My novel is WAY too long.

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SaveitForaRainyDay

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I know it shouldn't be a problem. People tell me that it's better to write too little than a lot...But it really isn't. At least if you write too little, then you don't have to think of cutting anything out.

Let's just say the first draft of my novel is 985 pages, equaling over 500,000 words. And It isn't even finished yet. Not only that, but I'm already thinking of adding things when I go back to edit.

The problem I always have is I have no idea what to cut out. I've had this problem throughout school and college. I could never stick to a strict wordcount. Only, then I had lecturers to tell me what to delete. Now I don't have anything.

I know already what people are going to comment...'It doesn't matter how many words a novel has', 'there are no restrictions on wordcounts.' But there are, especially if you want to get published. No agent is seriously going to look at a novel of my length. And no reader is seriously going to pick up a book of that length.

So, I guess my questions are:

How long is too long for a novel to be? How long is considered too long for agents to look at? What is the ideal word count for agents? And, most importantly, how do you know what to cut out when editing?

Sorry for asking so many questions. I've just always wanted to know the answers to these but I never knew where to ask before. :)
 

Marian Perera

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I know already what people are going to comment...'It doesn't matter how many words a novel has', 'there are no restrictions on wordcounts.'

I don't think anyone here would say that if you've got commercial publication in mind.

How long is too long for a novel to be? How long is considered too long for agents to look at? What is the ideal word count for agents? And, most importantly, how do you know what to cut out when editing?
How long is too long? Depends on the genre and on the publisher. I know Samhain, for instance, isn't going to consider a romance that's over 130K words, and will only accept > 120K if the author agrees to cut out at least ten thousand words when editing. MG is what, 40K? Epic fantasies from new writers should be safe up to 120K.

But no matter what the genre or the publisher, 500K is huge. Unless you've got something up your sleeve, that's likely to be an insta-reject. I mean, that's more words than The Lord of the Rings.

As for what I cut out during editing, here's just a few targets :

  • filler words like "that", "though" "even", etc.
  • adjectives and adverbs that don't add anything to description, dialogue or action
  • repetition, e.g. if the hero admires the heroine's soft brown eyes three times, maybe that's one time too many and the readers already got it
That alone takes out hundreds of words. I'm sure you could edit your manuscript down too.
 
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BethS

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Let's just say the first draft of my novel is 985 pages, equaling over 500,000 words. And It isn't even finished yet.

I sympathize. Deeply. Believe me. :)

Can you break this into three or more volumes?

I know already what people are going to comment...'It doesn't matter how many words a novel has','there are no restrictions on wordcounts.'

I don't think anyone here is going to say that.

No agent is seriously going to look at a novel of my length.

That's not entirely true. Agents do take on very large books, and very large books do get published. But the kicker is, they have to be exceptional books.

And no reader is seriously going to pick up a book of that length.

Definitely not true. Plenty of readers like fat books, if they're good books.

How long is too long for a novel to be? How long is considered too long for agents to look at? What is the ideal word count for agents? And, most importantly, how do you know what to cut out when editing?

The ideal word count depends on the genre. What an agent is willing to look at depends on that agent.

Ballpark, though...for adult fiction the "ideal" (or at least what is generally acceptable) can run from 100K to 150K.

As to what to cut out...that's a big topic in itself. Maybe if you do a search for threads on revision and editing here, something helpful will turn up. But in general, you cut anything that doesn't advance the story: scenes, characters, words.

Once you have 50 posts, you can post a scene in Share Your Work and folks there can probably find things for you to cut.
 

Marian Perera

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Let's just say the my novel's first draft of my novel is 985 pages, equaling over 500,000 words. And It isn't even it's still unfinished yet. Not only that, Worse, but I'm already thinking of adding things when I go back to during edits.

The My ongoing problem I always have, through school and college, is I have no idea was not knowing what to cut out. I've had this problem throughout school and college.

