HUGE Problem...Help me, Agents!

PeteDutcher · Aug 5, 2014

I just finished the final draft of my fantasy epic novel today. It took me a year to write it.

I imported all the chapters into my Microsoft Word and got my word count...164,599 words!

I thought it might be around 140,000 words which was pushing it, but over 164,000 words??? I tried to reduce the number of words. I did in some places. But then I added words to tighten up the story.

I write in sort of a Terry Brooks style. I wrote this book with the intent of having a complete epic story in one book. I don't think splitting it in two will work.

I know that few novelists debut with such large novels. Brooks did. Goodkind and Martin did. But it's a different day.

So...do I just approach publishers or should I strive to find an agent? I know finding an agent to handle such a big novel will be tough.

I do not want to self publish this one. Went that route.

Osulagh · Aug 5, 2014

Have you thought about cutting it down to size? I know, it can seem impossible, but it can be done I'm sure.

quicklime · Aug 5, 2014

the problem with length is agents have trouble selling longer works to publishers, so you aren't going to side-step that by going to the same publishers yourself I am afraid....

mayqueen · Aug 5, 2014

First, get yourself a couple of good beta readers to make sure you even need every single one of those 165k words.

Then, polish the hell out of your MS and your query. A strong query and opening pages can sometimes mitigate a high word count.

After that, you won't know until you query.

Finally, accept that after all that, this may not be your debut. You might have to write something else to prove an agent/publisher can get behind you for 165k.

Siri Kirpal · Aug 5, 2014

Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Get a good beta reader who can either help you reduce the words or point out where a good break point would be.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

popgun62 · Aug 5, 2014

PeteDutcher said:
I just finished the final draft of my fantasy epic novel today. It took me a year to write it.

I imported all the chapters into my Microsoft Word and got my word count...164,599 words!

I thought it might be around 140,000 words which was pushing it, but over 164,000 words??? I tried to reduce the number of words. I did in some places. But then I added words to tighten up the story.

I write in sort of a Terry Brooks style. I wrote this book with the intent of having a complete epic story in one book. I don't think splitting it in two will work.

I know that few novelists debut with such large novels. Brooks did. Goodkind and Martin did. But it's a different day.

So...do I just approach publishers or should I strive to find an agent? I know finding an agent to handle such a big novel will be tough.

I do not want to self publish this one. Went that route.

Series are very big right now. Have you thought about splitting it into two books? A bit of re-writing could make it work and 80K would be about right for most agents/publishers.

cornflake · Aug 5, 2014

PeteDutcher said:
I just finished the final draft of my fantasy epic novel today. It took me a year to write it.

I imported all the chapters into my Microsoft Word and got my word count...164,599 words!

I thought it might be around 140,000 words which was pushing it, but over 164,000 words??? I tried to reduce the number of words. I did in some places. But then I added words to tighten up the story.

I write in sort of a Terry Brooks style. I wrote this book with the intent of having a complete epic story in one book. I don't think splitting it in two will work.

I know that few novelists debut with such large novels. Brooks did. Goodkind and Martin did. But it's a different day.

So...do I just approach publishers or should I strive to find an agent? I know finding an agent to handle such a big novel will be tough.

I do not want to self publish this one. Went that route.

You likely edit it so it's saleable.

It's possible you've got a tight, well-paced, 165,000-word book, but it's unlikely. Have you put an excerpt up in SYW? I'd start there, then move to betas. Even if it isn't overwritten in any way, you still may have to lose some of it to make it saleable.

Karen Junker · Aug 5, 2014

There ARE modern epic fantasy authors who sell books over the average 120K word count. But they are rare -- I know Django Wexler sold his first book at over 200K but his agent pitched it to editors without mentioning word count. His editor actually made him cut it to 193K.

Still.

I have lots of experience in helping people cut their books. I may be able to look at a chapter and give you some ideas (and more if you think I can help you). PM me.

Or, take a look at a book called The 10% Solution by Ken Rand -- you can order it on the internet -- I know many people who have read it and used it to cut their work in ways you wouldn't think of.

Old Hack · Aug 6, 2014

A book which might be difficult to sell is going to need an agent more than a book which is probably going to be easier to sell.

Put some of it up in Share Your Work so that you can get feedback on how clearly and tightly it's written, because chances are you'll be able to cut it back dramatically--even if you're doubtful that you can. If your work really is tight and clean and beautiful then posting it to SYW will confirm that, and calm some of your worries.

