Dealing with Beta Reader Feedback...

andiwrite said:

I get what you're saying, and when it comes to some issues, my betas have helped me in this way. But what do you do when the advice you're getting is the equivalent of one group of people saying you should bulldoze out a huge window to make the room more light and another group saying you should board up the windows because it's too light?

That's the main problem I'm having. Small nitpicks aside (most of which have been very helpful), the overall beta opinion of my chapter seems to fall into too categories: 1) it's way too slow, boring, pointless characters/info that isn't essential to the plot or 2) It's moving too fast, it feels rushed, they want more info, they want more backstory on the characters, etc.

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I see this frustration come up a lot ("One reader says my book is too X and another says it's not X enough!"), so I'm going to go on a bit of a ramble...

To me, the important thing with feedback is usually not the suggestions themselves (which can be helpful, but often aren't), but attempting to understand the issue that prompted the suggestion in the first place. If one reader says the opening is too slow, and another says it's too fast, the meaningful key takeaway is simply "something in the beginning isn't working".

Likewise, with the suggestions you're citing, to me the key takeway is "The readers aren't engaged with the work." And when people aren't engaged, they often project to the things they find interesting to fix it. For people who like action and fast-paced plotting, when they're not engaged, they wish it had more of that; for people who like backstory and character detail, they're going to with it had more of that. If I cooked a dish that was very bland (not that I'm implying your book is bland), a spice-lover might say "You need to make it hotter" and a sweet-tooth might say "You need to make it sweeter", and the fact that their feedback is contradictory doesn't negate it, it suggest looking for the common element: the meal is too bland for both of them. To use a more creative example, I like smart, challenging TV (True Detective, The Wire) and I like dumb, trashy TV (Spartacus, Banshee). I really don't like the show House of Cards because I think it's neither smart enough to be stimulating nor dumb enough to be soapy fun. My formal critique on it would be "Make this smarter OR make it dumber, but where it's at right now isn't working." If you're getting a lot of contradictory feedback, I suspect something similar might be at play.

It's true that you can't please all of the people all of the time. But if you want to be a published, professional writer, you need to be able to please enough of the people enough of the time, and I do think that requires understanding beta feedback even if (especially if!) it's contradictory.

andiwrite said:

I get what you're saying, and when it comes to some issues, my betas have helped me in this way. But what do you do when the advice you're getting is the equivalent of one group of people saying you should bulldoze out a huge window to make the room more light and another group saying you should board up the windows because it's too light?

That's the main problem I'm having. Small nitpicks aside (most of which have been very helpful), the overall beta opinion of my chapter seems to fall into too categories: 1) it's way too slow, boring, pointless characters/info that isn't essential to the plot or 2) It's moving too fast, it feels rushed, they want more info, they want more backstory on the characters, etc.

I agree that quickness doesn't necessarily mean there can't be character development, and I'm working on that. But I do think some of this just comes down to personal preferences.

And Drachen, I'm with you completelyabout not expecting the first novel to be the gold winner. I will keep trying to improve and sell this story, but I'm way more excited about everything I have lined up for the future.

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Are your betas all equally well-read in the genre you're writing? I agree with what cornflake said, but do take your betas' experience into account as well.

As an example...I recently finished the first draft of my third book, which is YA. While reading it, I became concerned that the themes in it, while okay on their own, might be too dark for YA when lumped together into one single book.

I asked my betas, and a few of them said something along the lines of, "Who cares?! Be true to your book!" which was nice and sincere, but I also wanted to be aware of the market. The answers that came from betas who have read lots of YA were quite different. For one thing, they were more wary and cautious. They asked things like, "Is this a book you would feel comfortable reading aloud to a classroom of teens?" and "Would you be okay if the book was banned from libraries?"

I found those questions pertinent, because well, stuff like that do happen. And while it's important to stay true to the book, it is also important to be aware of the market, which means knowing the genre and knowing the boundaries of said genre.

Also, take into account your betas' personalities. Another AWer and I betaed a book once and found the relationship between the MC and her husband way too idealistic. We both said it was unbelievable blah blah blah, but when I mentioned it to someone else, she said it sounded perfectly fine and realistic. I guess the other AWer and myself just aren't romantic people (which is true in my case, anyway), so we don't fully appreciate romance in books. Which is why it's so important to know your betas. Reading is such a subjective experience, it's worth knowing what your betas' preferences are.

