Is the short story market no longer viable?

Hapax Legomenon said:

Well if a magazine publishes reprints, then where's the harm in self-pubbing as well?

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It's not the same thing. Most magazines that sell reprints pay close attention to where the story was published before. A self-published story has essentially been published both everywhere and nowhere. There just isn't much reason to buy a story that has been self-published.

HoosierJoe said:

Now, my experience is that many of them do not pay or pay little. I look at writing not as a vocation but a passion. I have little illusion that I will ever make a living from it.

Yes, I believe there is a market for short stories. And yes, I believe that most of those markets are little read online magazines that don't pay.

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I don't think it's about vocation versus passion. We all have a passion for writing short stories, but handing them off for free usually means you're unlike to ever be as good as you should be. It's simply too easy, and with a tiny few exceptions, the quality isn't there because really good writers seldom go this route, and there's no competition high enough to guarantee quality.

Passion is good, but the value you place on yourself and your writing can make all the difference in how successful you are, and even in how you're viewed by readers, editors, etc.

And I really find it impossible to call a little online mag that doesn't pay a "market". A "market" means money of some kind, even if it isn't much. There are many, many markets that do pay, and letting stories go to markets that don't pay, again with very rare exceptions where prestige and competition can mean as much as pay, almost always means you'll have far more trouble getting into top magazines.

Editors, and readers, tend to place the same value on a writer that he place son himself. Like many editors, if I see a writer has placed several stories in tiny no pay magazines, but none in pay magazines, particularly good pay magazines, I tend to think it's because he isn't capable of writing stories that fit the large mags in a given genre or area.

Jamesaritchie said:

I don't think it's about vocation versus passion. We all have a passion for writing short stories, but handing them off for free usually means you're unlike to ever be as good as you should be. It's simply too easy, and with a tiny few exceptions, the quality isn't there because really good writers seldom go this route, and there's no competition high enough to guarantee quality.

Passion is good, but the value you place on yourself and your writing can make all the difference in how successful you are, and even in how you're viewed by readers, editors, etc.

And I really find it impossible to call a little online mag that doesn't pay a "market". A "market" means money of some kind, even if it isn't much. There are many, many markets that do pay, and letting stories go to markets that don't pay, again with very rare exceptions where prestige and competition can mean as much as pay, almost always means you'll have far more trouble getting into top magazines.

Editors, and readers, tend to place the same value on a writer that he place son himself. Like many editors, if I see a writer has placed several stories in tiny no pay magazines, but none in pay magazines, particularly good pay magazines, I tend to think it's because he isn't capable of writing stories that fit the large mags in a given genre or area.

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Thanks for an editors POV. Although I have seen it said differently. That pursuing the non pay small mags will lead editors in the larger markets to look at you differently(more favorably because you got published somewhere). I have also seen comments from writers to take the scattergun approach and submit everywhere hoping for a hit. Then I have seen others say to be selective. I guess it's all in what you feel comfortable with.

But I do appreciate you stating how you look at things.

HoosierJoe said:

Thanks for an editors POV. Although I have seen it said differently. That pursuing the non pay small mags will lead editors in the larger markets to look at you differently(more favorably because you got published somewhere). I have also seen comments from writers to take the scattergun approach and submit everywhere hoping for a hit. Then I have seen others say to be selective. I guess it's all in what you feel comfortable with.

But I do appreciate you stating how you look at things.

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Getting pubished "somewhere" is seldom a good thing. I'd much rather read a manuscript from a writer who hasn't been published at all, than read one from a write who has only no-pay credits.

One reason for this is simple. Most writers follow the start at the top, work your way down submission policy. It's a wise policy for two reasons. 1. Facing that kind of competition with your stories is what makes you a better writer. 2. If you start at teh top, and work your way down, the best magazine that wants your story will buy it. If you start at the bottom, the worst magazine that wants your story will grab it.

Because I know this is standard submission policy, when a writer has only tiny, no-pay credits, it tells me none of the paying magazines wanted any of his stories.

Since this is how it works, I think a writer who wants to hit the bigger markets should avoid submitting to tiny, no-pay magazines that won't even count as a good credit, and almost none of these do.

As for scattergun or selective, my experience as a writer is that if your stories are any good, you don't have to scattergun them, and if they aren't any good, scattergunning them won't help.

Along these lines, as a writer, I started selling much better, to larger magazines, and at a far higher percentage, when I started doing what I thought should have been obvious, but wasn't. I started reading several issues of a given magazine, which every writer should do, and I learned to give that editor something he wanted, but that no one else in the world could give him.

In order to sell a short story to a good magazine, you have to beat out the best writers in the world. These writers have a ton of talent, and skill to match, so beating them by submitting stories anyone could write isn't likely to work. In some way, your story has to be better than theirs. Not as good as, but better. I found teh way to do this was to be original, and the only way I found to be original was to give editors me.

I had to give that editor a detailed new setting he hadn't seen, characters he hadn't met, and often with professions that usually don't crop up in magazines. I know farm life, I know small, Midwest farm towns, and the people who live there, as well as I know myself, I've been places and done things, etc. We're all unique, and I put what made me unique into stories. They still had to be well-written, but by giving editors what no one else could give them, I've been able to beat out a lot of writers who have more talent and more skill.