If it is well-written at this length, and it has a good story arc and plotline, then you should have confidence in your work. Query away. Just don't mention the word-count at this stage.

InkStainedWench · Aug 6, 2014

Old Hack, is it acceptable to query without mentioning word count? Seems to me an agent would think, "Uh-oh; must be too long/too short."

Barbara R. · Aug 6, 2014

To be frank: I'd bet dollars to donuts that your book doesn't need to be nearly so long. There could be a lot of fat to be trimmed---chronic repetition, unnecessary backstory, scenes and dialogue that go on too long---or it could be a problem of too many subplots. If the first is the problem, posting a section on this forum will most likely reveal it. If the latter, then those unneeded subplots need to be surgically removed. Fresh eyes could help.

Osulagh · Aug 6, 2014

InkStainedWench said:
Old Hack, is it acceptable to query without mentioning word count? Seems to me an agent would think, "Uh-oh; must be too long/too short."

I too would like to know this. While my word count doesn't match Pete's and I'm making all the necessary cuts and shortenings (to the point that I worry that I'm going too fast within a 150k Epic Fantasy) and I'm sure my writing and opening pages are strong enough to get a partial, I just don't want to be auto-rejected because of numbers.

Old Hack · Aug 6, 2014

First: listen to Barbara R. I have almost always been able to shorten the books I've edited, often by a significant degree. Get your book as polished and tight as you can.

Once you've done that, if it is still long but your many beta-readers and critiquers agree that it's tightly written and compelling, then yep. You can query without mentioning your word-count. This goes against standard advice: but I have seen it done successfully. Include the first five pages with your query if you can (so, if it's asked for; and if it's not specified that you shouldn't), so that you can grab the agent's attention with your brilliant writing.

Or you can query, say you know it's too long, but justify it somehow. If your query is brilliant and your writing even better, you can get away with it. But it is a risk, and one to be avoided if possible.

Aggy B. · Aug 6, 2014

PeteDutcher said:
I know that few novelists debut with such large novels. Brooks did. Goodkind and Martin did. But it's a different day.

Just had to point out that if you're referring to G.R.R. Martin, he did NOT debut with a mammoth novel. He'd been writing for years (including earlier novels) before ASOFAI was conceived.

Filigree · Aug 6, 2014

Please don't be coy and query agents without mentioning word count. They really don't like that. Be honest. Be ready to trim or split your mms at the agent's urging.

Sage · Aug 6, 2014

What do you mean by "final draft"? Has it been to betas (I'm sure that at least one of them would have put it in Word and mentioned the word count)? Betas are excellent for pointing out scenes that you actually don't need.

Having cut 15K out of the novel I'm working on at an editor's request, I did so by replacing an entire section with a tighter version of itself, combining scenes, cutting scenes I never thought before I could cut but had realized I could, and then when I had 3-5K left to go, simply going through on a line-by-line basis and cutting every extraneous word or rewriting sentences or paragraphs to say the same things but more succinctly (And then I read through it aloud to make sure the voice was retained). Mine was at 85K, cut to 70K, and had already been significantly tightened before. So I'm sure with almost double that starting word count, you have even more that you can cut.

Becca C. · Aug 6, 2014

Sage said:
What do you mean by "final draft"? Has it been to betas (I'm sure that at least one of them would have put it in Word and mentioned the word count)? Betas are excellent for pointing out scenes that you actually don't need.

Having cut 15K out of the novel I'm working on at an editor's request, I did so by replacing an entire section with a tighter version of itself, combining scenes, cutting scenes I never thought before I could cut but had realized I could, and then when I had 3-5K left to go, simply going through on a line-by-line basis and cutting every extraneous word or rewriting sentences or paragraphs to say the same things but more succinctly (And then I read through it aloud to make sure the voice was retained). Mine was at 85K, cut to 70K, and had already been significantly tightened before. So I'm sure with almost double that starting word count, you have even more that you can cut.

Seconding this. I'm in the process of doing the same thing for my agent. The MS started at 80k when I first wrote it, 64k when I was querying, and I've since taken it down to 56k. All through either cutting scenes that were unnecessary or boring, combining scenes that basically accomplished the same thing, and rewriting for succinctness. I'm sure it's possible for you to trim at least 20-30k this way.

Quickbread · Aug 6, 2014

Becca C. said:
Seconding this. I'm in the process of doing the same thing for my agent. The MS started at 80k when I first wrote it, 64k when I was querying, and I've since taken it down to 56k. All through either cutting scenes that were unnecessary or boring, combining scenes that basically accomplished the same thing, and rewriting for succinctness. I'm sure it's possible for you to trim at least 20-30k this way.

