A or An for Eulerian paths?

slhuang

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I reference a/an Eulerian path in my next book.

The name is from the mathematician Euler, which is pronounced (roughly) "Oiler," but is often mispronounced "Yuler." This I know.

But I feel like I tend to hear people say "Yu-LER-ian" for Eulerian instead of "Oi-LER-ean." Although maybe it's a case of my ear eliding the sounds because the emphasis is on the second syllable? I DON'T KNOW. The few pronunciations I found online supported "Yu-LER-ian," but I find myself distrustful because so many people mispronounce the name Euler.

The Internet, by the way, is entirely inconsistent on which (a or an) people use. For instance, the Wikipedia article linked above uses both "a" and "an" just in the introduction. When I Google, "a eulerian" (with quotes) gets 39.5k results and "an eulerian" (with quotes) gets 200k results, which I don't consider ridiculously clear given the pronunciation issues, especially as the Internet itself seems to give me the "Yulerian" pronunciation.

It is possible that nobody will remotely care which I use for this, but I thought I'd ask here in case anyone has any insights, and because, you know, nerd. :D Also I'd be very interested if anybody has a strong reaction to one or the other as looking wrong.
 

onesecondglance

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I'm pretty sure "a" or "an" depends largely on the initial vowel sound rather than any strict rules... so I'd have the characters argue about it.

If they're using the "standard" (wrong) pronounciation, "a Yulerian path" makes more sense to the ear, so that's what those characters would say; whereas the other pronounciation would sound better as "an Oileran path".

It's a chance for you to show character as well as educate on the proper pronounciation - win win!
 

slhuang

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That's a fantastic point, except this is in my POV character's internal monologue, so she'd just use whichever she thinks is right and not have any opposing viewpoints. ;)

I'll file that idea away for other pronunciation instances, though!
 

Marlys

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That's a fantastic point, except this is in my POV character's internal monologue, so she'd just use whichever she thinks is right and not have any opposing viewpoints. ;)

So which does SHE think is right? Did she learn the term from someone who pronounced it "Oiler," like in class from a professor? Or has she only read it in print, so might assume "Yuler" from the spelling?

Just a note: I certainly wonder about pronunciation in my own internal monologues, so I wouldn't find it odd if your character did.
 

slhuang

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So which does SHE think is right? Did she learn the term from someone who pronounced it "Oiler," like in class from a professor? Or has she only read it in print, so might assume "Yuler" from the spelling?

Just a note: I certainly wonder about pronunciation in my own internal monologues, so I wouldn't find it odd if your character did.

Oh, I should have specified -- I want her to think whichever is actually correct is right. ;) The character has mathematical superpowers, and while this doesn't necessarily translate to knowing pronunciations, it feels internally consistent to me in the "magic" of the world that she Magically Correctly Knows all math ever. ;)

And ha, I like the idea of wondering in the internal monologue, though it wouldn't quite work here for pacing reasons, even if I didn't apply the "magical correctness" worldbuilding. :) But -- *takes more notes for future books*
 
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amergina

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I'd go with an Eulerian, given the proper pronunciation.

(See, I'd try to pronounce it something like E-you-ler-e-an, 'cause I'm horrible like that.)
 

Marlys

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For what it's worth, the OED gives the pronunciation of Euler as:

oy - l - ə - (r)
IPA Sounds like
ɔɪ oy as in boy, voice (main stress)
l l as in leap, hill
ə ə as in another (schwa)
(r) (r) as in her

but the pronunciation of Eulerian as:

yoo - l - i - er - i - ə - n
IPA Sounds like
juː yoo as in dubious, barbecue
l l as in leap, hill (main stress)
ɪ i as in pit, hill
ər er as in stirring, runner
ɪ i as in pit, hill
ə ə as in another (schwa)
n n as in nine
 

slhuang

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I'd go with an Eulerian, given the proper pronunciation.

