Keeping At It

Batspan

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I've not self-published, but from what I can see, it's becoming a very valid way to build a following if you know what you're doing. I gather the Kindle boards are a good source of advice on that from people actively doing it - don't know if you've looked at those.

I think the pro mags are great - I'd love to be accepted by one - but they're still a limited marketplace. The world is so much bigger than that.

One thing I've been thinking about later, is how some of the novelists I enjoy reading often didn't go through the rounds of short story markets, honing their work to suit. Instead, they wrote the novels they wanted to write, the way only they could write them. (Lucky for them, they also found agents and sold their stories.)

For me, the short story markets are a good way to go because they give me goals to aim for, and teach me about the submissions game. I learn a bit about the expectations for genre stories, stuff that the writing course I took the last couple of years wouldn't teach me.

I'd like to find a place where I could learn about the different expectations of literary vs genre markets, and the different tools for each. <snip>

I'm overdue for another visit to the Kindleboards. I've been inspired by success stories and practical advice there. I correspond with someone who sells well on Amazon.

Yes, the world is bigger than the pro venues. I wanted to publish more short stories, yet there's no point holding up other projects. If I'm not completely delusional, I probably have a better chance of gaining an audience by self-publishing novels and novellas -- and the process is far less time-intensive than trying to hawk short stories to editors.

Thanks for the link. I'll check that out - I'm due for a happy story.

Good thought about exploring literary vs genre expectations. I haven't seen anything on that specifically. Corsera is a quality resource for classes on a huge array of topics relevant to writing and it's free. https://www.coursera.org/

Novelist Janet Burroway's Writing Fiction: A Guide to Narrative Craft remains an excellent intro to the craft of fiction, valuable for working in any mode. Her novel Raw Silk was a runner up for the National Book Award.

I get a charge out of writers who aren't constrained by marketing categories. The finest fantasists are literary writers: Poe, Harlan Ellison, Joyce Carol Oates, Shirley Jackson, Angela Carter, Dan Simmons, Peter Straub, Ray Bradbury -- I'm going to stop before I write an essay.

Newer writers including Kelly Link defy limiting categorization.
http://www.kellylink.net/biblio.htm

I look at the major short story anthos to find breakthrough speculative works and see where they first appeared.

Lately I've been reading essays by editors -- all kinds of editors -- they're a rich source of insights into what works and what impresses the people with the power over who gets published via the traditional route.

One of the few things I've seen on a general difference in craft in genre vs literary was a greater attention to plot, in general, in genre work, as a positive aspect of genre fiction.

That may have been in a Randy Ingermanson newsletter many months back. His newsletters are the only ones I read every word of as soon as they arrive. The subscription is free:

http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/

 

Batspan

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I'm sure it can't be all- of course I forget what year I published on in A Cappella Zoo (lit mag, therefore no pay) and my recent one also had my main character as queer - I think the world is coming around but I definitely see a good share of M/M stuff. Maybe because a facebook friend makes a good chunk of his living writing it (Romance). Then there was the Queering Edgar Allan Poe anthology released.

Glad to hear about your publication in A Cappella Zoo. I wish I'd heard about Queering Edgar Allan Poe when it was open.

Stats that look dismal to me might be encouraging to someone else. When I started submitting fiction again it seemed promising that so many venues have inclusiveness policies.
 

Batspan

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I'm weird. And tired. And frustrated. lol.

Sudoroot -- You're welcome to be weird here. :) Consider not pressuring yourself to tell your wife or anyone else other than fellow sufferers that you're writing. It can be a tender process, especially early on.

One suggestion: Write first thing in the morning. I am not a morning person, yet sometimes the only way I can steal fiction time is to get up at dawn. Yeah, your days are long enough already. Still, give it a try. Sleep in your car at lunch if you have to. And stop being so hard on yourself. :)

Another thought -- tell everyone you're going for a walk or a run. Walk or run to a quiet spot and take out your device and write. Exercise is a great way to bust stress and get your head clear, and no one will give you shit about it.
 

Batspan

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I recently read a story in WoTF, vol 29 about a disabled girl with two dads in a gay relationship. Bat, I get the sense you write speculative fiction, rather than romance. Do you find there's much discrimination there against having queer characters? Sorry if I sound ignorant, but I'm interested. I stumble across the odd queer story from time to time. Apex published a take on Cinderella written by Rachel Swirsky that opened with some R-rated F/F content. It was a reprint though. Her writing is amazing.

