Maybe after a day or two, maybe a week or two, there would be a breakdown. Tears. Everything is different. She's never going to have her old body again. She's now out as a woman 100% of the time. Things that cisgender women have been taught from birth, she has to learn. Are gender roles vastly different in this society? Has she lost any privilege? Has she gained any? People will treat her differently.

Try finding information about transitioning online. I know there are videos on youtube by trans people talking about their experiences. I imagine there are also blogs by trans people going through transition, as well as blogs and websites that support and give information to trans people. If I were you, I'd read those, then try to imagine all of those feelings at once instead of over a long period of time.

So, in short, I imagine a trans person would be happy. But also pissed. But your character could be anything for ecstatic to grateful to confused to furious. Or maybe all those things at once.

I hope this is helpful. This is only my point of view as a cisgender writer, which is incredibly limited.
 
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StarWombat

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That's a good idea; I just couldn't find (outside of some very... odd... websites) anything where people were transitioned against their will. At least, anything that worked for my purposes. There was a famous case of it which ended sadly, I believe, but that was done at birth. Thank you, though.
 

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People changing gender is going to provoke reactions. I have put down and discarded books that did this. I think the book is what it is, but it is a good idea to let people know in the blurb if sex change is a major plot feature. Other people might disagree, but I think it is the sort of thing that can lead to bad reviews if you spring it on the reader. As for how common it is for forced sex change to be in a book, it is a topic I specifically avoid and have still come across it three or four times in fantasy novels.
 

StarWombat

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Hmm...

I don't know how important it is, or if it's so major that it goes in the blurb. Part of my thinking is along the lines of 'anyone can be secretly trans', or not so secretly trans, as the case may be. The key part here is the character is trans. It's not gratuitous or plot-driven, and there are consequences, good and bad, in the draft as written. I'm just wondering about her reactions to someone taking it upon themselves to 'fix' her 'problem'.

I know people changing gender isn't an uncommon theme in fantasy. I also know it's sometimes handled with all the tact of a sledgehammer. I want to avoid that. Which is part of my motivation, maybe? I don't know. I haven't really considered it beyond 'this character is trans'. Maybe I should, though.

It was easier with the King Arthur story, because I knew how that was to go, and there wasn't so much... pressure may be the right word? Maybe not? Being transgendered is a real (I want to say) condition, and it's not one that I want to handle lightly.

Now my thoughts are all over the map on this. Maybe that's good, though.
 
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sunandshadow

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Someone who has spent time wishing to have a different body probably has a really specific idea of the different body they want, and might feel robbed if they were unexpectedly given a body that's not the one they wanted, especially if whoever did it could have just asked and gotten it right.
 
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