I think the actual percentage is a lot closer to .0001%, which is many trillions of times more optimistic. It's not every day that I can multiply my optimism by so many trillions, so thank you.
"YA careers [...] are not generally built to last"
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I think the actual percentage is a lot closer to .0001%, which is many trillions of times more optimistic. It's not every day that I can multiply my optimism by so many trillions, so thank you.
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Haha, anything I can do to help.
It's all about what will make us happy. Clearly enough of us know the risks and hurdles and want to keep going anyway.
It's all about what will make us happy. Clearly enough of us know the risks and hurdles and want to keep going anyway.
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I was looking around for the numbers breakdown someone did a few years back. Turns out it was Mandy Hubbard Here it is.
Important info for anyone who wonders about how the money and stability shake out behind the scenes.
Here it is.Important info for anyone who wonders about how the money and stability shake out behind the scenes.
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Maybe it's the connections thing, too.
I mean, if I imagine myself doing it... here I am, I wrote The Book. Now I have a rock star agent who knows what's hot and knows the right people and knows the beats. Now I have a name that actually means something. So now instead of trying to please the market while sitting outside in the cold having to second-guess everything I'm right in the middle of it. I can ask my agent if she thinks my new idea is going to sell. I can be sure my new ms is actually being pitched to editors. I'm given advice, even though I still have to deliver, it's like the difference between having a Glonass Galileo GPS installed and wandering around in the dark with an old map and a broken compass.
It's like... if you are Angelina J, this fact alone might not make your next movie an instant hit, but you are still ages away from a nobody actress from Nowhereville trying to impress someone at a random audution. Even if you are not Angie, but at least got a hit part in a TV show. At least it's more than nothing, and it's half about negotiations anyway.
Isn't that just a little bit golden?
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I think when I first started working on "writing a book", I totally had the vision of mega bestseller and Oprah and movie deals and throwing money in the air like Idon'tevenknowimsorich
And then, as things got serious and I got more educated, it moved to wanting, yanno, an agent and a deal and if we could make it an amazing debut that sells fantastic and maybe, just maybe a movie gets made and wouldn't that just be fabulous.
And then I arrived at this weird place where I'm not thinking in terms of one book, I'm thinking in terms of a career. So, not too big. Not too much money. Moderate advance. Mid-list. Sales a reliable slow burner. And I think *that* is what starts a solid career trajectory (which is more my goal now then when I started).
You don't want to start at your peak, right? And I think it's much harder to build a long term career when you peak right out of the gate.
But then again, I'm writing as the non-working parent (so we aren't relying on my income) and I'm writing in contemporary section of YA, which is pretty persistent even when it's not in style. And as a reader, I've always been consistently attracted to books with a certain amount of staying power.
And then, as things got serious and I got more educated, it moved to wanting, yanno, an agent and a deal and if we could make it an amazing debut that sells fantastic and maybe, just maybe a movie gets made and wouldn't that just be fabulous.
And then I arrived at this weird place where I'm not thinking in terms of one book, I'm thinking in terms of a career. So, not too big. Not too much money. Moderate advance. Mid-list. Sales a reliable slow burner. And I think *that* is what starts a solid career trajectory (which is more my goal now then when I started).
You don't want to start at your peak, right? And I think it's much harder to build a long term career when you peak right out of the gate.
But then again, I'm writing as the non-working parent (so we aren't relying on my income) and I'm writing in contemporary section of YA, which is pretty persistent even when it's not in style. And as a reader, I've always been consistently attracted to books with a certain amount of staying power.
This - right here. I just want to make enough to justify putting my kids in daycare so I can write and contributing to my family a little bit. I mean, a made more before I quit my job to stay home with kiddos than the $30K mentioned in someone else's post, but right now I'd take it so I can make writing a full time gig. It's what I want to do, no matter what, but getting paid would be great!
Re: the bolded part... I've noticed this. There are probably very few full-time YA writers who aren't married or relying on someone else's income at least a bit. It makes me feel very unfeminist for saying it, but I'd looove to marry someone who could support me while I write! Even if I'd just have to have a part-time job, that would be fabulous right about now
Yeah, I've got that sort of. My husband made far more money than I did, so I was the one to stay home with kids. (He would have loved too!) Now, my goal as stated before is to make it lucrative. If I ever reach THE DREAM where I make more than him annually, then he's quitting and staying home!