I guess you're noting the mags that have published stories with queer characters so you can know that they won't discriminate on that basis.

It's a good question. My best answer is that I don't feel discriminated against in the sense of anything personal or deliberate. There are editors known to be anti-homosexual and I don't submit to those publications or support them in any way.

As I've been following many speculative fiction venues more closely, I've been disappointed by how rare it is to to find characters, especially main characters, who aren't heterosexual.

Yet there are queer writers of all kinds who break in, so I don't want to get into thinking there's no hope.

I've worked as an editor, so I know many factors go into choosing a story.

Still, when only a few stories with queer characters appear in paying speculative fiction markets in all of 2013 -- it validates the growing sense that I've been wasting my time submitting short stories.

I've lived in a largely heterosexual world all my life and some of my characters are heterosexual. The first story I sold last year was straight -- twisted, yet straight. I never wanted to be branded a queer writer, not because I care who knows, simply because it's too limiting. I'm not writing coming out stories, or political tracts, or romance or porn. I'm writing speculative fiction of all kinds and my characters are often outsiders, and not only queer.

That's a surprise about WoTF. Thanks for letting me know. Apex is remarkable and that's why I spend money there when I can.

I believe that the best editors aren't discriminating on the basis of the writer's or characters' characteristics, whether queer or anything else.

Which leaves me with a growing sense of failure.

Given that the short fiction project is bumming me out, I'm going to focus on finishing the novel this summer. After I get the Gothic horror novel out I'm going to finish the next installment of the Vampire Madam series. Having multiple titles out seems to improve sales, and at least with self-publishing I get to send fiction out in the world without having it thrown back at me.
 
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fihr

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It's a good question. My best answer is that I don't feel discriminated against in the sense of anything personal or deliberate.

I'm happy to hear that!

I've lived in a largely heterosexual world all my life and some of my characters are heterosexual. The first story I sold last year was straight -- twisted, yet straight. I never wanted to be branded a queer writer, not because I care who knows, simply because it's too limiting. I'm not writing coming out stories, or political tracts, or romance or porn. I'm writing speculative fiction of all kinds and my characters are often outsiders, and not only queer.

That's a surprise about WoTF. Thanks for letting me know. Apex is remarkable and that's why I spend money there when I can.

I have heard, but I don't know, that a past winner was asked to tone down some of the overt non-hetero characteristics of one of his MCs. Not sure if he did or not; not sure what the references were. But given it's a spec fic market, a character could be queer without it being confronting to their market, and if the story is original and gripping, it has every chance. The one I read recently held me gripped to the end.

One of the things I enjoy about writing (maybe naively) is that anyone can submit a story, whatever colour, religion, gender, age or sexual orientation they happen to be. Whereas if you walk into a job interview, you are immediately judged by your appearance, maybe your accent, your colour, your mannerisms or your clothes, with writing, it is our words and story that count.

I do hear about discrimination towards female writers, and I haven't reached the echelons where that might be an issue. However, the inclusivity of the writing world I'm directly exposed to, is hugely encouraging to me.

In fact, I like how we can work to be more inclusive in our stories, and have them reflect the varied community we live amongst.

I believe that the best editors aren't discriminating on the basis of the writer's or characters' characteristics, whether queer or anything else.

Which leaves me with a growing sense of failure.
.

If you are only subbing to pro mags, then I don't think you should feel a sense of failure. They are very hard to get into and I know you know that people try for years. And even when they do, they don't sell every story. So you see their names popping up in the semi-pro mags too.
 

V1c

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the WotF thing caught me off guard. I haven't sent anything because I'm not all 'traditional linear hetero' in my writing.

It's tough, the issue of representation. I gave up writing male characters (not really, not all the time) in my MFA program because every. single. story. had women only as service to the male, even among the other women writers. I got a lot of guff for writing non-white (for real, so surprising) non-hetero characters. Oh, and for including jobs and cats. So there's the future of writing, right there - the same as it was. Catless straight white men who don't have to work to live.