As an editor, I can almost always tell when a writer reads the mag. If he don't, stories tend not to fit very well. Even if a writer does read the mag, far too many stories read like everything I've already published. You shouldn't read a magazine in order to give editors stories like they've already published, or already seen.

You needed to find things the editor would love, but that no one has submitted, or can submit, except for you.

Anyway, if you do find yourself with too many bad credits, just don't mention all of them in a cover letter. If you think one or two are good enough to mention, do so, but that's it. Better no credits than too many bad credits.

HoosierJoe said:

Thanks for an editors POV. Although I have seen it said differently. That pursuing the non pay small mags will lead editors in the larger markets to look at you differently(more favorably because you got published somewhere). I have also seen comments from writers to take the scattergun approach and submit everywhere hoping for a hit. Then I have seen others say to be selective. I guess it's all in what you feel comfortable with.

But I do appreciate you stating how you look at things.

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I do agree with James about a bunch of no-name credits not really helping a writer. If you publish ten stories, but, as an editor, I have never heard of them or I look them up and I'm not impressed, those publication are really not doing anything to help you.

However, I think it is more about the reputation and how known the publication and who is publishing it over how much it pays. I would love to get a story in Mid-American Review, published by Bowling Green State University. They don't pay, but have a good reputation.

When it comes to publishing short fiction, I think doing a little homework can help quite a bit. I used to send a lot of submissions out, but all of them went to places I thought would be a good literary credit. There are a lot of smaller publications that are tied to Universities and MFA programs. I think those can be good credits even if they don't pay. But I think many of them are still hard to get into. These are more for literary writers than genre for the most part.

Anyone can start a magazine. I started my own magazine about a year ago. My magazine in a print magazine with a very specific focus. I have published some great work even though I do not have the funds to pay writers. I pay them in copies. Still, I solicit most of the content. My writers have impressive bios and are used to getting paid, but many of them made an exception for my magazine.

I don't think how much a place pays is the most important thing, at least not for me. But I do only want to publish places that I respect and would be proud to have my work in. For the most part, the best places pay, but sometimes a writer might be willing to forgo that for reasons such as prestige or, in the case of my magazine, a niche publication with a strong focus, raising important topics and constantly putting out good writing.

gettingby said:

I do agree with James about a bunch of no-name credits not really helping a writer. If you publish ten stories, but, as an editor, I have never heard of them or I look them up and I'm not impressed, those publication are really not doing anything to help you.

However, I think it is more about the reputation and how known the publication and who is publishing it over how much it pays. I would love to get a story in Mid-American Review, published by Bowling Green State University. They don't pay, but have a good reputation.

When it comes to publishing short fiction, I think doing a little homework can help quite a bit. I used to send a lot of submissions out, but all of them went to places I thought would be a good literary credit. There are a lot of smaller publications that are tied to Universities and MFA programs. I think those can be good credits even if they don't pay. But I think many of them are still hard to get into. These are more for literary writers than genre for the most part.

Anyone can start a magazine. I started my own magazine about a year ago. My magazine in a print magazine with a very specific focus. I have published some great work even though I do not have the funds to pay writers. I pay them in copies. Still, I solicit most of the content. My writers have impressive bios and are used to getting paid, but many of them made an exception for my magazine.

I don't think how much a place pays is the most important thing, at least not for me. But I do only want to publish places that I respect and would be proud to have my work in. For the most part, the best places pay, but sometimes a writer might be willing to forgo that for reasons such as prestige or, in the case of my magazine, a niche publication with a strong focus, raising important topics and constantly putting out good writing.

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There are a few no-pay literary magazines that have such high prestige they make very good credits. But these few magazines are just as hard to break into as paying magazines, so why not start with the paying magazines, and work your way down to these?

My feeling is that writers deserve to be paid, and those who start magazines pay every other cost because they have no choice. They should have no choice but to pay writers, either. They find the money for everything else, but when it comes to paying writers, there's no money. I find this sad because without the writers, there is no magazine. It's the age old story, though. Let me pay everything else, and if I have any money left, I'll pay you a token.

This is understandable with some college literary magazines, though the good ones pay writers there, as well. I don't think it's ever acceptable with a non-college literary magazine. Save your money for a year, and then start a magazine that pays. You get better writers, and have more prestige, right from teh start, and you'll be paying writers.

Too many writers think writing for free is meaningful, and it almost never is. Too many who start magazines think writers should write for free because they didn't plan ahead. But writers are all suckers, and as long as everything else gets paid, who cares?

It's simple supply and demand with literary magazines. There are many more good stories out there than readers for them. Short stories compete with all other kinds of entertainment, not just other short stories, and they are nowhere near a top preference of consumers anymore. I know of many no-pay (and often "no charge" as well) literary magazines that are chock full of excellent stories, firsthand, from actually reading them. I know of others that do pay that I'd say are quite mediocre. Anyone can start a magazine and pay a few bucks from their day job or whatever to the writers. That doesn't mean they have any editing experience or any readers. There's no shortcut for knowing your markets.

However, I'd do it for the love in the first place. It's just not a good bet at all for trying to make a living or even as a halfway decent supplementary income and hasn't been for decades. You don't need a resume to impress an editor anyway. Above all else they care about the submission you've sent to them (unless you are famous). Novels are a much better bet, money-wise, and even they are usually no career path to count on.