Maybe it's the connections thing, too.
I mean, if I imagine myself doing it... here I am, I wrote The Book. Now I have a rock star agent who knows what's hot and knows the right people and knows the beats. Now I have a name that actually means something. So now instead of trying to please the market while sitting outside in the cold having to second-guess everything I'm right in the middle of it. I can ask my agent if she thinks my new idea is going to sell. I can be sure my new ms is actually being pitched to editors. I'm given advice, even though I still have to deliver, it's like the difference between having a Glonass Galileo GPS installed and wandering around in the dark with an old map and a broken compass.
It's like... if you are Angelina J, this fact alone might not make your next movie an instant hit, but you are still ages away from a nobody actress from Nowhereville trying to impress someone at a random audution. Even if you are not Angie, but at least got a hit part in a TV show. At least it's more than nothing, and it's half about negotiations anyway.
Isn't that just a little bit golden?
Yeah. This. I'd rather have the "struggle" of trying to write book 2 inside the industry than the STRUGGLE of writing book 1 outside the loop!
Yes! I'd rather have a long consistent career, than a skyrocket fizzle to ignominy.
Agreed on the slow-burning, steadily growing career versus the meteoric, unpredictable crazy one.
And ahh... I'd love to make 30k. That's a 50% increase over what I make now! #verypoorstudentwithcrappyjob
And ahh... I'd love to make 30k. That's a 50% increase over what I make now! #verypoorstudentwithcrappyjob
I'm at a point where I can imagine self-publishing my books and being pretty OK with it. But I have this idea in my head that if you don't trade publish your debut, you will never be taken seriously by that world unless you strike it rich in self-publishing, which is highly unlikely. And I want to be taken seriously; I admit it, I want validation from gatekeepers.
The problem is, the gatekeepers aren't that consistent, because the market isn't. I've had the experience of feeling wanted by someone who hopes you have the next break-out hit only to be dropped without ceremony when it turns out others don't agree with that assessment. I keep telling myself that if I could really write, they'd consistently want me, and maybe that's true. Maybe it's a matter of practicing craft and getting better, and the stuff that sells is head and shoulders above what I can produce. But I don't know. I'm tired of berating myself for not working hard enough on my craft after each form rejection.
The problem is, the gatekeepers aren't that consistent, because the market isn't. I've had the experience of feeling wanted by someone who hopes you have the next break-out hit only to be dropped without ceremony when it turns out others don't agree with that assessment. I keep telling myself that if I could really write, they'd consistently want me, and maybe that's true. Maybe it's a matter of practicing craft and getting better, and the stuff that sells is head and shoulders above what I can produce. But I don't know. I'm tired of berating myself for not working hard enough on my craft after each form rejection.
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Re: slow-burning career
I get kind of scared about the midlist lull. Heard too many horror stories about being stuck there forever with publishers more willing to promote promising newcomers.
I get kind of scared about the midlist lull. Heard too many horror stories about being stuck there forever with publishers more willing to promote promising newcomers.
I think a lot of us experience this swing of self-doubt. I will say, as someone who has an agent, the validation from someone on the "inside" helps soothe the self-doubt monster, but the beast never really goes away. It waits around the corner, just out of sight, ready to pop it's ferocious head out with every editor rejection.
The thing is, so much about this industry is out of our hands. That's where, for me, it gets really depressing if I think about it too much. You can write a book that your agent loves, that editors love, but still not get an offer because they already have something similar, or an author already on their list is working on something similar, or the publisher bought a similar book that didn't sell and now they're gun-shy, and on and on. A lot of times it has nothing to do with your writing. It's a vicious cycle of trying to be good enough, of thinking "if I could only write better" when maybe it's not your writing but the market, or maybe it is your writing and the kind rejections are blowing smoke, and the thing is you don't know. And maybe you'll never really know, so there's only one thing you can do:
Keep writing. Keep trucking up the hill. Keep trying to make yourself better. And keep remembering that so much is out of your hands. Whether you self-publish, get an agent, an offer from an editor, a six figure advance, a tiny advance, a marketing plan, etc. You don't have control over much of this. You don't have control over whether people read your books, or whether they like them. The only control you have is over what you write.