My thing, though, is to learn learn learn but be true to yourself as a writer. This doesn't mean that you can't change styles and grow, just don't give up on getting representation of you out there and not as a friggen 'other' but as a fully realized person. It's rare! (oh, and if you want a link to the A Cappela Story I mentioned, feel free to PM me Batspan, I think it's still online)

I don't know, some days I want to give up too. The rejections and comments and other people and myself and 'stuff' but in the end, I think I'm doing something valuable.

I think part of it is that artists tend to create the culture of society. Art (writing as part of art) can change culture, and often does. There is still a fear (especially one seen in MFA programs and lit-stuff) of allowing these other narratives in because man, what happens if women and QUILTBAG and all that stuff becomes not just tolerated, but accepted as part of the core culture of our civilization? There's a reason there is the term 'outsider art' - so works can still be seen but in a way that marginalizes their impact to the greater society by labeling it as, literally, outside what should be accepted.

Okay, let me not write a whole dissertation here.
 

fihr

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It's tough, the issue of representation. I gave up writing male characters (not really, not all the time) in my MFA program because every. single. story. had women only as service to the male, even among the other women writers. I got a lot of guff for writing non-white (for real, so surprising) non-hetero characters. Oh, and for including jobs and cats. So there's the future of writing, right there - the same as it was. Catless straight white men who don't have to work to live.

That would be really disappointing. If it were me, I'd probably get really cynical if I went through that. I think of universities as places where you can explore and take risks more than in the commercial world. So writing about non traditional characters of all types should be encouraged.

I think the world is impoverished if writing only depicts one kind of character, but I'll bet marketing has something to do with it. Who buys the most books.

Self-publishing might change this. Also, there is a lot more variety in television now, as far as representation goes, compared to years ago. That has to have an effect.

My thing, though, is to learn learn learn but be true to yourself as a writer. This doesn't mean that you can't change styles and grow, just don't give up on getting representation of you out there and not as a friggen 'other' but as a fully realized person. It's rare! (oh, and if you want a link to the A Cappela Story I mentioned, feel free to PM me Batspan, I think it's still online)

I don't know, some days I want to give up too. The rejections and comments and other people and myself and 'stuff' but in the end, I think I'm doing something valuable.

I think part of it is that artists tend to create the culture of society. Art (writing as part of art) can change culture, and often does. There is still a fear (especially one seen in MFA programs and lit-stuff) of allowing these other narratives in because man, what happens if women and QUILTBAG and all that stuff becomes not just tolerated, but accepted as part of the core culture of our civilization? There's a reason there is the term 'outsider art' - so works can still be seen but in a way that marginalizes their impact to the greater society by labeling it as, literally, outside what should be accepted.

Okay, let me not write a whole dissertation here.

That's inspiring, V1c.

I want my stories to reflect the world I experience, and in the SF ones, how that world might be going forward. Which means a variety of cultures, sexual orientations, genders, whatever, because that is what I move amongst where I live. I find tv shows and stories which don't display that mix to be unrealistic, unless they're set in a more isolated time and place compared to the globalisation we have today.
 

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I got a lot of guff for writing non-white (for real, so surprising) non-hetero characters. Oh, and for including jobs and cats. So there's the future of writing, right there - the same as it was. Catless straight white men who don't have to work to live.

Stuff like this always galls me. I have to check what century I'm living in when I hear about it. I'm from New Mexico and so naturally write stories in New Mexico. In one of my first online crit groups a woman very patronizingly told me "It's nice you're trying to write a multi-cultural book." I had no idea what she was talking about. What I thought I was writing was a YA contemporary story focussing on a girl in HS who has to take care of her grandma. I had to scan over my own story to try to figure out what she was referring to. It finally dawned on me that taking place in "New Mexico" and having her boyfriend have a last name of Sandoval qualified it as "multi-cultural" in her mind. To me the culture was HS which is always multicultural and doesn't need that label slapped on it. The story was not about cultural diversity, it was just about people being people.

Ahh, those are the times I tell other Americans they'd better get a passport if they want to visit New Mexico :)
 

V1c

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Stuff like this always galls me. I have to check what century I'm living in when I hear about it. I'm from New Mexico and so naturally write stories in New Mexico. In one of my first online crit groups a woman very patronizingly told me "It's nice you're trying to write a multi-cultural book." I had no idea what she was talking about.