Oh, I'm totally down with using the proper pronunciation, I'm just not sure if the proper pronunciation of "Euler" transfers to "Eulerian" in the same way (and from Marlys's post, it seems it doesn't, which -- ARGH LANGUAGE HAHAHAHA). Sorry, I should have stated that more clearly. ;)

(See, I'd try to pronounce it something like E-you-ler-e-an, 'cause I'm horrible like that.)
:ROFL:

For what it's worth, the OED gives the pronunciation of Euler as:

Ooooooo OED!! Thank you very much!!! (One thing I miss SO MUCH about having a college campus IP is I no longer get free OED access. Sadness!)

This supports the other pronunciations I found online, which I didn't trust. ;) Very good to know. I'll probably go with this because OED. :D

Flip a coin.

:roll:

Thanks so much for the help, everyone! And for indulging my intense grammarian perfectionism. :tongue
 

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One thing I miss SO MUCH about having a college campus IP is I no longer get free OED access. Sadness!

My public library offers online OED access to anyone with a valid library card. You might check to see if that's an option where you live.
 

slhuang

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My public library offers online OED access to anyone with a valid library card. You might check to see if that's an option where you live.

Whaaaaat I shall! Thank you!
 

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For what it's worth, I'm native German and I would use

- a Eulerian ... ("yo-LER-ean") if I spoke in front of a mostly non-German audience

- an Eularian ... ("IO-ler-ean") if I spoke in fromt of a mostly German audience

for the purpose of better understanding.
 

onesecondglance

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Oh, I should have specified -- I want her to think whichever is actually correct is right. ;) The character has mathematical superpowers, and while this doesn't necessarily translate to knowing pronunciations, it feels internally consistent to me in the "magic" of the world that she Magically Correctly Knows all math ever. ;)

And ha, I like the idea of wondering in the internal monologue, though it wouldn't quite work here for pacing reasons, even if I didn't apply the "magical correctness" worldbuilding. :) But -- *takes more notes for future books*

You could get around this by having the phrase come up earlier in dialogue, so that this mention in interior monologue is a call-back.

"It's a perfect Eulerian curve."
"Oy-what?"
"Eulerian. Euler, the German mathematician. Tell me you've heard of Euler."
"You mean You-ler. You as in eulogy."
"No, Euler. As in Oil ram my fist down your throat if you don't shut the hell up."

... [later]

It formed a perfect Eulerian curve. Oy, oy, oy, she thought.

:)
 

slhuang

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For what it's worth, I'm native German and I would use

A native German opinion! Awesome! Thank you so much. :D

You could get around this by having the phrase come up earlier in dialogue, so that this mention in interior monologue is a call-back.



... [later]



:)

You're just determined to make my book more awesome than it actually is, aren't you? :tongue
 

blacbird

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For what it's worth, I'm native German and I would use

- a Eulerian ... ("yo-LER-ean") if I spoke in front of a mostly non-German audience

- an Eularian ... ("IO-ler-ean") if I spoke in fromt of a mostly German audience

.

"Euler" is pronounced "oyler" by every American I know who is even remotely familiar with mathematics. He's one of the most famed mathematicians of all time.

No different from the ubiquitous pronunciation of "Freud".

The famous German name Americans have the biggest problem with is "Goethe". It usually comes out as something approximating "Gertie".

You folks just say everything different.

caw
 

Zanralotta

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"Euler" is pronounced "oyler" by every American I know who is even remotely familiar with mathematics. He's one of the most famed mathematicians of all time.

No different from the ubiquitous pronunciation of "Freud".

The famous German name Americans have the biggest problem with is "Goethe". It usually comes out as something approximating "Gertie".

You folks just say everything different.

caw
Ha! Compared to English, German spelling is alomst consistent...

Ok, we might only use 7 vowel to represent our 15 odd vowel-sounds, but in the end, one letter like "a e i o u ö ü ä" tends to represent no more that max. 3 sounds!

(It's the glottal stops that seem to give non-native German speakers the most trouble. Please pronounce "verreist" - "on vacation" and "vereist" - "covered with ice" in such a way that everyone can hear the difference... :D)

P.S. I had a friend who lived in New Jersey for a year when he participated in a German-American exchange program. Whenever he was asked to teach an American how to pronounce a German word, he said "Streichholzschächtelchen" ("little match box"). It was glorious... and mean... and glorious...
 