There. I've already reduced the word count of your paragraphs. :)
 
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polleekin

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It sounds like you're almost finished, so that's good. Once it's done, you can put it aside for a bit so you can come back to it with fresh eyes. You might find there's more to cut than you realized. You might see places where the book can be split, turned into two or three. I've never wrangled a book that huge, and I admit I tend

I think you're right to be thinking about the word count and marketability and all of that, but there are ways to manage big word counts.

Is this epic fantasy? You're in good company if so. Here are some word counts to give you some comparisons: http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/fantasy-book-discussion/word-counts-of-epic-fantasy-novels/ You can see that most of the people on those lists struggled with the same thing. Usually by turning it into multiple books. You know, 6-book trilogies, that sort of thing. ;)
 

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There is a 98.9% chance 500,000 words is too long. Most people around here start fretting at 130,000. The first Harry Potter book was about 80,000, and that is the ideal length in most genres.

Sure, big books get published. But it's a rarity. Getting published already is hard as is. Why make it harder?

First, you probably write fat. Do you use far too many words that could be cut from your sentences? Adverbs and weak adjectives (like 'slimy frog', when everyone knows frogs are slimy) often permeate fat writing. Perhaps you pad up your action scenes, with body parts doing this or that, instead of making the action snappy, and just saying things like, 'He stabbed him.'

If you haven't already, I'd post 1000 words on SYW, and see if fat writing is a problem for you.

All that said, you probably have three or more books in that.

PS. Queen of Swords just nailed it on the head.
 
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MookyMcD

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Normally, I'm a huge fan of trimming. That's my favorite kind of editing, because I often find I can say the same thing in 30% fewer words, which means it's being said a hell of a lot better.

But to get from 500K to 100K, you're going to need to do more than cut surplus. IMO, that's got to be divided into smaller chunks (that then need to be cut in half). If there really aren't distinct chunks that can be taken out and turned into novels, I don't think you have any choice but to start cutting away from the outside, until all you have left is the core.

But man what a core that could be. You would be making a novel out of the absolute best 20% of your story. Think of it as a blessing and a chance for something spectacular, not as a problem.
 

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I'd say keep it to 100K words if you are hoping to find and agent and publisher for it.

My labor of love novel clocked in at 230K words, and when I posted that here people choked on the word count. I started cutting by focusing on two things: the surface plot (four friends on a cross-Africa trip) and the deeper plot (what the main character learns about himself in the process of putting up with three other knuckleheads). Any scene that didn't feed directly in got cut. But that wasn't enough, and being a travel novel I asked myself if they really needed to go to all those places. It broke my heart since I'd done so much research, but perhaps they could start in Nairobi instead of Cairo on their way to Cape Town. I got it down to a tidy 109K. The tale continues, but I won't go into that here, since word count was not the only problem.

Once I got the story cut down, then I could get rid of "thats" and adverbs, then convert dialog tags to action tags ("he said, shaking his head" becomes "he shook his head.")
 

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I know it shouldn't be a problem. People tell me that it's better to write too little than a lot...But it really isn't. At least if you write too little, then you don't have to think of cutting anything out.

Let's just say the first draft of my novel is 985 pages, equaling over 500,000 words. And It isn't even finished yet. Not only that, but I'm already thinking of adding things when I go back to edit.

The problem I always have is I have no idea what to cut out. I've had this problem throughout school and college. I could never stick to a strict wordcount. Only, then I had lecturers to tell me what to delete. Now I don't have anything.

I know already what people are going to comment...'It doesn't matter how many words a novel has', 'there are no restrictions on wordcounts.'

Welcome to AW - hell yes it matters, unless it's your journal. I mean no, there aren't wordcount police, but your chances of getting a half-mil-count work published as an unknown are somewhere between slim and none.

Also, we'll be happy to tell you what to cut. :) There's a Share Your Work section that you can peruse (password is: vista), in which members can post excerpts of their work, by genre generally, for critique and help. You can only post your own work for critique once you have 50 or more posts, but you're free to comment on others' work regardless of post count.

You can see the many threads in which people suggest ways to edit stuff, address problems, etc. I daresay, not having read your work, that there are ways to cut that wordcount significantly.

