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FergieC

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With respect, Old Hack, that's making the assumption that YWO is out to somehow scam new writers. Having been using the site for about a year now, I don't think this is in anyway the case, and if it were the case, there is no way so many industry professionals would be involved with it (unless you're assuming they've also been scammed).

As quoted in the post before yours:

Our critique system, book awards, publisher and agent affiliations, and the excellent publicity obtained for new writers is intended to be a springboard for writers to use to their best advantage, such as with the new writers mentioned above. The choice always remains with the writer "

So if the choice, and all the rights remain with the author at all times, what's the problem? It looks like a genuine attempt to get the winning authors noticed and published, which is what the site claimed to do. It's claim has always been to help writers develop (which it does through crits and professional crits for the best ones) and get those who are already writing at a publishable level noticed (which it does through BOTY, the short-lists, press coverage etc, and the option of self-publishing).

So far, it's lived up to those claims, and there has been no hint of scamage (is that a word?) going on. No one has asked for money - other writing sites which are considerably less useful do - no one has asked for anything to be signed, there has been no "forcing" anyone to do anything.

You say:

It seems that one of the conditions of uploading your work onto YWO is that it is then automatically entered into a competition

That's not true. There's a whole process, which includes being voted into "bestsellers", getting the professional critique etc. You can remove your book any time you want. To be considered for BOTY you also had to do a certain number of crits a month for the last couple of months prior to judging (I don't know how strictly they upheld that, but if you didn't want to be considered, the option was there).

I don't think it's helpful to other writers at all if people leap to negative conclusions based on no evidence and no real knowledge.
 

Roger J Carlson

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It's a bit presumptuous to baby writers like you suggest and not credit them with the intelligence to make their own choices. I don't know if I'd publish my book when its finished but I'd at least like the choice. I didn't know much about it being possible to publish your own book but the funny thing I found is that their are ads for publishing your own book on this site and members who seem to get a kick out of it and make some sales mentioned on this forum. It seems hypocritical to promote publishing here and then diss it and infer your members who publish don't know what they're doing. I don't know if its a good thing one way or other but if these people get a kick out of it why not?
This bit has me confused over what you mean by "published". The word has a lot of different meanings and covers a broad range of business models.

On the two extremes are "commercial publishing" and "self publishing". Both can be legitimate. Commercial publishing is when a publisher pays you to publish your book. Self publishing is when you pay the publisher to publish your book. But it gets even more complicated because both commercial and self publishing come in a spectrum of business models.

Commercial publishing come in three broad categories: large publishers, small publishers, and micro publishers (presses). Large publishers are the large houses most people would recognize: Doubleday, Harper Collins and the like. These will usually pay an advance, provide promotion, and provide distribution to bookstores. Small publishers also pay you to publish your book, but they may not pay an advance (or it may be a small advance), but they will still promote and distribute your books to bookstores. Micro publisher don't often pay an advance and they may not have promotion or distribution capabilities. Often it is only through their website or Amazon, etc.

Self publishing can also be a legitimate outlet for a writer. Especially in non-fiction where you have a venue to distribute yourself (like the lecture circuit where you sell your book in the lobby.) Self-publishing fiction is usually a lose-lose situation. Stories of successful self-published fiction are largely myths.

Some self publishing outfits are actual scams. They pretend to be "traditional publishers" (a term scams invented to legitimize themselves), but they actually make most or all of their money from the authors rather than selling books. Publish America comes to mind as one of the most egregious of these.

But there is also a gray area that are not quite legitimate publishers and not quite scams. Some of these are started by clueless people who think they've invented something new. Others start out as legitmate, but go over to the dark side when they can't make money through legitimate means. Often, micro presses will offer "co-publishing" deals with the author to defray expenses. These are not always out-right scams, but they are usually not in the best interests of the author either.

From what I've seen, YouWriteOn falls into the "thinks they've invented something new" category. No one here has called them a scam, but we have pointed out inconsistencies and places where it's not the best deal for the writer.