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If it's pronounced like it starts with the letter Y (Yoolarian), then it's "a." The a/an rule is based on the sound of the following letter, not what it actually is.

For instance, the word "her" starts with an h, not "a" h, because we pronounce h "aych."
 

slhuang

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If it's pronounced like it starts with the letter Y (Yoolarian), then it's "a." The a/an rule is based on the sound of the following letter, not what it actually is.

For instance, the word "her" starts with an h, not "a" h, because we pronounce h "aych."

Oh, yes, I know! The question was whether "Eulerian" was pronounced starting with "OY" or "YOO" and thus whether it would be "an" or "a." ;) I think I've got it sorted, as I'll probably go with the OED pronunciation Marlys provided. :)

Thanks all! :D
 

Roxxsmom

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Yoolerian sounds right to me, but I've been known to be wrong with my pronunciations. I've occasionally discovered I've been pronouncing a word wrong for years, usually one of those words I read and write but rarely ever hear anyone say.
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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I never 'eard of that bloke til today. I'd have assumed it was 'yoo-lair-ee-un' coz... 'eu' should pronounced as in ancient Greek :D

But then the 'oy' does make sense once you know he was a Deutsch dude ;)

"Euler" is pronounced "oyler" by every American I know who is even remotely familiar with mathematics. He's one of the most famed mathematicians of all time.

Yah. See, I had no clue. :Shrug: Not a big maths fan. Euw, mafffffsssss.... (sheuddup, Pensul, you love it) :poke:

The famous German name Americans have the biggest problem with is "Goethe". It usually comes out as something approximating "Gertie".

Well, I just had to go listen to this now, and frankly... I've been pronouncing it wrong all these years. It's not the 'oe' or the final 'e' that gives me trouble - my German vowels are excellent :D

No, it was that pesky 'th' in the middle... bloody thing. Why is the 'h' there if you don't even say it??? Hmph.


(It's the glottal stops that seem to give non-native German speakers the most trouble. Please pronounce "verreist" - "on vacation" and "vereist" - "covered with ice" in such a way that everyone can hear the difference... :D)

*whimper* (the silent 'h' in that is for emergency purposes....

...

...

... sheuddup Pensul :D)


P.S. I had a friend who lived in New Jersey for a year when he participated in a German-American exchange program. Whenever he was asked to teach an American how to pronounce a German word, he said "Streichholzschächtelchen" ("little match box"). It was glorious... and mean... and glorious...

Oh god that's just sadistic. Brings to mind another fantastic German word though - schadenfreude! (oooh, there's that 'oy' sound again :D)
 
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I never 'eard of that bloke til today. I'd have assumed it was 'yoo-lair-ee-un' coz... 'eu' should pronounced as in ancient Greek :D

But then the 'oy' does make sense once you know he was a Deutsch dude ;)



Yah. See, I had no clue. :Shrug: Not a big maths fan. Euw, mafffffsssss.... (sheuddup, Pensul, you love it) :poke:



Well, I just had to go listen to this now, and frankly... I've been pronouncing it wrong all these years. It's not the 'oe' or the final 'e' that gives me trouble - my German vowels are excellent :D

No, it was that pesky 'th' in the middle... bloody thing. Why is the 'h' there if you don't even say it??? Hmph.




*whimper* (the silent 'h' in that is for emergency purposes....

...

...

... sheuddup Pensul :D)




Oh god that's just sadistic. Brings to mind another fantastic German word though - schadenfreude! (oooh, there's that 'oy' sound again :D)


Oddly enough, within a few days of this thread starting I was talking to someone who mentioned Euler, I don't recall the reason why the subject came up, but I found it interesting that twice in the same week I ran into mentions of someone I hadn't heard of in decades. That what happens when one speaks of math and smart Swiss.
 

WriteMinded

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Yeah, well, they should have spelled it some other way. Who's responsible for that, anyway?