It's important to consider which genre your beta readers read/write, but it's also just as important (and sometimes MORE important) to consider which STYLE they like to read/write. Georgette Heyer has a very different style to Steven Brust, and Jane Austen is aeons away from Diana Wynne Jones. All are equally brilliant. Some people don't seem to realise that there are different styles, and if something doesn't fit with what they're used to reading/writing, they automatically think it's bad.

So . . . either make sure your betas read/write in your sort of style, or that they're capable of reconising and appreciating a range of different styles.

My 2c, for what it's worth (probably significantly less due to exchange rates atm )

Based on my experience and observations, you can't learn to write from beta readers. You must learn the fundamentals on your own, through reading books on writing and the kind of books you want to write and as broad a sampling of other books as you can get your hands on.

Only when you have a handle on craft can you decide whether readers are right on or way off.

And as others have remarked, you need to get to know each reader's likes and dislikes, quirks and hobbyhorses, strengths and weaknesses. In a forum situation, you do that by reading threads about other peoples' work, not just your own. While you're reading, it will also be helpful to critique, too -- helping others with their writing is a powerful tool for improving your own, discovering your personal style.

Never engage in arguments about a reader's (or reviewer's) comments. With some people, you can ask for clarification and not start a flame war; with others, you just say thanks and leave it at that.

Don't hang around a group where negativity is the norm. Sad as it is to acknowledge any flaw in the writing community, there are some people who beta or review not to help the writer or potential readers but to show off and/or belittle. Some of them are easy to spot; some are sneaky and therefore pernicious. With practice, you'll pick them out, though, and the proper response is avoidance.

It's important to consider which genre your beta readers read/write, but it's also just as important (and sometimes MORE important) to consider which STYLE they like to read/write. Georgette Heyer has a very different style to Steven Brust, and Jane Austen is aeons away from Diana Wynne Jones. All are equally brilliant. Some people don't seem to realise that there are different styles, and if something doesn't fit with what they're used to reading/writing, they automatically think it's bad.

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Yup. I read and review a wide range of books with radically different styles. I have enjoyed 18th-century French romances, pulpy mysteries, verbose literary novels, mysteries, SF, YA...

But even I recognize there are genres and styles I can't critique because I just plain don't enjoy them. If someone is writing in the Nicholas Sparks vein, I can't beta that. I won't have anything useful to say.

Likewise, I don't give my YA books to my RL friends to beta because they tend to be adults who read solely lit fic. They may tell me to slow the book way down and add intricate descriptions of the environment, when an agent would say it's already too slow. That kind of crit can be interesting — and I'm not saying it's bad to gather a wide range of crits — but at the end of the day, it isn't the most helpful.

My former agent gave me amazing micro-crits, but when it came to the big picture, he just didn't seem to grasp what I was going for. Once I read a novel he'd written, I understood. He was an excellent reader — and you can always learn something from an excellent reader — but our styles and tastes were miles apart. An excellent reader who also could be part of your target audience is more likely to see why what you're doing is not working.

It's not hard to identify a great beta, when you're lucky enough to run into one. They're very specific about what's not working and why. Their explanations are clear, and logical.

Personally, I try hard to be that kind. (Not that I always am.)

Anyone who critiques with "sluggish drivel" is writing to satisfy his own needs, not to help you. You can safely ignore anything of this nature.

I agree, there is absolutely no reason to be mean.

I find critiques helpful, but selectively so and only over time. I mean, I've solicited and received a ton of contrary advice, which is frustrating, but over the years, I've developed a bit of a feel for when there's something there for me, and then I've found the insight invaluable. I sure do wish there was a better, quicker way to go about it, though.

If anyone wants a laugh on the subject, I wrote a semi-satirical essay awhile back on my blog site addressing this problem: http://errinstevens.com/?s=good+advice

you can get overwhelmed, for sure

In writing there is no objective right or wrong. Everyone has an opinion, and it can be very difficult to sort out what to do.

I don't think I've ever had a malicious critique. But, sometimes my own query/work is already driving me crazy, and when you get conflicting advice it can be very difficult to deal with.

