Are your characters ever too damaged?

Paris Love said:

This thread is interesting to me. I'm writing some very damaged/marginalized characters right now. So long as the characters have some kind of relatable traits, readers will be ok with some pretty horrific behavior (Just look at the popularity of the show "Breaking Bad").

The reader may also be looking for redemption in an otherwise despicable character. Of course, the character needs to die shortly after receiving redemption.

Unlikeable characters doing terrible things aren't enough to hold the interest of the reader for long.

Click to expand...

I don't think a character has to die after being redeemed. It's a commonly used trope, and there's certainly nothing wrong with it, but it isn't a requirement.

I wrote a character who was damaged and made some truly horrible decisions, which drove the story. In fact, the initial feedback I received was that he was too unlikable and I should give him relatable traits in the first scene to make him more likable. I held firm and used subsequent scenes to reveal different aspects of his life and personality. By the catalyst, my writing group understood why my character was the way he was. By his horrible decision, they empathized with him and had quite the discussion on whether or not they would make the same decision in his place.

Anyway, skipping to the end, this character did not die after being redeemed. His penance was to spend the rest of his life trying to undo the damage his decisions caused. It was, according to my writing group, a satisfying ending within the context of the story I told.

I agree, however, that unlikable characters shouldn't do terrible things for the sake of doing terrible things. It's boring because there is no story there. There is just action for action's sake.

gettingby said:

I have a story. That is not the problem. My story is solid. It's the characters in the story that people had an issue with, not the plot or the writing.

Click to expand...

But it sounds like your story is one that gives the readers no hope. That's a story very few will want to read.

That kind of feedback is terribly subjective. So, take it with a grain of salt. Yes, look it over again and think on it. Change it if you really think it needs be. But feedback along the lines of grammar, structure, plot, are more worthy of concern. Another editor may be looking for damaged characters.

HoosierJoe said:

That kind of feedback is terribly subjective. So, take it with a grain of salt. Yes, look it over again and think on it. Change it if you really think it needs be. But feedback along the lines of grammar, structure, plot, are more worthy of concern. Another editor may be looking for damaged characters.

Click to expand...

I don't think damaged characters stop any magazine from buying a story. It's what the OP says about the story itself that can cause rejection. In my story, everyone is in a bad place with little to no hope of things being any different

To me, this is the worrisome part. Anything can sell, if it's done well enough, including a story that ends with no hope. Having said this, if anything is a tougher sell, I don't know what it might be.

The no hope stories I've seen sell are usually gimmick stories, such as The Lottery. A story can have a sad ending, an unhappy ending, but when there's no hope at all, it's very hard to place it.

gettingby said:

I recently got feedback on one of my stories that all of my characters are extremely damaged people. I knew this while I was writing the story, but I had wanted them this way. Do you guys think it is harder for readers to relate to damaged characters? And by damaged kind of low-life people who are stuck living less desirable lives. In my story, everyone is in a bad place with little to no hope of things being any different. How do I make these characters more likable and relatable?

Click to expand...

Situations like this remind me of Neil Gaiman's fifth rule of writing:

Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.

Click to expand...

You have a reader (or more?) reacting badly to the design of your characters. The reader said this was because they were "too damaged", but I doubt that's the heart of the problem.

Your readers are twigging that something's wrong with characterization. I'd trust their gut, if not their explanation, and look into it. Are your characters motivated? Is there something they want? Do they take steps to achieve a goal?

I feel like the only character that's "too damaged" is the one who doesn't feel/want/do anything. As long as they're moving towards something, I think you're in a good way.

CL_Hilbert said:

Situations like this remind me of Neil Gaiman's fifth rule of writing

Click to expand...

A really good writing rule to live by, too.

Brian

I have an editor friend who always feels this way. I have written of true life events and presented it to her as fiction and been told the character is too damaged or unreal to be likeable and if the character is not likeable or at least has redeeming qualities, the reader will turn away. Perhaps this is what the person was trying to say to you.

Keep in mind as well, if the person giving feedback is a happily ever after kind of person, their need to only see the light makes it hard for them to appreciate damaged creatures. After all, Snow White managed to sing after all she went through. Everyone should be like that...yeah, and Tweety Bird smokes crack.

CL_Hilbert said:

I feel like the only character that's "too damaged" is the one who doesn't feel/want/do anything. As long as they're moving towards something, I think you're in a good way.

Click to expand...

Well, I think that's it. From what the OP says, these characters aren't moving towards anything. There is no hope, no advancement, no way out, and they accept this.

caracy said:

Keep in mind as well, if the person giving feedback is a happily ever after kind of person, their need to only see the light makes it hard for them to appreciate damaged creatures. After all, Snow White managed to sing after all she went through. Everyone should be like that...yeah, and Tweety Bird smokes crack.

Click to expand...

Are you saying people shouldn't be like Snow White? Are you saying people shouldn't overcome whatever happens top them, should just sink into depression, and maybe smoke crack?

I know many people are like this, but damned if I want to write about them, or read about them. Many real people are like Snow White, and find a way to overcome anything they face, and at least have hope.

I don't demand happily ever after, but I do demand effort, and I do demand some tiny ray of hope. Without this, people are just damaged, they become useless to themselves, and to everyone around them. Why would I want to write about, or read about, such people?

It isn't the amount of damage that matters, it's the effort the person makes to overcome that damage, and the hope that he may be able to move on and lead a better life.

Some stories are simply dark. Someone can write about a character having abusive parents, drug addictions, bullied in school each day, missing their index finger, have scoliosis and every time they buy a goldfish it dies on day one.

However, I think there should be a "darkness ceiling" somewhere. A character could have a genuinely horrible life, but if it's so bad it isn't believable, it won't resonate with the reader. So many bad things could happen, or the individual could have such a dark past that it could begin to sound humorous and lose the intended effect.