I think that's the crux. The more I ponder this thread and the article that started it, the more I think: who cares if some people think YA careers aren't built to last? Who are they to say? (I mean, look at Judy Blume, arguably one of the first YA writers, with a great career). The only thing each of us can really do, is write the best book we can, put the best version of ourselves out into the world, and see what happens.
Don't do that! A form rejection is just as likely to be "this isn't a genre I want" as it is "your writing isn't good enough." You can't read anything into them, as hard as that is. And your writing *is* good, dammit.
I'm in the same boat as you. I work part-time and stay home with the kids part-time and bring in next to no money as a result, so just covering daycare plus a bit of money would make me happy. Having said that, though, daycare is fricking expensive!!
Uh, yeah it is! We have twins, which means double the money for everything! Plus, they were preemies, so they're still on expensive formula at two-years-old. We keep wondering where all of our money goes, because my husband has a good job and we don't really live extravagantly, but a big chunk is definitely on those two cute little monsters. They go to daycare two days a week so I can write, which makes me feel guilty we're spending money on my writing career when I'm not financially contributing, but I don't know how I would get anything done with out it!
OMG if I had two-year-old twins I think I'd need two days off a week just to sleep. You shouldn't feel guilty at all!
This sort of articles amuse me bc the so-called "authority" sharing this wisdom is anonymous. It's easier to make sweeping generalizations than to look at the facts.
I'm going to reply to this with some FACTS bc . . .well, I snorted in laughter at the article.
Twilight aspect aside . . . no, actually, not aside. I suppose there are authors who did follow a trend, but I suspect this is one of those easy to cast stones statements. Facts: My book was being written before Twilight came out. Kelley was writing adult UF, as were Rachel Caine & Richelle Mead. Cassie was writing in this genre (in fanfic), Marg/Kami wrote theirs for their kids & a friend sent it to his agent without telling them, and . . . the list goes on. Honestly, I know it's easy to say someone hopped on a bandwagon, but the truth is that in most cases that's not accurate. Many of those books may have received better advances bc publishers were looking for them, but that's not "hopping on a bandwagon," it's getting lucky and selling in a buying market.
I don't know ANY of the big PR YA writers who are "shocked" at deals decreasing or not doing solo tours or having conspiracies theories. Expecting major lit awards for PR? Um, no one I know thought that either.
Solo tours? Many of us prefer travel with friends. In fact, Kelley & I organized a giant group tour (http://www.smartchickskickit.com) for 3 years in a row (2009-2012) because we LIKE touring with friends. Over 3 years, Kelley & I invited a lot of the people who would fit the criteria in this article--Kami & Marg (Beautiful Creatures), Richelle (Vamp Academy), Cassie (TMI), Veronica (Divergent), Holly (Spiderwick, Tithe, etc), Rachel Caine (Morganville), Melissa de la Cruz (Blue Bloods), Ally (Matched), Alison Noel, & about 20 other authors over the 3 years we did it. We had a fabulous time traveling together.
Touring is lovely to meet readers, but no one I know is weeping over doing less. Without violating any privacy, I'll point out the things that are public knowledge: in the last 2 years, Ally, Richelle, & I all became new moms again. I won't speak for them, but I will say that I asked not to tour. I toured a lot in 2012 & did every conference my publishers asked me to do bc I planned to not travel bc of baby. I'll be traveling again this year, but … not as much.
Even if authors do want to tour, we're businesswomen who can clearly see that
a) group events sell more books as a rule,
b) there are less bookstores, too. Borders is gone. B&N locations have closed.
c) Ebook sales rise yearly.
Solo tours are simply not as practical. I've yet to hear anyone whine about that.
Deal sizes & woe? Um, no again. All of the people on that list above are still doing what we love. Some deals are smaller, some bigger, some the same. Deals are based on sales, the project, the market, etc. Again, I have yet to hear woe.
Many of us were & are writing in other genres too, but that's not a new thing either.