But there are, especially if you want to get published. No agent is seriously going to look at a novel of my length. And no reader is seriously going to pick up a book of that length.

So, I guess my questions are:

How long is too long for a novel to be? How long is considered too long for agents to look at? What is the ideal word count for agents? And, most importantly, how do you know what to cut out when editing?

Sorry for asking so many questions. I've just always wanted to know the answers to these but I never knew where to ask before. :)

Depends on genre - the one place you can generally go long is fantasy. However, by going long, I mean 120,000 words. You're not even in the realm of splitting that behemoth into two - and if you did, the first would have to stand alone.

Stick around, read around. It's not an uncommon problem, and it can be fixed, as you know if you did it in college.
 

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Most novels fall between 80 - 120k words. So you have enough material for 4 to 6 books. Quentin Tarantino originally intended Kill Bill to be a single movie, but he realized he had enough material for two. Your best option is likely to split the book into two or more parts.

Look at your plot. Is there a climax earlier on? Or is there a point you can tweak into a satisfying climax? If you think about A Song of Ice and Fire as a single story, you can see each book as one part of the larger story. With each providing it's own story arc and conclusion.

Maybe you can look at your material in that light, as opposed to seeing it as a single novel. Where are the arcs? Where are the conclusions within the larger story?
 

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Lots of excellent advice here, so I'm just going to add: look out for subplots that can be removed, characters that can be merged or just wiped out of existence, and long descriptions of scenery that you can chop away.

Also, keep an eye out for what I call "throat clearing". When an author is building a world, they'll usually stop to describe how a magic system works, how a creature looks, or a bit about the politics and character back stories. Look out for these and cut them ruthlessly -- your reader doesn't need those. They can build the world from small details. You needed those details in the early draft, but now you can get rid of them and be more subtle.
 

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One: there's probably a lot you can cut. If you cut everything superfluous and agents and publishes see a tightly written book, they might be more likely to take on the huge word count.

Two: are there natural stopping points? If you could make it into three or four books, you'd stand a better chance of getting published.

For reference, 500,000 words is roughly the same length, I think, as the unabridged version of The Stand by Stephen King. And that was one really, really long book. Even he was asked to leave a whole lot out of the book, and he's Stephen King.
 

job

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500,000 words is four times too long.

Your word count can't be reduced 350,000 words by tightening the prose and leaving out unnecessary words. You have a more basic problem.

When you have finished the first draft, go to your manuscript and

-- pick one protagonist

-- remove every scene that does not contain the protagonist

-- Remove the first three chapters

-- Remove all backstory, all description of place, all epic battles, all scenes that show movement from one place to another, all narration of the fictive world's history or colorful customs.

-- Remove everything that happens before the 'real time' of the story starts.


Work with what you have left.
 

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Chances are that you can tighten a lot. And SYW is where I learned how to tighten my prose, so if you post there with a note about wanting to learn what you could cut, someone may teach you the way they taught me. I cut out 14K just by tightening my prose in my first novel

But with 500K, you're going to need to do more than tighten. Even if you can find a natural place to cut your book that gives a satisfying beginning, middle, and end to the parts you break it into, you're still going to probably end up with 2 books of 250K, which is much too long. Even three books of 166K each are on the fat side. You'll probably have to cut out backstory and/or subplots and/or characters to get the word count down. I feel your pain. I've been there. (I've also been on the skinny side of things, and, lmty, it is not easier to add what seems like fluff to a tightly told story)
 

SaveitForaRainyDay

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I sympathize. Deeply. Believe me. :)

Can you break this into three or more volumes?

I can't because it's a murder mystery. Don't think readers would be too happy about reading two books to find out who the killer is.


That's not entirely true. Agents do take on very large books, and very large books do get published. But the kicker is, they have to be exceptional books.

I don't think my book is exceptional so I guess cutting down is my only option. :(

Definitely not true. Plenty of readers like fat books, if they're good books.

The hard part is getting people to read it in the first place though. They'd probably be put off right away if they got told the book had that many words.

