Sentences flowing together

I analyze sentences, too, but not as I'm reading the story. Do you really want readers who do this with your writing? How often do you want readers to come out of the story to analyze a sentence?

Later, after the story is read, sure, but if a reader stops in the middle of my story to analyze my sentences, to say, wow, that's a beautiful sentence, or, ugg, that sentence is ugly, I've failed in what I'm trying to do.

Though maybe when other writers do it, it doesn't count.

But I darned sure do not want ordinary readers to stop in the middle of my story to analyze, or admire, an individual sentence.

angeliz2k said:

You might be captured by some lovely passages (which seems to be more of a literary fiction thing),

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Not really. I tend to find them in the work of most good writers. And I certainly wasn't reading literary fiction when I was a child.

James, during the time I've spent here, I've found you and I tend to agree much more than disagree, but this is one of those instances where we see things from a completely different perspective.

So, from my perspective...

Jamesaritchie said:

Anything that pulls a reader out of the story is bad. The moment a reader stops living the story, and starts admiring a sentence, I think you have a failed writer.

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Rather, you have a writer who has managed to touch me on a whole other level, a writer who has given me the gift of a wonderful sentence or a particularly lyrical passage, which I can stop and appreciate for its own merits, as well for how it elevates the story. I suppose you might call this the reader's equivalent of stopping to smell the roses. My reading experience is enhanced. I look for writers who have a gift for language, along with the ability to tell a good story.

Unless, maybe, that reader is a writer who worries more about his or her own writing than about the story at hand.

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That makes no sense to me. I don't see a connection between appreciating good writing and worrying about one's own writing.

But I darned sure do not want ordinary readers to stop in the middle of my story to analyze, or admire, an individual sentence.

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Maybe you don't, but that's not under your control. At least, not for readers like me.

I’m another reader who has noticed and appreciated both good and bad writing, ever since I can remember. Even as a child, part of the reason I loved to read was beautiful language.

angeliz2k said:

I don't think the idea is that the writing per se disappears--it's that the writer's part disappears from it, as in you aren't suddenly thinking about the fact that someone is trying to get your attention. You might be captured by some lovely passages (which seems to be more of a literary fiction thing), but those lovely passages can still fit seamlessly with what's around them so that they become part of the story instead of jumping out at you. This can go too far, of course, where you have pretty passages that do little more than scream, "Look at me! Look how wonderful this sentence is!"

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For most of my life, I did not have the option to pick out my own reading material, so I read everything I could get my hands on. A lot of it was literary fiction, but from what I’ve found, good writing is good writing, regardless of the genre is gets categorized as.

Jamesaritchie said:

No, these things work well only if the writing is invisible. Metaphors, similes, and a turn of phrase work well because of the content and the meaning, not because we see teh writing. If you see the writing, these things fail. It's what they have to say that makes us gasp.

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Of course it means the story suffers. Anything that pulls a reader out of the story is bad. The moment a reader stops living the story, and starts admiring a sentence, I think you have a failed writer.

Unless, maybe, that reader is a writer who worries more about his or her own writing than about the story at hand.

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I analyze sentences, too, but not as I'm reading the story. Do you really want readers who do this with your writing? How often do you want readers to come out of the story to analyze a sentence?

Later, after the story is read, sure, but if a reader stops in the middle of my story to analyze my sentences, to say, wow, that's a beautiful sentence, or, ugg, that sentence is ugly, I've failed in what I'm trying to do.

Though maybe when other writers do it, it doesn't count.

But I darned sure do not want ordinary readers to stop in the middle of my story to analyze, or admire, an individual sentence.

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To be honest, it feels really arrogant for anyone to assume that just because they read a certain way, everyone does. I happen to know a lot of readers, who are not writers, but who still notice and appreciate good writing. This is not a failure on the writer’s part, and in no way detracts from the story; rather, it enhances the reading enjoyment for those of us who appreciate more than just a good story.

