Serial Killers; love them or hate them?

gothicangel

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What I don't particularly like in fiction with serial killers is the escalation in violence (and gratuitousness). It's as though the author thinks that the next murder should be bloodier and gorier than the last. This is why I stopped reading Val McDermid, even though I love the character of Tony Hill (all I will say, razor blades inserted into a dildo.)
 

Wilde_at_heart

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The 'serial killers are brilliant, scheming, suave, cool guys' thing is not helpful to anything either.

Or that they're master psychologists. Most are simply violent thugs who subdue their victims quickly by violent means and even when they are above average intelligence, they're usually in low-end jobs. When they're not (like doctors) they use their status to their advantage. I wonder if the 'genius SK' helps feed the delusions of some of them.

Absolutely. A good friend of mine was a homicide investigator for more than 20 years. He said in many (if not most) murder cases they know who did it, but what you know and what you can prove are two very different things.

The exception to this is serial killers and contract hits. Because the murderer has little to no connection with the victim, the investigators have to catch a lucky break with a convergence of luck, or a mistake on the part of the killer.

That's it too - there was plenty of circumstantial evidence against plenty of SKs that either never got caught, or were only caught after dozens of more victims. Then there's hard evidence that could connect the killer, but it's ruled not admissible. Also, patterns only emerge, needless to say, after multiple victims have been discovered.

I'll vote love 'em. The thing I'm incredibly sick of, though, and won't read any more of, is the trope of "the lead detective on the case must catch the killer before he catches her, and she must confront this demon in her own past that mingles and matches perfectly with the plot and comes to a stupidly streamlined climax!" Enough of that.

Oh, this. It's been done far too many times. Or any version of that (one I read last summer was instead an investigative journalist).
 
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Lillith1991

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Or that they're master psychologists. Most are simply violent thugs who subdue their victims quickly by violent means and even when they are above average intelligence, they're usually in low-end jobs. When they're not (like doctors) they use their status to their advantage. I wonder if the 'genius SK' helps feed the delusions of some of them.

That's why I refuse to write them as overly inteligent. Smart enough that they can effectivly keep their normal lives and their impulse to kill separated is one thing, there's a fair amount that are that inteligent. Combined with personal patttern, and the occasional police/forensic error it's what can make them so hard to catch. For every obvious whack job, there's the person who appears normal on the outside but is rotten to the core.

Me, I'm personally going to have them only marginally smarter than the average bear with normal jobs. Not sure which jobs yet, I may make one a reporter but nothing is set in stone.

That's it too - there was plenty of circumstantial evidence against plenty of SKs that either never got caught, or were only caught after dozens of more victims. Then there's hard evidence that could connect the killer, but it's ruled not admissible. Also, patterns only emerge, needless to say, after multiple victims have been discovered.

Agreed. Also, the police may not notice the pattern unless someone important is killed. Homeless people disappearing is disturbing, but depending on what portion of the cities population is homeless because of addiction can be passed over depending on manner of death. Sad but true. There's probably a lot of serial killers who started out on homeless people an young run aways, and this can give them the advantage. Law enforcement are only given so much money they can spend on the man power to figure out such cases.

Oh, this. It's been done far too many times. Or any version of that (one I read last summer was instead an investigative journalist).

Yes! At least varry it up with a man or something. Who's to say a serial killer will only fixate on a woman. What if the killer is a straight/Bi woman or a gay man? They certainly aren't going to automaticly fix on a female in that weird psuedo romantic fixation a lot of serial killers seem to fixate on female cops/reporters in fiction featuring them.
 

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briannasealock, write it, I'll read it. I love SKs as much as I despise vampires and werewolves, and that'a a lot.
 

briannasealock

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briannasealock, write it, I'll read it. I love SKs as much as I despise vampires and werewolves, and that'a a lot.

Funnily enough I despise the vamp/were supernatural angle as well. The only books I ever liked that include Vampires were written by Anne Rice. I basically read those books to protest Twilight. :)

I'm gonna keep that manuscript and work on it more later. I think I need a break from it.
 

briannasealock

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What I don't particularly like in fiction with serial killers is the escalation in violence (and gratuitousness). It's as though the author thinks that the next murder should be bloodier and gorier than the last. This is why I stopped reading Val McDermid, even though I love the character of Tony Hill (all I will say, razor blades inserted into a dildo.)