In this we ARE sticking together. I don't want to see some other writer making what I consider a mistake without at least saying something about it. No one here is making any sort of decision for anyone else. Everyone is free to make their own decisions, but by offering cautionary advice, people are free to make their own informed decisions.
 

Roger J Carlson

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I don't think it's helpful to other writers at all if people leap to negative conclusions based on no evidence and no real knowledge.
On the contrary. The ONLY way people can make informed decisions is if opposing viewpoints are presented.
 

veinglory

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"Babbying" writers would be to suggest they can't read over an open discussion and draw their own conclusions. Is the fact that people here have different perspectives, priorities and opinions too much for their little brains?

Yes, um, I have heard of the BBC but I don't consider everything they cover to be endorsed by them and I know they sometimes report based on unchecked press releases. "Aunty" is as apt to fall for style over substance as any of us. I've also seen enormously respected news sources report the joys of a revolutionary new approach to publishing provided by Publish America.

I have nothing against what YWO is (a service and community with some merits and obvious substance), but some reservations about what it presents itself as (the substance:style ratio). The fact that some of the ardent "defenders" don't see a difference between discussion and bashing worries me more than anything else. Services and publishers require users and authors--neither requires devotees unable to accept any dissent.
 
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Roger J Carlson

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It seems hypocritical to promote publishing here and then diss it and infer your members who publish don't know what they're doing. I don't know if its a good thing one way or other but if these people get a kick out of it why not? "
One last thing. This site does not universally "diss" self publishing. As I said, in the right circumstances, it can be the right choice. We even have a Self Publishing forum here.

However, if you are referring to the Google Ads on this site, you should know that Absolute Write is not responsible for placing these, nor do we endorse them. They provide revenue for the maintenance for the forums so they can continue to be free. But Google places the actual ads by reading the contents of the page and placing ads that seem to match that.

We DO have the ability to block certain ads and have done so with the most scammy of publishers and agents. However, these scammers find increasingly clever ways around our blocks. Just because an ad appears here, you should not assume it is legitimate or that we endorse it. We continue to block the worst offenders as we find them.

On the other hand, we do allow ads by many of those in the gray areas. These companies are not out-right scams, but sometimes their practices are a little wonky. We leave them because we believe people have the right to make their own decisions. We are not "Big Brother".

The best bet is to check any ad against the INDEX TO AGENTS, PUBLISHERS, AND OTHERS here to see what the pros here think about it, then decide for yourself.
 

FergieC

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The ONLY way people can make informed decisions is if opposing viewpoints are presented.

I agree up to a point, but the discussion and viewpoints have to be informed for the decisions to be informed. Pure speculation with no evidence or knowledge isn't helpful to anyone.
 

veinglory

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I have seen a lot of information presented here--and several corrections of fact that addressed unfounded concerns about YWO.
 

Roger J Carlson

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I agree up to a point, but the discussion and viewpoints have to be informed for the decisions to be informed. Pure speculation with no evidence or knowledge isn't helpful to anyone.
Who decides which viewpoints are informed and which are not?
 

Old Hack

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YWO's FAQs are poorly worded (never a great sign) but having been through them all I don't think that it's correct to suggest that winning the competition obliges you to publish via their POD publishing arm.

When I read their FAQ page, it stated,

"The completed book of the highest rated opening chapters of the year will be awarded our Book of The Year Publishing Award – the winner’s book will be published by YouWriteOn and available to order by customers as a paperback through booksellers such as Amazon, W.H. Smith, Barnes and Noble and Waterstones."

Not "could be published", but "will be published", which doesn't suggest that there's much choice given in the matter. They could mean something different and indeed, had I read through their website further I might have taken away an entirely different opinion. But for a site that is all about writing, I feel quite strongly that if their writing isn't completely clear then that's a bad sign.

Regardless of my concerns, winning any competition like that is an achievement so best wishes to those who've done well out of it.