And as for the porn & pseudonyms part . . . Do I know authors who are experimenting with indie? Sure. We're authors bc we like to write. The indie market is this big open frontier. Of course people will experiment!
Do I know authors who write adult content? Yep. Are there others I don't know who might be? Possibly. So what? If I did it, I'd use a different name too. Librarians matter in MG & YA; readers matter. Reviewers matter. Using a different name for different genres is simply a way to separate them.
Sometimes I think that there's something oddly tempting about trying to say controversial or somehow "edgy" things about YA. There are so many articles with this or that inflammatory invitation. I'd just hate to see them discourage pre-published writers.
[Edited for copyedit corrections.]
I'm going to reply to this with some FACTS bc . . .well, I snorted in laughter at the article.
Twilight aspect aside . . . no, actually, not aside. I suppose there are authors who did follow a trend, but I suspect this is one of those easy to cast stones statements. Facts: My book was being written before Twilight came out. Kelley was writing adult UF, as were Rachel Caine & Richelle Mead. Cassie was writing in this genre (in fanfic), Marg/Kami wrote theirs for their kids & a friend sent it to his agent without telling them, and . . . the list goes on. Honestly, I know it's easy to say someone hopped on a bandwagon, but the truth is that in most cases that's not accurate. Many of those books may have received better advances bc publishers were looking for them, but that's not "hopping on a bandwagon," it's getting lucky and selling in a buying market.
I don't know ANY of the big PR YA writers who are "shocked" at deals decreasing or not doing solo tours or having conspiracies theories. Expecting major lit awards for PR? Um, no one I know thought that either.
Solo tours? Many of us prefer travel with friends. In fact, Kelley & I organized a giant group tour (http://www.smartchickskickit.com) for 3 years in a row (2009-2012) because we LIKE touring with friends. Over 3 years, Kelley & I invited a lot of the people who would fit the criteria in this article--Kami & Marg (Beautiful Creatures), Richelle (Vamp Academy), Cassie (TMI), Veronica (Divergent), Holly (Spiderwick, Tithe, etc), Rachel Caine (Morganville), Melissa de la Cruz (Blue Bloods), Ally (Matched), Alison Noel, & about 20 other authors over the 3 years we did it. We had a fabulous time traveling together.
Touring is lovely to meet readers, but no one I know is weeping over doing less. Without violating any privacy, I'll point out the things that are public knowledge: in the last 2 years, Ally, Richelle, & I all became new moms again. I won't speak for them, but I will say that I asked not to tour. I toured a lot in 2012 & did every conference my publishers asked me to do bc I planned to not travel bc of baby. I'll be traveling again this year, but … not as much.
Even if authors do want to tour, we're businesswomen who can clearly see that
a) group events sell more books as a rule,
b) there are less bookstores, too. Borders is gone. B&N locations have closed.
c) Ebook sales rise yearly.
Solo tours are simply not as practical. I've yet to hear anyone whine about that.
Deal sizes & woe? Um, no again. All of the people on that list above are still doing what we love. Some deals are smaller, some bigger, some the same. Deals are based on sales, the project, the market, etc. Again, I have yet to hear woe.
Many of us were & are writing in other genres too, but that's not a new thing either.
- Kelley wrote adult UF since around 2001.
- Rachel wrote romance & fantasy at least as long--& she just had a Shakespearean YA that was soundly embraced by the industry.
- Alison N wrote contemporary previously.
- Holly started in both YA & MG. Her new series just had a cover reveal in USAT. Her last MG won a major award.
- Kam & Marg have BC spin-offs, solo books, & a film.
- Richelle has a film, spin-offs, AND an adult series (she wrote did before YA too).
- I've been genre hopping since right after I sold my first YA (sold adult in 2008, sold MG in 2011, picture book sold in 2013). Hopping is fun.
And as for the porn & pseudonyms part . . . Do I know authors who are experimenting with indie? Sure. We're authors bc we like to write. The indie market is this big open frontier. Of course people will experiment!
Do I know authors who write adult content? Yep. Are there others I don't know who might be? Possibly. So what? If I did it, I'd use a different name too. Librarians matter in MG & YA; readers matter. Reviewers matter. Using a different name for different genres is simply a way to separate them.