Ahh, those are the times I tell other Americans they'd better get a passport if they want to visit New Mexico :)

Got my MFA in NM - went there because, "HEY! The cradle of Magical realism (or near it)" Magical realism was banned in workshop after I left. A writer from NM who was trying to get into a program in NM was chastised for writing magical realism, when to her she was writing from her culture and background and the way stories were told in, IDK, HER NATIVE LAND. She eventually didn't go to a school there for her MFA.

The 'why are there so many chinese' in your work comment got me (I also got a lot of 'wow, you're so weird' in my comments). I went to college in NYC and most of my close friends are from parts of China. Of course my characters were not going to be all white. Or straight, regardless of how I identify.

I think the diversity issue might also be why 'genre' is a dirty word in academic programs. It seems to be far more interested (and vocal) about issues of representation than other fiction, and always has been.
 

Melinda Moore

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Got my MFA in NM - went there because, "HEY! The cradle of Magical realism (or near it)" Magical realism was banned in workshop after I left. A writer from NM who was trying to get into a program in NM was chastised for writing magical realism, when to her she was writing from her culture and background and the way stories were told in, IDK, HER NATIVE LAND. She eventually didn't go to a school there for her MFA.

The 'why are there so many chinese' in your work comment got me (I also got a lot of 'wow, you're so weird' in my comments). I went to college in NYC and most of my close friends are from parts of China. Of course my characters were not going to be all white. Or straight, regardless of how I identify.

I think the diversity issue might also be why 'genre' is a dirty word in academic programs. It seems to be far more interested (and vocal) about issues of representation than other fiction, and always has been.

Wow. Even more shocking. I'm sorry your experience here was so bad. Was it at UNM? We have so many various pockets of cultures in Albuquerque, that it would be hard to believe it would be UNM. But, on the other hand I think UNM has an inferiority complex. That's where I graduated from, but not in writing so I don't know anything about their department. :(
 

V1c

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I've actually taken classes at both (although graduated from NMSU). There is an inferiority complex, and that leads to a lot of infighting. The UNM program had a major implosion around 2009 they're still rebuilding from (sex scandal that led to a LOT of retaliation lawsuits and stuff). NMSU had a restructuring and such, lot of infighting, plain out meanness, etc. Basically, I wouldn't recommend either program. Which is sad. I did like NM, but had to move because the universities are the major employers and man, the politics sucked.
 

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Stuff like this always galls me. I have to check what century I'm living in when I hear about it. I'm from New Mexico and so naturally write stories in New Mexico. In one of my first online crit groups a woman very patronizingly told me "It's nice you're trying to write a multi-cultural book."

Oh no. It would be unbelievable, except you really do meet people whose world is no bigger than their back yard.

When I travelled to Italy, I met a friendly US couple looking at the same attraction we were. The wife really embarrassed her husband when she asked me where I learned to speak English, because she thought I spoke it very well. She knew I was from Australia (and not Austria), and her daughter was about to travel here on an exchange, which she was very worried about. She didn't think we spoke English here in Australia; she thought we had no education system, and were like some kind of third world country. She thought I must be part of some rich elite who were sent overseas to learn. Truly!!

What I couldn't understand was, , why she hadn't done the most basic research to know what kind of place her daughter would be travelling to.

From V1c:

Got my MFA in NM - went there because, "HEY! The cradle of Magical realism (or near it)" Magical realism was banned in workshop after I left. A writer from NM who was trying to get into a program in NM was chastised for writing magical realism, when to her she was writing from her culture and background and the way stories were told in, IDK, HER NATIVE LAND. She eventually didn't go to a school there for her MFA.

That's just sad. I guess some places just have politics, or the person in charge of the department has certain opinions and prejudices, or is ignorant, and there's not much to be done until a new guard takes charge.
 

Melinda Moore

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When I travelled to Italy, I met a friendly US couple looking at the same attraction we were. The wife really embarrassed her husband when she asked me where I learned to speak English, because she thought I spoke it very well. She knew I was from Australia (and not Austria), and her daughter was about to travel here on an exchange, which she was very worried about. She didn't think we spoke English here in Australia; she thought we had no education system, and were like some kind of third world country. She thought I must be part of some rich elite who were sent overseas to learn. Truly!!

What I couldn't understand was, , why she hadn't done the most basic research to know what kind of place her daughter would be travelling to.