The ideal word count depends on the genre. What an agent is willing to look at depends on that agent.

Ballpark, though...for adult fiction the "ideal" (or at least what is generally acceptable) can run from 100K to 150K.

As to what to cut out...that's a big topic in itself. Maybe if you do a search for threads on revision and editing here, something helpful will turn up. But in general, you cut anything that doesn't advance the story: scenes, characters, words.

Once you have 50 posts, you can post a scene in Share Your Work and folks there can probably find things for you to cut.

Okay thanks. I'll do that :)
 

SaveitForaRainyDay

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I don't think anyone here would say that if you've got commercial publication in mind.

Sorry, I guess I shouldn't have generalized. I haven't been on this site for long and when I posted the same thing on other forums they said that.

How long is too long? Depends on the genre and on the publisher. I know Samhain, for instance, isn't going to consider a romance that's over 130K words, and will only accept > 120K if the author agrees to cut out at least ten thousand words when editing. MG is what, 40K? Epic fantasies from new writers should be safe up to 120K.

But no matter what the genre or the publisher, 500K is huge. Unless you've got something up your sleeve, that's likely to be an insta-reject. I mean, that's more words than The Lord of the Rings.

As for what I cut out during editing, here's just a few targets :

  • filler words like "that", "though" "even", etc.
  • adjectives and adverbs that don't add anything to description, dialogue or action
  • repetition, e.g. if the hero admires the heroine's soft brown eyes three times, maybe that's one time too many and the readers already got it
That alone takes out hundreds of words. I'm sure you could edit your manuscript down too.

Thank you. I know I actually do a lot of those things :)

There. I've already reduced the word count of your paragraphs. :)

Thank you. That actually helps :)

It sounds like you're almost finished, so that's good. Once it's done, you can put it aside for a bit so you can come back to it with fresh eyes. You might find there's more to cut than you realized. You might see places where the book can be split, turned into two or three. I've never wrangled a book that huge, and I admit I tend

I think you're right to be thinking about the word count and marketability and all of that, but there are ways to manage big word counts.

Is this epic fantasy? You're in good company if so. Here are some word counts to give you some comparisons: http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/fantasy-book-discussion/word-counts-of-epic-fantasy-novels/ You can see that most of the people on those lists struggled with the same thing. Usually by turning it into multiple books. You know, 6-book trilogies, that sort of thing. ;)

No, unfortunately it isn't a fantasy. I wish it was because then I'd be able to have more words :(

Thank you for the website :)

There is a 98.9% chance 500,000 words is too long. Most people around here start fretting at 130,000. The first Harry Potter book was about 80,000, and that is the ideal length in most genres.

Sure, big books get published. But it's a rarity. Getting published already is hard as is. Why make it harder?

I didn't purposefully try to make it harder. I just didn't look at the word count very much when I was writing. I know I probably should have now.

First, you probably write fat. Do you use far too many words that could be cut from your sentences? Adverbs and weak adjectives (like 'slimy frog', when everyone knows frogs are slimy) often permeate fat writing. Perhaps you pad up your action scenes, with body parts doing this or that, instead of making the action snappy, and just saying things like, 'He stabbed him.'

If you haven't already, I'd post 1000 words on SYW, and see if fat writing is a problem for you.

All that said, you probably have three or more books in that.

PS. Queen of Swords just nailed it on the head.

Yeah, I probably do a lot of those things. When I edit, I'll definitely look out for them. I can't post yet. I don't have 50 posts, but I will when I do. :)
 

Marian Perera

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I would do this but it's a murder mystery. I don't think readers would be too happy about waiting for another book to find out who the killer is. :(

If the book is this long, there must be subplots you can cut out. If there's more than one murder, maybe you could take out/combine victims?
 

Marian Perera

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Sorry, I guess I shouldn't have generalized. I haven't been on this site for long and when I posted the same thing on other forums they said that.

No worries. :) Some forums may have more of an emphasis on writing to suit yourself, but I find people on this board tend to be savvy about commercial publication, which means we'll spot any potential problems in a manuscript.
 