Papaya said:

I’m another reader who has noticed and appreciated both good and bad writing, ever since I can remember. Even as a child, part of the reason I loved to read was beautiful language.

For most of my life, I did not have the option to pick out my own reading material, so I read everything I could get my hands on. A lot of it was literary fiction, but from what I’ve found, good writing is good writing, regardless of the genre is gets categorized as.

To be honest, it feels really arrogant for anyone to assume that just because they read a certain way, everyone does. I happen to know a lot of readers, who are not writers, but who still notice and appreciate good writing. This is not a failure on the writer’s part, and in no way detracts from the story; rather, it enhances the reading enjoyment for those of us who appreciate more than just a good story.

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I feel the thread went downhill when arrogance came up.

We all read because we enjoy the literature. IMO it's a failure on the writer's part when the 'beautiful' writing detracts from the story. There are many examples of a writer failing to connect with the broader audience because of the literary narcissism. Beautiful passages turn into aimless prattle, the self-absorbed writer loses connection to his own story.
The point of disconnect might be different for different readers. Some tolerate less than the others - they lose interest and stop reading while the others will finish the story. But even for those who finish, the reading experience is irreversibly damaged.
There is a price to pay for overwriting a story IMO. That price is readership.

BethS said:

Not really. I tend to find them in the work of most good writers. And I certainly wasn't reading literary fiction when I was a child.

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...Sorry if my wording wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that noticeably lovely passages are seen only or even mostly in literary fiction. Far from it. I write and read genre fiction. I meant that--to great effect--literary fiction is often very focused on the beauty of the language itself. I didn't mean what I said to carry any value judgment (good or bad) whatsoever.

I'm not saying an artful passage can't be appreciated by readers like yourself; I'm saying that sometimes the authorial presence becomes too apparent in the writing, and the reader is wrenched out of the story. That's a different experience from a reader savoring a passage. It's the difference between a writer doing it well and doing it poorly.

Papaya said:

For most of my life, I did not have the option to pick out my own reading material, so I read everything I could get my hands on. A lot of it was literary fiction, but from what I’ve found, good writing is good writing, regardless of the genre is gets categorized as.

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Again, I apologize if my wording wasn't clear, but I did not say in any way that any genre was better than any other. I was saying that there's a difference between good writing being savored and an author who's presence is all-too-apparent and distracting to the reader (ie, they're trying too hard).

ETA: Basically what chekurtab said.

angeliz2k said:

...
I'm not saying an artful passage can't be appreciated by readers like yourself; I'm saying that sometimes the authorial presence becomes too apparent in the writing, and the reader is wrenched out of the story.

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For sure. Yes. Anything can be overdone.

Chekurtab said:

I feel the thread went downhill when arrogance came up.

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Okay. That’s not where I felt the thread went downhill, but that’s kind of the point, isn’t it? We are all different, and assuming one's point of view holds true for everyone, is rather arrogant IMO.

Chekurtab said:

We all read because we enjoy the literature. IMO it's a failure on the writer's part when the 'beautiful' writing detracts from the story. There are many examples of a writer failing to connect with the broader audience because of the literary narcissism. Beautiful passages turn into aimless prattle, the self-absorbed writer loses connection to his own story.
The point of disconnect might be different for different readers. Some tolerate less than the others - they lose interest and stop reading while the others will finish the story. But even for those who finish, the reading experience is irreversibly damaged.
There is a price to pay for overwriting a story IMO. That price is readership.

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angeliz2k said:

Again, I apologize if my wording wasn't clear, but I did not say in any way that any genre was better than any other. I was saying that there's a difference between good writing being savored and an author who's presence is all-too-apparent and distracting to the reader (ie, they're trying too hard).

ETA: Basically what chekurtab said.

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I agree, something can be overwritten, the same way a song can be over-sung. A good writer knows which of their darlings should be cut and which ones are okay to leave behind.

What I don’t agree with are the blanket statements that were made in this thread. And the tone used by some of the posters, while delivering those alternative opinions, was, well, you know...