And thirding this. I was going to suggest going through the whole thing and listing every scene, with a summary of what its overall purpose is for the story. It's likely you'll find overlap, and each scene needs to do something unique and specific to advance the story. Combining and eliminating weak scenes will make what's left much stronger.

Barbara R. · Aug 7, 2014

Quickbread said:
And thirding this. I was going to suggest going through the whole thing and listing every scene, with a summary of what its overall purpose is for the story. It's likely you'll find overlap, and each scene needs to do something unique and specific to advance the story. Combining and eliminating weak scenes will make what's left much stronger.

Good idea. That's something I do while writing, though it can be useful in editing too. If a scene doesn't achieve multiple goals, it's unneccessary. So any scene whose sole purpose is to convey backstory, for example, should be cut. Ditto any scenes that exist only to establish characterization or get the character from point A to point B. Whatever is useful in those scenes can be woven into other scenes that have more raison d'etre.

Sage · Aug 7, 2014

Barbara R. said:
If a scene doesn't achieve multiple goals, it's unneccessary. So any scene whose sole purpose is to convey backstory, for example, should be cut. Ditto any scenes that exist only to establish characterization or get the character from point A to point B. Whatever is useful in those scenes can be woven into other scenes that have more raison d'etre.

This is a good way to look at it, although I'm not sure it's an absolute. But I know that when I write, I don't put in any scenes that don't seem necessary so saying to cut all scenes that don't achieve a goal is unhelpful to me. However, I found when I focused on cutting, that some scenes that seemed necessary and achieved a goal, could still be cut, that some other scene could achieve that goal (whether incorporating the goal or by mentioning the now-off-screen scene). There were scenes that I swore up and down that I needed, two versions ago. I didn't even like some of them. And then I realized how I could combine ideas, dialogue, etc. into other scenes and get rid of those.

Barbara R. · Aug 7, 2014

Sage said:
This is a good way to look at it, although I'm not sure it's an absolute. But I know that when I write, I don't put in any scenes that don't seem necessary so saying to cut all scenes that don't achieve a goal is unhelpful to me.

Actually my advice is to cut scenes that don't achieve multiple goals. One's not enough. Scenes that don't have multiple purposes slow the book down and clog its arteries.

But of course you're right: Nothing is an absolute in writing. Whatever works, works.

Sage · Aug 7, 2014

Barbara R. said:
Actually my advice is to cut scenes that don't achieve multiple goals. One's not enough. Scenes that don't have multiple purposes slow the book down and clog its arteries.

Yes, that's why I was agreeing with you

Namatu · Aug 7, 2014

Barbara R. said:
If a scene doesn't achieve multiple goals, it's unneccessary. So any scene whose sole purpose is to convey backstory, for example, should be cut. Ditto any scenes that exist only to establish characterization or get the character from point A to point B. Whatever is useful in those scenes can be woven into other scenes that have more raison d'etre.

Excellent advice. As Sage and you yourself noted, it's not a 100% rule, but it's an excellent guide to gauge the effectiveness of your scenes when you're trying to tighten your prose.

To the OP, in addition to the other good suggestions you've received here, I'll ask if you've let the novel sit for awhile. Coming back to it with truly fresh eyes allows you to see where more condensing can occur.

PeteDutcher · Aug 7, 2014

cornflake said:
You likely edit it so it's saleable.

It's possible you've got a tight, well-paced, 165,000-word book, but it's unlikely. Have you put an excerpt up in SYW? I'd start there, then move to betas. Even if it isn't overwritten in any way, you still may have to lose some of it to make it saleable.

How big an excerpt could I post? I was thinking the first 3-4 chapters maybe?

PeteDutcher · Aug 7, 2014

Karen Junker said:
There ARE modern epic fantasy authors who sell books over the average 120K word count. But they are rare -- I know Django Wexler sold his first book at over 200K but his agent pitched it to editors without mentioning word count. His editor actually made him cut it to 193K.

Still.

I have lots of experience in helping people cut their books. I may be able to look at a chapter and give you some ideas (and more if you think I can help you). PM me.

Or, take a look at a book called The 10% Solution by Ken Rand -- you can order it on the internet -- I know many people who have read it and used it to cut their work in ways you wouldn't think of.

I trimmed it down by 3,500 words so far...but I might take you up on that if the offer still stands?

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