Who/whom

scully931

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...when Jane finds evidence her parents, WHO(M) her grandfather never spoke of, may be living....

I admit to never in my life actually using the word 'whom' in a sentence. So, even looking at rules on a couple of grammar pages didn't make me confident enough to put it in a query. Thanks for any help!

(And the new query is going out today, so I will stop bugging you all for awhile.) :e2flowers
 

Dawnstorm

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Both are fine. "Who" is more common, these days, but "whom" is more formal. Also, if you decide to put the preposition before the pronoun, you need "whom". So any of these variants is fine:

1. who her grandfather never spoke of

2. whom her grandfather never spoke of

3. of whom her grandfather never spoke

There is a sliding scale of formality from 1. to 3. (with 3. being the most formal).
 

scully931

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ACK!

If it matters, 'of' is not the end of the sentence.


...whom her grandfather never spoke of, may still be alive and living in Oz.

(Well, it's not 'Oz' but you get the idea.)

Can you end a phrase with a prep?
 

Maryn

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...when Jane finds evidence her parents, WHO(M) her grandfather never spoke of, may be living....
Hold up here. There's a definite right and wrong answer, and usages when it's A-okay by me to use the word that's wrong.

The who/whom word is the direct object of the preposition of, even though the phrase is turned ass-backward. ("...her parents, of whom her grandfather never spoke..."). As a direct object, whom is correct, whether it's the direct object of a preposition, a clause, or a sentence.

That said, we can't ignore tone and context. If the narrator is casual and informal, s/he might opt for the mistake, or not even know it's a mistake, which is certainly suggested by the backward use of the phrase, rendering it less formal in the first place.

So while there's one correct usage in terms of grammar, there are other acceptable usages in terms of what you're writing.

Maryn, who'd probably rephrase
 

dpaterso

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Huh, I thought it was simpler than that -- when the person or persons being addressed are unknown, use "whom" (as in the ubiqituous greeting, "To whom it may concern...")

Presumably Jane's grandfather knows her parents, therefore,

...when Jane finds evidence her parents, who her grandfather never spoke of, may be living....

would seem the right form. That's how I'd write it anyways, and why. I'm not claiming it's gospel.

-Derek
 

Dawnstorm

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Why? Because ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which you will not put?

My guess is that qwerty would say it's not idiomatic. It does have something to do with the dangling preposition:

1. "whom" = objective form // "who" is subjective form

2. "of whom": "whom" = object of preposition

3. "who(m)....of" = "who(m)" is still object of preposition

If the "who" follows the preposition you need the "whom". But something happens when you separate the preposition from its object, as in 3. The "m" becomes optional - just as regular "who(m)" ("who(m) I've never seen").

So for many people a dangling preposition might be a hint at informality. "Who" instead of "whom" could also be seen as a sign informality. So using "whom" in combination with a dangling preposition might be seen - intuitively - as a mix of registers. If enough people feel that way, #2 might well be not idiomatic: people just don't say it.

I was aware of this when posting, and considered addressing this, but then decided that #2 was acceptable enough. I have no idea how the variants are distributed across the globe, though, so I could simply have been wrong.
 

Barber

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Wow, I can't believe there's argument behind this.

It's #3.

Period.

If you don't know how whom / who is used, you should really study grammar a bit further. And while you're at it, you should look into how to use prepositions. It's not that you can't EVER use them at the end of a clause (not sentence), but you need to know where to place them. Sometimes they need to stay with the verb, for example.

Anyway, I don't mean this post in as bitchy a tone as it sounds. I only hope it helps, I guess :)
 

dawinsor

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Theoretically, "whom" is the correct form because it's the object of the preposition "of," no matter where they are. However, "whom" is gradually fading from the language. If you use it incorrectly, it will stick out like crazy. So my rule of thumb is "When in doubt, use 'who.'"

If you can recast the sentence, I'd do it.
 

Anna Magdalena

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As others have said it's pretty straightforward. It's nothing to do with whether the person is known or unknown.


Who is used as when it refers to the subject of the sentence:

The man who gave the girl the flowers was handsome.

The girl who took the flowers kissed the man on the cheek.

When following a preposition or is the object of the sentence it must be whom, as in:

The girl to whom the man gave the flowers blushed.

The girl from whom he took the trophy was smiling.

The girl in whom he placed his trust let him down.

The girl whom the man kissed couldn't stop smiling.

(Although, as others also have said, it is being used less and replaced by who
 

ComicBent

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Correct = whom

As several people have observed, the correct form is *whom*. It is, in fact, the object of the preposition *of*, which happens to come at the end of the clause. That construction is all right, even in formal writing (though it can be even more formal).