I'm with you entirely on that one. I know only too well the thrill of winning a prize for writing, and I'd not take that away from anyone. I might be pea-green, but I'd not want to take it away!
 

victoriastrauss

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With respect, Old Hack, that's making the assumption that YWO is out to somehow scam new writers.
I don't think Old Hack was making that assumption. I think she was pointing out that YWO is presenting a bad idea (POD "availability" as a way to get new writers noticed) as a good one. That's not helping new writers.

If anyone thinks that's discouraging, so be it. Publishing is not a warm and fuzzy business. It is full of harsh realities, tough situations, and difficult people. Writers need to grow up and smell the coffee. If "POD publishing is not a good idea for new writers" is the worst thing you ever hear, you're lucky.

Again, if YWO stuck to being a critique site and peer writing community, no one here would have a problem. I certainly wouldn't. But they don't, and that's where the problems come up.

- Victoria
 

Old Hack

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Snipping a little bit here, for brevity:

With respect, Old Hack, that's making the assumption that YWO is out to somehow scam new writers. Having been using the site for about a year now, I don't think this is in anyway the case, and if it were the case, there is no way so many industry professionals would be involved with it (unless you're assuming they've also been scammed)..

I hope it's not out to scam new writers. I hope I'm proved wrong, I really do. Still, having seen several publishing/writing professionals get involved with some rather dubious schemes in the (oh god, am I really this old?) 20+ years I've been involved in the publishing business, I think it pays to be wary.

So far ... there has been no hint of scamage (is that a word?) going on. No one has asked for money - other writing sites which are considerably less useful do - no one has asked for anything to be signed, there has been no "forcing" anyone to do anything.

I like "scammage". Great word. And I like that YWO has not yet asked for money. My worry is that by publishing great books in its POD arm it will cheat writers out of money that they could and should have earned.

There's a whole process, which includes being voted into "bestsellers", getting the professional critique etc. You can remove your book any time you want. To be considered for BOTY you also had to do a certain number of crits a month for the last couple of months prior to judging (I don't know how strictly they upheld that, but if you didn't want to be considered, the option was there).

I don't think it's helpful to other writers at all if people leap to negative conclusions based on no evidence and no real knowledge.

It states quite clearly on the YWO FAQ page,

"The completed book of the highest rated opening chapters of the year will be awarded our Book of The Year Publishing Award – the winner’s book will be published by YouWriteOn and available to order by customers as a paperback through booksellers such as Amazon, W.H. Smith, Barnes and Noble and Waterstones."

There's no ambiguity there. No hint that it's possible to say no to this publication, should you be lucky enough to win the prize. It might say so elsewhere on the site but if that's how it works then it's a point against YWO as far as I'm concerned: a writing site which has poorly-worded information on its website is one to avoid, in my book.

All I want is for things to be crystal-clear. That's all. At present it's either at worst scam, or at best inept. If YWO will just clarify how things work on its website then I'll be convinced that it's not a scam.
 

Old Hack

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Sorry, Victoria, we cross-posted. If only I'd read your response. You put it so much more clearly than I did. Thank you.
 

Momento Mori

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Old Hack:
Not "could be published", but "will be published", which doesn't suggest that there's much choice given in the matter. They could mean something different and indeed, had I read through their website further I might have taken away an entirely different opinion. But for a site that is all about writing, I feel quite strongly that if their writing isn't completely clear then that's a bad sign.

Having gone through their registration process to see the terms and conditions of use (and note to YWO - it would be so much easier for people if you published the terms separately so people can review it before starting to register), it's up to individual members whether they enter the Book of the Year competition and under Condition 10:

From October 1st 2006, Best Seller Chart members will be asked to do 3 assignment reviews per month until the Award decision is announced if they wish to be considered for the Book of the Year Award.

Condition 18 sets out clearly that it's a self-publishing operation and what YWO accepts and refutes liability for.