SaveitForaRainyDay

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Normally, I'm a huge fan of trimming. That's my favorite kind of editing, because I often find I can say the same thing in 30% fewer words, which means it's being said a hell of a lot better.

I wish I liked it. I actually hate it because it isn't easy for me to see what to cut out.

But to get from 500K to 100K, you're going to need to do more than cut surplus. IMO, that's got to be divided into smaller chunks (that then need to be cut in half). If there really aren't distinct chunks that can be taken out and turned into novels, I don't think you have any choice but to start cutting away from the outside, until all you have left is the core.

But man what a core that could be. You would be making a novel out of the absolute best 20% of your story. Think of it as a blessing and a chance for something spectacular, not as a problem.

Thank you, but I honestly don't have a clue what the best 20% is. In my head, everything is important, but I guess I'll have to cut some of the important things out if I ever want a chance of being published.

I'd say keep it to 100K words if you are hoping to find and agent and publisher for it.

My labor of love novel clocked in at 230K words, and when I posted that here people choked on the word count. I started cutting by focusing on two things: the surface plot (four friends on a cross-Africa trip) and the deeper plot (what the main character learns about himself in the process of putting up with three other knuckleheads). Any scene that didn't feed directly in got cut. But that wasn't enough, and being a travel novel I asked myself if they really needed to go to all those places. It broke my heart since I'd done so much research, but perhaps they could start in Nairobi instead of Cairo on their way to Cape Town. I got it down to a tidy 109K. The tale continues, but I won't go into that here, since word count was not the only problem.

Once I got the story cut down, then I could get rid of "thats" and adverbs, then convert dialog tags to action tags ("he said, shaking his head" becomes "he shook his head.")

I think that's the same with me. I've worked so hard on some of the areas, but in my heart I know that they'll have to be cut. Good advice about the dialogue tags. I tend to do that a lot.

Welcome to AW - hell yes it matters, unless it's your journal. I mean no, there aren't wordcount police, but your chances of getting a half-mil-count work published as an unknown are somewhere between slim and none.

Also, we'll be happy to tell you what to cut. :) There's a Share Your Work section that you can peruse (password is: vista), in which members can post excerpts of their work, by genre generally, for critique and help. You can only post your own work for critique once you have 50 or more posts, but you're free to comment on others' work regardless of post count.

You can see the many threads in which people suggest ways to edit stuff, address problems, etc. I daresay, not having read your work, that there are ways to cut that wordcount significantly.

Depends on genre - the one place you can generally go long is fantasy. However, by going long, I mean 120,000 words. You're not even in the realm of splitting that behemoth into two - and if you did, the first would have to stand alone.

Stick around, read around. It's not an uncommon problem, and it can be fixed, as you know if you did it in college.

Thank you. It was different in college though, because I had help doing it. Now I have to use my own judgement and I don't know if that's very good.

Most novels fall between 80 - 120k words. So you have enough material for 4 to 6 books. Quentin Tarantino originally intended Kill Bill to be a single movie, but he realized he had enough material for two. Your best option is likely to split the book into two or more parts.

Look at your plot. Is there a climax earlier on? Or is there a point you can tweak into a satisfying climax? If you think about A Song of Ice and Fire as a single story, you can see each book as one part of the larger story. With each providing it's own story arc and conclusion.

Maybe you can look at your material in that light, as opposed to seeing it as a single novel. Where are the arcs? Where are the conclusions within the larger story?

I wish I could split into two books, but it's a murder mystery, so it would be kind of hard to stretch it on for two books. It would be so much easier if I'd written in another genre :(

Lots of excellent advice here, so I'm just going to add: look out for subplots that can be removed, characters that can be merged or just wiped out of existence, and long descriptions of scenery that you can chop away.

Also, keep an eye out for what I call "throat clearing". When an author is building a world, they'll usually stop to describe how a magic system works, how a creature looks, or a bit about the politics and character back stories. Look out for these and cut them ruthlessly -- your reader doesn't need those. They can build the world from small details. You needed those details in the early draft, but now you can get rid of them and be more subtle.