Now, if you are presenting the dialogue of a character, you will always want to use the language that the character would use. Most people, in ordinary speech, would use *who* in the example (though it sounds awful to me!). But in any kind of expository writing, as in an article on some sociological topic, you would want to use the correct form. At least, you should ... but I see all kinds of abominable uses even in formal writing these days. This happens mainly, I think, because people no longer learn correct English in American schools.

*Whom* may be fading, but only because the United States is now a nation of poorly educated people who just do not care about anything except buying the latest electronic gadget that lets them send messages like "what r u doin" and "c u soon" and so forth. Heaven forbid that anyone might actually study grammar and rhetoric and the history of the English language and try to master its nuances.

For the record, *who* and *whom* are almost always used wrong in the media in the US in any kind of semi-complex situation. Usually when the idiots on TV try to get it right, they will use *whom* when, in fact, it should have been *who*. For example, they might try something like this:

*The ticket will go to whomever gets here first.*

They think about the word *to* being a preposition, and they have some vague memory of objects of prepositions, and they decide it must be *whomever* because it is an object. However, the entire clause *whoever gets here first* is the object, not the pronoun alone. It has to be *who(ever)* because that is the form for a subject. *Whoever* is the subject of *gets* in the clause.

Hey, if you think the rant was bad, you ought to see the stuff that I cut out! :)
 

ideagirl

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Huh, I thought it was simpler than that -- when the person or persons being addressed are unknown, use "whom" (as in the ubiqituous greeting, "To whom it may concern...")

No, it's even simpler than that. Here's the trick: if you were talking about a he, she or they in this sentence (instead of a "who"), what would you say: he or him? She or her? They or them?

If you would say he or she or they, use "who."
If you would say him or her or them, use "whom."

"To whom" is correct because you would say "to her/to him." In other words, the pronoun is a direct object rather than a subject. But if you don't want to get into the grammatical technicalities, just ask: he/she or him/her? There's your answer. So in this sentence, the grandparents never spoke of... they?! No, "them." So it's "whom."
 

maestrowork

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Technically speaking, it should be "of whom her grandfather never spoke" but EEEK! that's a horrible way of doing the sentence because it's unnatural.

Either: "whom her grandfather never spoke of" or rewrite it so you don't have that dangling preposition:


...when Jane finds evidence her parents, whom her grandfather never mentioned, may be living....
 

Ms Hollands

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Two pedantic things (but hey, it's for a query, so it's important):

1. ...when Jane finds evidence THAT her...

2. If she's found evidence that her parents might still be alive, isn't it a given that her grandfather never mentioned it while she was growing up? Is his lack of discussion about her parents important enough to interrupt such an important discovery? Maybe it is: I don't know your story, but I thought it was worth raising.
 

Silver King

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...*Whom* may be fading, but only because the United States is now a nation of poorly educated people who just do not care about anything except buying the latest electronic gadget that lets them send messages like "what r u doin" and "c u soon" and so forth...
Besides that asinine statement, your post is well-informed and helpful.
 

backslashbaby

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Agreed on "whom" as the objective form of the word.

But this:
1. ...when Jane finds evidence THAT her...
?

I agree entirely. What's the rule today on this kind of "that"? My professors would say that it is not optional. I gather that in informal writing it is now?
 

MMcQuown

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A Bent for Grammar

To the point of the original inquiry, I agree that 'whom' should be used as the object of the preposition, but that characterisation might dictate otherwise. To Bent's comments, I emphatically agree! I think many on these boards are exceptions who have risen above the level of general education, but it has been my observation that the level of education has declined seriously over the last fifty years. I didn't get to college until after military service. When I did, I saw college seniors unable to do work that was expected of me in high school, and the fact that the City University of New York had to offer Remedial English to their seniors says volumes. I lay a great deal of blame at the door of the Modern Language Association for constantly endorsing any counterculture or subculture usage as 'fresh' or 'innovative.' And texting has certainly done nothing to improve the situation, not to mention public safety. (Has anyone seen the Welsh-created PSA about the dangers of driving while texting, which has been shown on YouTube?)
 

gothicangel

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Zombie thread! :D

I'm currently writing my undergrad dissertation and the dreaded who/whom question arose:

"However, Robertson presents the readers with a Scotland who’s histories are discontinuous, fragmented and episodic.'

Is this correct, or as it is an academic senetence, should it be 'whom'?

Thanks.
 

backslashbaby

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It is actually 'whose' :) That's the possessive form.