Listen to the reviewer, and try to read past the details into what they are feeling. Recently there was a post about a critique stating there wasn't enough swearing in the author's battle scenes. On the surface that seems silly, but perhaps the reviewer simply felt there wasn't enough grit.

Hey, jump over the Amazon and check out the reviews on your favorite novels. Doesn't matter how good it is, someone will hate the very things you loved.

Unfortunately some people are just out to be mean, to feel better about themselves. Nothing we can do about that. A good beta will always have a good feeling for why something doesn't work for them. If they can't give a reason, I would ignore that person's comments and take ones who can be specific and respectful in the way they critique. That just seems obvious, especially if you are exchanging MS with that person.

Granted sometimes people don't know exactly why something doesn't work, they just know it doesn't. Sometimes things just rub people the wrong way. And sometimes others will love that very thing. That's why it is good to hear from many and not few. No one will have the same opinion.

In my experience, it can help to give beta readers a set of specific questions about elements that don't seem to be working too well: conflict, specific scenes, glitches in the flow of causality, and so on. Getting extra input on some big concerns can compensate for less helpful critiques.

ReflectedGray said:

How do you guys shift through feedback of other budding writers and figure out what is really solid and what might less so?

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I make use of what makes sense to me and disregard the rest.

Once upon a time I approached critiques like this: I've never had anything published and don't really know what I'm doing, thus I should take the advice of these other writers (also unpublished) who have given me their best.

Problem was, those other writers almost always offered conflicting advice or downright terrible advice, the kind that was destructive to the essential nature of the story I wanted to tell (kind of like when James Cameron's producer buddy told him that Avatar might be pretty good if only he took out all the hippie-tree-hugging bullshit). Now, these writers/beta readers weren't stupid, but they often had just as little idea about how to improve someone else's story as write their own.

That said, I met a couple of fellows in graduate school who did know what they were talking about. Their advice was simple, sound, and sensible. I noticed that following it improved my stories easily, often because I'd overlooked something that had bothered me during the writing and yet had eluded my ability to pin down, much less fix. Then I met another fellow at one of my college-years jobs whose advice was similarly direct and insightful. What all three shared was this: they were widely and deeply read. Two of them made my own reading habits look crippled and anemic. One read with the sharpness of the English professor he later became. When all three liked a story, it would sell. Usually quickly. When two of the three liked a story, it would usually sell, too, but often not as quickly. And when none of them liked a story, it was generally doomed in ways I couldn't fix, short of rewriting the thing entirely.

My conclusion about critiques, then, amounts to this: I have to trust my own storytelling sensibilities first, telling the best story in the best ways I know how. I must finish it. Only then I can show it someone else. If I understand their advice and it improves the story, I'll follow it. If I don't understand the advice, I have no hope of following it. If it doesn't improve the story, I don't need it.

Ultimately more important, however, is what an editor tells me since, in the end, they're the ones buying what I write. When Algis Budrys gave me advice, I followed it. When Patrick Swenson offered some, I followed that, too. And so on. And so on...

mccardey said:

Good betas are worth their weight in gold, but a writer needs to accept the responsibility for their own work. A beta can't make a writer make changes. A good writer makes the changes she thinks will work.

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Precisely this.

It's always good to seek other's impressions - sometimes people will point out things you missed completely or everyone points out the same little thing that didn't work for them - but ultimately you have to stand on your own and write what works for you.

Advice on most snippets can then be applied to the entire work if it's something you agree is a problem you have (like too much info-dumping, etc.) but for something overall I think you're better off only trusting it either with someone you know (not a friend, necessarily, but you're familiar with their tastes, strengths, etc.) or someone who really 'gets' your work.
Just because someone has a lot more experience or is an expert in something doesn't mean they're going to magically make your book a bestseller if you apply everything they suggest.

I find the most useful advice I've gotten is when I've asked for feedback on specific things. I already suspected something might be wrong and wanted to 'test' it. Sometimes I've already edited out several things, but put up an earlier version to see if I was right or not.
And even more useful, I find, is critiquing other people's work, or reading every novel in the mind of a writer and figuring out what elements worked for me that I can apply to my own writing.

I think some people fall into a trap of constantly second-guessing themselves and those that don't are more often than not the ones who end up published, I suspect. It might not be their first novel that does, or even their fifth or sixth, but ultimately they keep going with writing and getting something out there rather than being perfect or pleasing everyone.