I've actually already thought of a sub-plot that can be removed, so I guess that's a step in the right direction :). I don't know if my description of scenery is that long. Actually, I always worry that it's not that detailed.

One: there's probably a lot you can cut. If you cut everything superfluous and agents and publishes see a tightly written book, they might be more likely to take on the huge word count.

Two: are there natural stopping points? If you could make it into three or four books, you'd stand a better chance of getting published.

For reference, 500,000 words is roughly the same length, I think, as the unabridged version of The Stand by Stephen King. And that was one really, really long book. Even he was asked to leave a whole lot out of the book, and he's Stephen King.

Thanks. I'll probably have a better idea of what I want to cut when I read it over, and hopefully that will be soon.

500,000 words is four times too long.

Your word count can't be reduced 350,000 words by tightening the prose and leaving out unnecessary words. You have a more basic problem.

When you have finished the first draft, go to your manuscript and

-- pick one protagonist

-- remove every scene that does not contain the protagonist

-- Remove the first three chapters

-- Remove all backstory, all description of place, all epic battles, all scenes that show movement from one place to another, all narration of the fictive world's history or colorful customs.

-- Remove everything that happens before the 'real time' of the story starts.


Work with what you have left.

Thank you so much, that's really great advice :)

Chances are that you can tighten a lot. And SYW is where I learned how to tighten my prose, so if you post there with a note about wanting to learn what you could cut, someone may teach you the way they taught me. I cut out 14K just by tightening my prose in my first novel

But with 500K, you're going to need to do more than tighten. Even if you can find a natural place to cut your book that gives a satisfying beginning, middle, and end to the parts you break it into, you're still going to probably end up with 2 books of 250K, which is much too long. Even three books of 166K each are on the fat side. You'll probably have to cut out backstory and/or subplots and/or characters to get the word count down. I feel your pain. I've been there. (I've also been on the skinny side of things, and, lmty, it is not easier to add what seems like fluff to a tightly told story)

Ah...Thanks. I'm just dreading having to cut out characters since I love all of them :(. But I know I'll have to if I ever want a chance of being published. I'm just sick of continuing the book now that I know I'm just adding more words, and it's long enough as it is.
 

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Maybe your last 100,000 words will be your 'true' book? I don't know. It'll be okay, in the end, some way or another. All of us here have hit problems like this, in the past. :Hug2:
 

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I would say you need to consider throwing the first 5-10 chapters to some readers who can give you their opinion. If they all say it's taking too long to get to the action, right there you know that you indeed do have a lot of cutting to do. If they all seem to like it, maybe your problem lies in the middle of the story where it gets bogged down. Once you find the problem, you can start fixing it.
 

ReflectedGray

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Hey,

I always overwrite too. I usually sail past my word count by at least 30 percent then go back and cut. At first I freaked out, but then I realized that shortening can actually be a VERY positive experience. I know it seems hard to cut your hard work, but it something almost every writer has to deal with.

For me, cutting has always made my novel way better. My first step is to read through it looking for long scenes that do not move the story forward. Even if they are well written, you are trying to tell one story, not many. Those pieces are the first to go.

Then, I read it again and take out paragraphs / sentences that are awkward and unnecessary. I do not believe that every paragraph in your 1000 page novel is crucial. This is the time to be very real with yourself about what is actually necessary.

Form there I consider where I am at. If it is still too long, then I do a final read through and start taking out stuff that maybe DOES move the story forward, but not necessarily in a super meaningful way. Maybe I consider tweaking plot elements to flow a little differently.

At this point ive taken out way more pages than I ever though possible. The end result is a novel full of only the GREAT stuff. You are actually lucky, because some writers are forced to leave in material that is only good. ;)

Just my thoughts! Happy cutting.

P.S: Obviously these reads should also be used to edit / make other changes. I'm not suggesting you spend years exclusively cutting. I don't know about everyone else, but I read the whole thing through a few times anyway. I sort of think its necessary to actually make it polished. Maybe that's just me though.
 
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