I guess you have to just laugh at these things because otherwise it's just so sad. I wonder what language she thought you spoke. I hope she was eventually embarrassed by her own question.

My daughters are fans of the TV show H2O which features mermaids in Australia. Maybe in about ten years when their generation is grown, you'll get an influx of college age tourists asking to see the mermaids ;)
 

alexshvartsman

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I'm stuck. I am on week 2 of this same story and I am just stuck. And then I find excuses not to write. I work 10-12 hour days in a datacenter a system engineer. Sometimes I work nights. Sometimes I go in real early. I have an 18 month old daughter. My wife is bored at home since school is out (she teaches robotics and engineering at a HS here) and wants my attention too. By the time the day is over and I have private time to myself... I am just too tired and at this point I am frustrated. It is an awful sinking feeling. And now when I try to pick up where I was... everything looks and reads like absolute crap. :)

I don't want to just scrap and start over. I want to say I have finished at least 1 freakin story in my life. Yes, that is right. I have never written a complete story.

I am tempted to tell my wife that I have been writing but tbh, I don't know how to. I know this is utterly silly. My wife has never known me to be the "creative" type. I work in an engineering job. Even though we both knew her getting a Master's degree wasn't exactly going to pay off financially for us, I still supported her (and those damn student loans of hers ha). I just feel weird. It is a very private thing for me to want to write. I could never imagine letting her read anything of mine. I don't think I could handle her laughing at me or not approving.

I'm weird. And tired. And frustrated. lol.


Hi Sudoroot,

I'm going to dispense some unsolicited advice, so please feel free to ignore any or all of it, but I hope some will resonate.

1) Tell your wife about it. Most likely she will understand. Writing is a lonely, difficult, and often frustrating endeavor. Someone recently described it as "assigning yourself really hard homework every day for the rest of your life". You *really* want the support of your family, if you can have it. In most cases, the significant other will either support you at best, or shrug it off at worst, as it's a pretty "safe" hobby. Instead of, say, skydiving, or going out to a strip club, you'll be at home, clicking at your keyboard.

My wife has very little interest in SF/F, but she at least attempts to read some of my stuff and is always happy to hear about my successes, or to lend an ear when I need to vent about an especially tough rejection. Hopefully you will gain a similar ally!

2) If you're like most people, you will never have ample "free time" to write. Like you, I work crazy hours and have a family that wants my attention. I claw out a few hours here and there. If you can find 45 minutes a day to write, you will easily produce 500+ words per day. At that rate you could write a first draft on a novel in 6-8 months!

3) It's frustrating when you get stuck on the story, but it does happen a lot. If you let it sit, your subconscious will continue to mull over the problem until eventually the solution will come. Don't worry about setting one story aside, so long as you are working on something else in the meanwhile.

For me, what works best for short stories is to know where the story begins, and where the story ends. Almost anything in between can change -- but I gain momentum by writing the opening scene which I've already figured out, and every other scene I add must somehow advance the story toward the pre-planned finale.

The most common place for decent stories to fail is the ending. This is because many people do not pre-plan the ending but rather "pants" their way there, and end up with a weaksauce resolution because nothing better came to mind. If you come up with a great arc (beginning to end) you've just avoided a huge potential pitfall, and you are far less likely to get stuck in the middle (though it still happens -- I have several stories like that, half-done because I haven't figured out the right way to get from point A to point Z yet).

So there you have it. This might quite possibly be the longest post I wrote on AbsoluteWrite in my four years here. :)
 

Aislinn

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Hi Sudoroot,

This might quite possibly be the longest post I wrote on AbsoluteWrite in my four years here. :)

May there be many more!

I'm struggling with the 'lack of time' issue too since losing my kid-free hours to paid work.

Even more so, I feel I'm suffering a fundamental lack of motivation - not brought on by despair, almost the opposite. Something like, now that I know I can succeed (occasionally at least), but I also have a realistic idea of the effort involved, do I really want to continue? Is it worth it? I've kind of lost my drive for the moment.

But, I have been known to go after things a bit too hard, so perhaps this is a natural easing off from the first couple of hard years of trying to acquire the skills and riding over all the doubts. With these new skills, I'd like to reach a point of just enjoying the process of planning and writing and developing the skills further... which brings me full circle to the time issue again. It's hard for me to enjoy anything when I'm rushed and stressed.
 

alexshvartsman

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It's hard for me to enjoy anything when I'm rushed and stressed.