Like I said, I think that their FAQs are confusing and poorly drafted (their Terms and Conditions are slightly better), but it seems that registering with the site doesn't automatically enter you into the competition and even getting on the Bestseller List doesn't oblige you to self-publish as there's a further step, thereby giving a writer the choice of whether to go with it or not. I think that the real worth of the site lies in the possibility of getting a 'proper' critique from an industry professional but would reiterate that in my opinion a 'physical' critique group could give you good feedback as well.

MM
 

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Apparently YouWriteOn winners can publish with who they like. I was reading their Book of the Year info and a couple of their winners were really liked by the big agents like Curtis Brown. Seems their competition and way of getting writers noticed has things going for it. I apologise for giving the wrong opinion as I had my head half in an ‘A’ level law book for my studies and half in a cheese burger. My biggo. Oops.

Has anyone read Stephen King’s On Writing by the way? I’m loving the Stephen King topic here and it sounds a good book.
 
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KellyG

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The Judgement

Roger, it’s okay for you to have an opinion but you seem very uninformed and rather clueless.

I think this is how I’d précis this topic if it were a mixture of my law coursework and a story.

People start off questioning YouWriteOn, a new site. It turns out the people who use it tend to like it, those who don’t start off rightly questioning. All is proved well in the end as editors top agents like Curtis Brown and publishers like Bloomsbury provide free critiques and give it the industry seal of approval.

The YouWriteOn winners get good publicity on the BBC . They can publish with who they like. YouWriteOn lets them do this and agents like Curtis Brown take an interest in winners. Most people agree this is a good thing. There are some congratulations (hurrah!). Apart from the Absolute staff who can’t bring themselves to congratulate anyone even though they share the same writers.

Like any good story there is a cliff hanger about publishing as the Peas in a Pod Squad make a last minute bid to justify themselves .. continues ..
 

KellyG

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The case swings into confusion, Roger fails at informed opinion and divines the future through his cup’s tea leaves again ..

After agreement that YouWriteOn having editors from Curtis Brown and Bloomsbury providing free critiques for writers is generally a good thing, the case then swings into confusion for many readers, including me ..

Site mods and Roger get confused, first Absolute Write is against self publishing, then it is for it with ads that advertise and therefore tacitly endorse self publishing, including suspect operators and non-Google ads about self publishing books. Further confusion for young writers like me whether self publishing is good or bad when Absolute Write staff use self publishing themselves – and they and site writers get a kick out of it in a forum topic (below) well done to them and anyone who’s published and enjoying it I say. Result: Absolute Writers themselves seem great and self publishing seems like fun for many, as do Roger’s confused opinions.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21890

The Verdict: I’d put this to you objectively: If YouWriteOn didn’t have a competition then they wouldn’t have got their winners publicity on the BBC . This is a good thing for new writers - on an international news site on their main BBC entertainment page where I saw it. They now seem to have put this to good use with leading agents like Curtis Brown and publishers to get those they can interest. YouWriteOn members who rated the stories - and those that see such good publicity - may buy the books – published or self published. Whatever happens, the new writers have been given confidence.

For Absolute mods Roger and Victoria to say this isn’t positive indicates a very uninformed and, for whatever reason, cynical attitude to other sites and its own writers that it shares and can’t even congratulate. Even worse, it ignores them in this topic. The mods here reflect very badly on Absolute Write. Absolute writers themselves seem lovely. Its members, including me, deserve better and more informed information.
 
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veinglory

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Excuse me while I twirl the ends of my moustache and attempt once again to tie a wiggling youwriteon to the train tracks.

You need to read the thread again more carefully. No one here is 100% for or 100% against anything--it is a matter of the right tool for the job. That expectation that printing technologies, and people, are shining heroes or evil villains is causing you to see contradictions that are not present.

Also, this is a grassroots community, people get from it what they bring to it.
 
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KellyG

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You dastardly fiend! Wait til my papa hears. The trains are so slow in the UK they'd never hit me anyway. If its YouWriteOn that's okay though as they'd float through the train into cyberspace. I say all this and then when I upload my story on there probably everyone will hate it.
 