Jamesaritchie said:

Are you saying people shouldn't be like Snow White? Are you saying people shouldn't overcome whatever happens top them, should just sink into depression, and maybe smoke crack?

I know many people are like this, but damned if I want to write about them, or read about them. Many real people are like Snow White, and find a way to overcome anything they face, and at least have hope.

I don't demand happily ever after, but I do demand effort, and I do demand some tiny ray of hope. Without this, people are just damaged, they become useless to themselves, and to everyone around them. Why would I want to write about, or read about, such people?

It isn't the amount of damage that matters, it's the effort the person makes to overcome that damage, and the hope that he may be able to move on and lead a better life.

Click to expand...

No. I'm saying not everyone is Snow White. Not everyone has it in them to find that ray of sunshine. And, to a degree, I agree with what you are saying. Too much hopelessness brings the reader down and should be balanced with other story elements. Nor am I saying something is wrong with you for wanting a ray of sunshine. I am just recognizing everyone is not like that. There are people out there who feel the only "ray of sunshine" really is that some day they will die and it will all be over, and there really are evil people out there who have no redeeming values. And if that mentality exists in reality, someone will relate to the same personalities in fiction. Maybe not you. Maybe not even the majority of readers.

gettingby said:

Now I'm a little confused because the same people who called my characters "too damaged" said they liked my plot. They said the story was surprising and that part was believable. I know I was told that my characters are stuck in bad places with no hope. That was something I was told in workshop, but I'm not sure I believe it. This story is pretty plot heavy, and there is a chance the actions taken by my characters could change their lives. It actually does change their lives, maybe not in the best way for all of them. All of my characters are in some way taking part in a crime. In the story, the crime takes place and leaves readers with a sense what will happen after the crime takes place and the story ends. Are they any better off? They all get what they want in the end, but what some of them want is a little warped.

This is one of the best stories I have ever written. The comments I got in workshop were a little hard to take. I feel like I need to go back and read them again. I want to try and publish this story. But I also don't want to send it too many places before it's ready. (I did sent it to a few. Still waiting).

So I guess my new question is can you still tell a good story with "damaged characters?"

Click to expand...

In your original post you simply said, In my story, everyone is in a bad place with little to no hope of things being any different.

What you're talking about in this post is not the same thing. It sounds like a morality tale now, and this can work. It isn't that the character have no chance for change, no hope, they simply realize that what they thought would make them happy may not do so, and may even make things worse.

I hope you understand that everything in this thread is more hypothetical than anything, just as any comments you get from readers in a workshop may be completely worthless, sometimes even if it's a pro giving the advice.

You have to write your story, not mine, and not that of the others in the workshop. There is no more reason for me, or for them, to be right than you are. This simple fact is that only someone who can write and sell fiction like yours, or who is in position to represent or buy it, really knows enough to tell you how to deal with characters and plot. Take everything else with a bucket of salt.

What you shouldn't do is let anyone else turn your story into mud by too much stirring, or into a story that doesn't say what you want to say.

I hope you're saving the early draft because it may be the one an editor likes best, and the one he'll be most comfortable asking for changes that he likes and wants.

Whatever you do, don't wait too long to submit it somewhere. No matter what you think of the story, or what the workshop critters think of the story, you won't know until an editor or two takes a look at it. I know you want to wait until it's right, but short stories are much like fruit in that if you wait too long, they can rot on the vine, especially when you let too many people come along and squeeze them.

Regarding damaged characters, I think it could work so long as your characters try to overcome what's been done to them by life. Whether they succeed in their efforts or not, as long as they're actually trying to improve their lives and not just sitting around and angsting, you have the makings of a compelling story.

I have to confess when I first read the novel Push by Sapphire, I was kind of put off by it simply because the amount of abuse heaped on the main character. To sum it up, the MC is obese, impoverished, and pregnant with her second child as a result of being raped by her father. She's also beaten by her mother, who hates her for "stealing her man." Later the MC discovers, as a result of being raped by her father, she also is HIV-positive and since the book is set in the 80s before the advent of drug cocktails needed to keep the disease in check...yeah, that means for all her striving, her future is shaky at best. But after an online discussion about the movie based on the book, I found myself looking at the issue in a different way. In the discussion, the commenter (who did some kind of social work) said she didn't feel the main character's abuse was too much, because from her experiences, it's never just one thing wrong with these families. It's never a case of, "Okay the father rapes his child, but her mother is kind and caring and not at all affected by a lifetime of poverty and abuse herself." Usually when something is wrong with a family, the whole thing is wrong, not just one person. Plus the book works in that the main character isn't just a victim; even though we obviously sympathize with her, she does have cringeworthy prejudices against gays and Hispanics. That's an important thing to remember when writing characters that peoples' lives seldom can be summed up in a nice singular moral; people are messy and complicated.

Jamesaritchie said:

Are you saying people shouldn't be like Snow White? Are you saying people shouldn't overcome whatever happens top them, should just sink into depression, and maybe smoke crack?

I know many people are like this, but damned if I want to write about them, or read about them. Many real people are like Snow White, and find a way to overcome anything they face, and at least have hope.

I don't demand happily ever after, but I do demand effort, and I do demand some tiny ray of hope. Without this, people are just damaged, they become useless to themselves, and to everyone around them. Why would I want to write about, or read about, such people?

It isn't the amount of damage that matters, it's the effort the person makes to overcome that damage, and the hope that he may be able to move on and lead a better life.

Click to expand...

Personally, I like to read about characters who have given up. It's different.

Reading about characters who are always trying to overcome obstacles gets boring fast.

IME. YMMV.

gettingby said:

So I guess my new question is can you still tell a good story with "damaged characters?"

Click to expand...

Phillip K. Dick did.