I've done a bit of research in the field. I'm not saying that I know everything but escalation seems to be a thing with SK's. A natural thing. The first kill sometimes is an accident or a crime of passion or something like that, and the next one's are them trying out their mo. And then they really just get into it when they aren't caught.

So it may be a cliche in novels, but in RL it's pretty much what happens.
 

jeseymour

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lol. I suppose. :)

I did get her to watch Leverage though. I'm pretty proud for that.

I'm really not sure I'm quite as old as you think I am. I have never been a horror fan, I am a crime fiction fan. I've watched every episode of Columbo, every episode of Sherlock, plus a ton of real film noir. I just don't have an interest in stuff that crosses into horror/slasher type stuff. I don't watch or read cozies though, no Murder She Wrote or anything with a cat in the title. :)
 

Chase

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I'm just a lad of 73, and I look up to Jeseymour as a matronly maternal figure. :D No wonder I'm a Sherlock, Charlie Chan, Sam Spade, Nick and Nora Charles, Columbo fan.

I neither love nor hate serial killer plots; I'm more tired at the sameness of them. I agree with those tired of the mastermind, game-playing killers who repeat for the sheer joy of leading a chase. These subhumans have tasted blood and basically want to create more.
 

cornflake

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I've done a bit of research in the field. I'm not saying that I know everything but escalation seems to be a thing with SK's. A natural thing. The first kill sometimes is an accident or a crime of passion or something like that, and the next one's are them trying out their mo. And then they really just get into it when they aren't caught.

So it may be a cliche in novels, but in RL it's pretty much what happens.

I don't know where you got this info but it's not correct.
 

jeseymour

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I'm just a lad of 73, and I look up to Jeseymour as a matronly maternal figure. :D No wonder I'm a Sherlock, Charlie Chan, Sam Spade, Nick and Nora Charles, Columbo fan.

I am definitely not old enough to be your mother, Chase! My own father will be 76 this year. :D

I do like Agatha Christie, but also Elmore Leonard. Donald Westlake and Lawrence Block.
 

Lillith1991

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I don't know where you got this info but it's not correct.

I would say it isn't correct as a general rule, their are some that this has been correct for though. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I remember either reading it somewhere or hearing it in one of the documentaries I watch about them. You are right, that in general they don't escalate. The majority of them don't from what I've been able to gather.

H.H. Holmes, the US first known serial killer certainly didn't escalate and he isn't all that unusual as far as serial killers go except for being the first officially known one.
 

Fictional Cowboy

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Personally, I want nothing to do with serial killers. I don't find serial killers interesting or entertaining in the least. Not even fake ones.

My personal opinion is firm: I'm assaulted with sex, violence and vulgar language every single day in public, advertising, the media, etc. Why on earth would I want it in my down time, too?
 

cbenoi1

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> Why you love them, why you hate them, cliches you don't want to
> see, something you want to see more of?

No matter how sick your serial killer is or how gory the killings are, I think we've reached the end of that line a long time ago. Once you try and escalate that aspect of the story, you fall outside the M/T/S genre and into the Horror genre.

If anything, I'd like to see plot lines that side-step serial killing altogether. For example, serial killing as a means to cover-up a targeted murder. Or serial killing which is in fact someone attempting to erase his/her dubious past. Or serial killing as a means to achieve a laudable end (ex: Kurtz in Apocalypse Now - eliminating VC double agents). Those sorts of villains are not whack jobs, but rather have a specific goal in mind while still being worthy opponents to the Hero.

-cb
 

cornflake

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I would say it isn't correct as a general rule, their are some that this has been correct for though. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but I remember either reading it somewhere or hearing it in one of the documentaries I watch about them. You are right, that in general they don't escalate. The majority of them don't from what I've been able to gather.

H.H. Holmes, the US first known serial killer certainly didn't escalate and he isn't all that unusual as far as serial killers go except for being the first officially known one.