We have to face one unpleasant fact -- few if any of us will make a living, or any significant amount of money, writing. Therefore, my attitude toward is: do it for as long as you enjoy it! You have to be excited about the story you're writing, eager to pour it out of yourself and onto the page. Selling the story. submitting, all that is secondary. If the process is still fun, stick with it. If it's not, then it may be quite justifiable to take a break, regroup, or work on something else for a bit.
 

fihr

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We have to face one unpleasant fact -- few if any of us will make a living, or any significant amount of money, writing. Therefore, my attitude toward is: do it for as long as you enjoy it! You have to be excited about the story you're writing, eager to pour it out of yourself and onto the page. Selling the story. submitting, all that is secondary. If the process is still fun, stick with it. If it's not, then it may be quite justifiable to take a break, regroup, or work on something else for a bit.

Completely agree.

Enjoyment, or personal satisfaction (because hard work can be frustrating but feels rewarding when you're done) has to be there. Otherwise, what's the point? None of us has to write. I'm a big believer that life has seasons. Taking a break isn't the end of the world. If it's something you really want to do, you'll come back to it.

I may be on a forced break myself pretty soon. I feel twitchy just thinking about it. But it won't be forever. When I can't write much, I make sure I do a lot of reading, and that helps too.
 

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Been there on the taking a break front. It all became a bit too much for me a few years back. Working full time, studying part time, and writing for at least an hour a day too. Eventually something had to give, or my brain would have melted out of my ears. I put my writing on hold for 5 years until I finished the degree.

Back on the horse now, showing up (almost) every day, but I totally get how if there's too much in your life, it can suck the enjoyment out of something you used to love. It also doesn't help to put pressure on yourself to continually do better if you're stuck in the mud, or to try and get more out of it than it can give you at that moment. I have to take a short break every now and then just to re-evaluate why the heck I'm doing this, and to rediscover the simple joy of it.

All that said, the thought of taking an extended break from writing nowadays makes me feel all kinds of Noooo.
 

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Oh, bugger, I just lost my post. But basically, thanks for all the wisdom. I don't want to take a break, which is what makes the urge to drop the whole thing so curious. I know it's best for me to keep writing but I feel the urge to do what isn't best for me. Ah, I am definitely human.

I'll work on a combination of keeping at it, easing the pressure to succeed and recapturing the fun.
 

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Hi Sudoroot,

I'm going to dispense some unsolicited advice, so please feel free to ignore any or all of it, but I hope some will resonate.

Great post. I really appreciate it, man.

May you have many more long insightful posts here :)

And it all resonated very well.
 

fihr

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Well, I've wrapped up my last story edits, subbed the thing, and now I'm facing some unknown period where I must put all else before my writing. I've got a lot to catch up on though, so when I get back to writing, hopefully I'll feel good about it because so many other things will be wrapped up.

At the same time, I've got two or three unfinished stories on my hard-drive, which I may find I want to pick at if I get the time. Trouble for me is that when I focus on a story (probably like many others), I don't want to focus on other things. I put things off and eventually they catch up with me. Or I forget things because my mind has drifted into the story landscape (like when I'm driving and suddenly I realise, oops, I wasn't meant to go this way today. Concentrate!). At the moment, I need to give those other things 100% attention.

Which is why at the moment, I have to go cold turkey. Ugh.
 
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Semi_Sweet

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I actually find being here motivates me to push on, the writers block threads are great help, words of encouragement people give to each other, the comfort knowing that even the best authors get stuck sometimes. It makes you feel like you're not on your own and I just find something in me and I just write without letting my doubts about things slow me down until after I've gotten further than where I started.
 

StormChild

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I'm struggling with time and motivation right now, and the feeling that every word I get onto the page is carved by hand from raw granite.

I always set my alarm for 4:30 to write, which gave me two clear hours before my day started properly. Now my job has changed so that I'm working evenings and finish at midnight, so needless to say no early starts. With three kids including a two-year-old it's practically impossible to find time during the day. When I do, I'm too tired to type anything remotely creative.

I'm hoping that I can find my mojo again. For now I'm struggling.