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veinglory

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I think some of the confusion comes form trying to work out where YWO fits. Getting agent attention is good, but the goal of agent attention is to get published with a press that has chain store distribution--not YWO's service. Peer critique is a whole different issue.

There is some general congitive dissonance with the chimera of fish, fowl and phoenix.
 

KellyG

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That would have worried me but I think they've cleared that up on their Book Award page. Its says members winners who are getting interest from the big agents and publishers can publish with who they like when I read it.

If any mods want to tie me to the train track for being righteous they'll have to wait until I've finished my Stephen King book.
 
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KellyG

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And can you tell me what the general congitive dissonance is with the chimera of fish, fowl and phoenix you mention? Preferably not before dinner though as it's making me hungry.
 

victoriastrauss

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Kelly, opinions are welcome here. Insults aren't. Please refrain from calling other people uninformed and confused.

It's great that you like and support YWO. You seem to be getting a lot out of the site. Good for you. However, to put it very kindly, you need to learn a bit more about the publishing industry before you dismiss as "uninformed" the opinions of experienced people.

- Victoria
 

Roger J Carlson

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The case swings into confusion, Roger fails at informed opinion and divines the future through his cup’s tea leaves again ..
Hmmmm. That's interesting. The only opinion I've ventured was very early on in this thread when I said I was dubious of YouWriteOn but hoped I was wrong and wished them well.

Since then, I've just tried to clarify some misunderstandings about publishing in general and this board in particular.
 

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Hi Victoria

I may only be 18 but I think some of the opinions here indicate that wisdom about publishing doesn't necessarily come with age.

As for insults I was stating that it was my opinion that Roger was uninformed. I thought I backed this up with sufficient reasons to make this opinion, in a discussion type way. It was done pretty much in the same way that Roger referred to people as 'clueless'. This was his opinion, wrong in my opinion, but there it is.

Thank you for pointing out the board etiquette but I'd define an insult as a statment without basis e.g. 'X person is a rude word'. If the opinion is qualified e.g in the case in point I explain the reasons why I think Roger's opinion is uninformed or his statements are confused, then this I'd clarify as opinion and discussion. I very much hope this clears this up for you.

I'm getting a lot out of fellow Absolute writers as well as they seem very nice. It's just when I happened to read this there seemed to be a lot of mean spirited intentions, my opinion.
 
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FergieC

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I hate conflict (outside fiction!) and I also don't think it's necessary to get personal about this. I've learned tonnes about writing and publishing over the past year. Some from YWO (mainly about my own writing) and some from AW (mainly about scams, POD, self-publishing etc). I don't think this whole us and them thing helps at all. Both sites are really worthwhile and good communities, but in completely different ways. People shouldn't be taking sides as if it's some kind of battle.

The people at AW are very well informed about publishing, and questioning things is absolutely right - there are loads of scams and pitfalls out there that you have to beware of, and if you can learn from people that have been there and done it, that's brilliant. There was a lot I questioned about YWO at the beginning too, but so far the concerns - many of which echo ones made here - have always turned out to be unfounded, which is why it annoys me a bit when people who haven't bothered to ask or find out come on warning people off.

Victoria says:

I think she was pointing out that YWO is presenting a bad idea (POD "availability" as a way to get new writers noticed) as a good one. That's not helping new writers.

If that's all they were doing, I would agree completely. It doesn't seem to be all though. Six new writers have had their names, and the names of their books in the BBC news site, which is way better publicity than most unpublished writers could hope for. If the books are really good, there are also agents and publishing people involved with the site. If the site's intention was to ensure that winners had to publish through a POD deal with them, they surely wouldn't be going to the trouble of showing chapters to agents, and publicising the books prior to publication. What will happen following BOTY remains to be seen, of course.

And, OldHack says:

No hint that it's possible to say no to this publication, should you be lucky enough to win the prize.

How could it not be possible? You only upload the first three chapters, so if you refused to send them the rest of your manuscript, I don't see what they could do, short of sending a delegation round your house with crow-bars (and if you were really worried about that you could register with a false address ;) ).