I didn't mean they don't escalate. They can and do - though escalation is not like 'get gorier!' - that's how they generally become serial killers.
 

Lillith1991

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I didn't mean they don't escalate. They can and do - though escalation is not like 'get gorier!' - that's how they generally become serial killers.

Yea, brainfart moment there. I thought you meant esclating level of violence. Which is certainly uncommon. You're completely right, they don't generally do that. Most of the time escalation means they kill more often, and is often part of what leads to them getting caught. They closer together their kills the more likely they will make a mistake investigators can use to catch them.
 

briannasealock

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I'm really not sure I'm quite as old as you think I am. I have never been a horror fan, I am a crime fiction fan. I've watched every episode of Columbo, every episode of Sherlock, plus a ton of real film noir. I just don't have an interest in stuff that crosses into horror/slasher type stuff. I don't watch or read cozies though, no Murder She Wrote or anything with a cat in the title. :)

*gasp of horror* da-daa-duuunnnnn!!!!!!

No Murder, She Wrote? or Remmington Steele, or The A-Team, or Scarecrow and Mrs. King? Or Star Trek Next Generation? Or Matlock????????????????????????????

lol. just kidding. I've never seen an episode of Columbo but I do know it's pretty famous. I was born in '85 if that helps. I grew up with all these shows. I watched MSW with my grandma some times. And a couple Christmases ago I watched like five seasons in a row. It was Murder, She Wrote for like....three days. :) and I've got all the seasons to Remmington Steele. Peirce Brosnan is awesome in that show.
 

briannasealock

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> Why you love them, why you hate them, cliches you don't want to
> see, something you want to see more of?

No matter how sick your serial killer is or how gory the killings are, I think we've reached the end of that line a long time ago. Once you try and escalate that aspect of the story, you fall outside the M/T/S genre and into the Horror genre.

If anything, I'd like to see plot lines that side-step serial killing altogether. For example, serial killing as a means to cover-up a targeted murder. Or serial killing which is in fact someone attempting to erase his/her dubious past. Or serial killing as a means to achieve a laudable end (ex: Kurtz in Apocalypse Now - eliminating VC double agents). Those sorts of villains are not whack jobs, but rather have a specific goal in mind while still being worthy opponents to the Hero.

-cb

I can't remember the exact year this case took place but it was before companies put tamper proof packaging on things at the store. And you know not to buy something if the packaging is mess up. ya know?

Anyway, there was a woman who killed her husband with arsenic in a headache pill. She took the plastic apart and took the medicine out and replaces it with arsenic. But she had to cover it up. So she tampered with many different bottle of headache medicine at several stores. People unwittingly bought them and died. I can't remember how the cops finally caught her, but that's why we have tamper proof packaging now. I think it may have taken place in the 70's.

And that's a thing about lady SK's. They tend to kill more through poisons. And they kill people close to them. Also, sometimes, they'll kill their patients and we call them Angel's of Mercy.
 

Helix

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There's something I'd read -- a well-written story about a nurse or a doctor who kills her patients when palliative care in ineffective and the moral and ethical dilemmas of the team involved in the investigation. But one of the deaths might not have been by her hand...

(I haven't thought this through.)
 

briannasealock

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There's something I'd read -- a well-written story about a nurse or a doctor who kills her patients when palliative care in ineffective and the moral and ethical dilemmas of the team involved in the investigation. But one of the deaths might not have been by her hand...

(I haven't thought this through.)

That does sound intriguing.
 

onesecondglance

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I can go along with a serial killer plot - as long as it's not one where the killer leaves clues / messages for the police, and / or is following an occult pattern (e.g. the seven deadly sins, nine circles of hell, yah-dah-yah-dah bored now).

Seven did it. Messiah did it. They were great. But it's massively overplayed now.
 

briannasealock

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I can go along with a serial killer plot - as long as it's not one where the killer leaves clues / messages for the police, and / or is following an occult pattern (e.g. the seven deadly sins, nine circles of hell, yah-dah-yah-dah bored now).

Seven did it. Messiah did it. They were great. But it's massively overplayed now.

That's means it's time to find something else to make a pattern out of. :)