Sometimes I think that there's something oddly tempting about trying to say controversial or somehow "edgy" things about YA. There are so many articles with this or that inflammatory invitation. I'd just hate to see them discourage pre-published writers.
[Edited for copyedit corrections.]
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Thanks Melissa! Great to hear an established writers opinion on something we all wonder about. If and when I ever have an established career, I fully intend on genre-jumping. Not because I want to ensure my living, though it helps, but because my imagination can't be contained by one group! I love to write and imagine and I want to share my creativity with anyone who will bless me with their attention.
Thanks Melissa!
Although I don't fault the author for writing anonymously. It can be hard to express your true opinions wrt industry stuff as a writer, in the YA community as well, if those opinions at least seem to go against the grain - or if they feel too cynical or harsh, or if it criticizes any aspect of the industry/community etc. People who have honest criticisms or frustrations towards the industry/community often feel that by speaking those thoughts out loud, they risk alienation by the larger community, or some other repercussion. I don't blame them for feeling that way and for consequently using anonymity to share thoughts they feel they otherwise might not be able to say out.
Personally, I'm still unsure about how I feel about the article, but it has led to some interesting discussion here.
Although I don't fault the author for writing anonymously. It can be hard to express your true opinions wrt industry stuff as a writer, in the YA community as well, if those opinions at least seem to go against the grain - or if they feel too cynical or harsh, or if it criticizes any aspect of the industry/community etc. People who have honest criticisms or frustrations towards the industry/community often feel that by speaking those thoughts out loud, they risk alienation by the larger community, or some other repercussion. I don't blame them for feeling that way and for consequently using anonymity to share thoughts they feel they otherwise might not be able to say out.
Personally, I'm still unsure about how I feel about the article, but it has led to some interesting discussion here.
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I agree, it's almost like "You got published? Don't you dare say anything that sounds less than happy now, 'cause we all want your life." Like celebrities are not allowed to complain about the negative sides of the biz. Only on a lesser, milder scale.
Genre hopping seems like a wise decision to me, regardless of trends. Otherwise, you become known as the vampire writer, or what have you. Personally, I have interests in a lot of genres bc I read a lot of them. I am writing YA futuristic fantasy now. I have ideas stirring for books later on in MG sci-fi and contemporary, magical realism, YA contemporary, adult thriller, etc, and I look forward to stretching myself as a writer and not settling into a certain mode. This also broadens your market too. The let is to just be a writer and write what you like writing at the time and what is working for you. Most of the success stories are writers who got lucky by writing something that was about to be a trend, not writing into a trend.
Yeah, sorry, but that post has so many factual errors and false assumptions it's hardly worth discussing.
-Says the girl who wrote a chick-lit YA book in 2009 which released with a hot pink cover, and is her bestselling book to date.
Seriously though, I don't believe there's ever been a time that writing and publishing was easy, and certainly not a time--or a genre--where longevity was easy. But I do know tons of YA writers who have been able to reinvent themselves and keep writing.
I debuted in 2009 and our Debut group had like 60 or 70 authors in it. A couple dozen of us still check in every tuesday and update each other on what we're writing/publishing. I know 5 years is still a very short amount of time, but we sold our debuts in 2007 or 2008, and have books slated in 2015 and 2016. (And yes I know 7 or 8 years is ALSO not a long amount of time.)
This is publishing. It's hard. It's always going to be hard. But it's also worth it.
-Says the girl who wrote a chick-lit YA book in 2009 which released with a hot pink cover, and is her bestselling book to date.
Seriously though, I don't believe there's ever been a time that writing and publishing was easy, and certainly not a time--or a genre--where longevity was easy. But I do know tons of YA writers who have been able to reinvent themselves and keep writing.
I debuted in 2009 and our Debut group had like 60 or 70 authors in it. A couple dozen of us still check in every tuesday and update each other on what we're writing/publishing. I know 5 years is still a very short amount of time, but we sold our debuts in 2007 or 2008, and have books slated in 2015 and 2016. (And yes I know 7 or 8 years is ALSO not a long amount of time.)
This is publishing. It's hard. It's always going to be hard. But it's also worth it.
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So we can assume the author of that post probably doesn't have as much experience within the industry as they claim to have?