Same sex attraction & locker rooms

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veinglory

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There are certainly many cultures where mixed sex naked bathing occurs and is considered no big deal. I think there is probably more of a problem with universally sexualising the opposite sex gaze and sexualizing nakedness than a lesbian seeing my bits and pieces. And we are now as a culture in the process of sexualising all appearances of children and depictions thereof (clothed and unclothed). Maybe it is time we started to roll that back rather than requiring ever-increasing protection from being looked at leading to ever-more conditioned discomfort with same? Don't get me wrong, I feel that modesty discomfort thing, but I suspect I would be better of if I was inculterated so that I didn't, or to a lesser degree.
 
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Ravioli

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There are certainly many cultures where mixed sex naked bathing occurs and is considered no big deal. I think there is probably more of a problem with universally sexualising the opposite sex gaze and sexualizing nakedness than a lesbian seeing my bits and pieces. And we are now as a culture in the process of sexualising all appearances of children and depictions thereof (clothed and unclothed). Maybe it is time we started to roll that back rather than requiring ever-increasing protection from being looked at leading to ever-more conditioned discomfort with same?

OH MY GOD AMEN AMEN AMEN!!
 

Roxxsmom

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Personal shyness is a different issue than "what if a gay person is staring at my hot bod!" and I do agree with you, there, Roxxsmom.

I agree. Sorry if it sounded like I was conflating the two. But I think our accepted norm of forcing kids and adults to be naked or partially naked together with members of the same gender is something we should perhaps look at, if we're truly committed to embracing diversity (cultural as well as differences in personality). Then the issue would go away for the homophobic members of our society. Not that I particularly want to coddle them, as they seriously need to get over themselves.

I'd also think that stigmatizing or forbidding openly gay and lesbian and bisexual people from using locker rooms with members of their own gender would simply encourage more people to remain closeted. The "problem," as homophobic people see it (I know some dislike the use of the word homophobic to describe antipathy towards LGBT people, but 'unreasoning fear' does seem to apply here) would not go away. It would just be driven underground, and then they could whip themselves into a real frenzy of paranoia. Is that guy over there checking them out? Is he trying too hard not to check them out? Is he gay? Are they gay for noticing him not noticing? How can they know? Horrors!

And yes, mixed sex naked bathing is normal in many cultures (I believe they even did this in medieval Europe in some places, at least), including ones that have pretty strict about sexuality. The idea that being naked with someone is inherently sexual is indeed a culture-defined trait. But even within a given culture, I'd hazard that there will always be variation in how comfortable someone is with this.

Some are even uncomfortable about undressing in front of their pets. Does that signify anything? Surely not !

So yeah. I also believe the topic rather unnecessary. Why cater to people's paranoia and/or "egotism?"

One of my dogs is a kelpie, and trust me, you've never been stared at until you've been stared at by a kelpie. He's got the kind of "eye" that makes mothers step nervously between him and their children (though he actually loves kids and is very gentle). He embarrasses me when I'm changing.
 
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DancingMaenid

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I'd also think that stigmatizing or forbidding openly gay and lesbian and bisexual people from using locker rooms with members of their own gender would simply encourage more people to remain closeted.

It also seems wildly impractical to me. If locker rooms were segregated by sexual orientation, where would we queer people go, exactly? Lesbians couldn't change with straight men, because those men may find them attractive. But if they changed together, then they might be attracted to each other. There's no way to avoid the possibility of changing around people who find your gender attractive, unless you avoid public locker rooms, period.
 

Ravioli

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It also seems wildly impractical to me. If locker rooms were segregated by sexual orientation, where would we queer people go, exactly? Lesbians couldn't change with straight men, because those men may find them attractive. But if they changed together, then they might be attracted to each other. There's no way to avoid the possibility of changing around people who find your gender attractive, unless you avoid public locker rooms, period.
Just put a rainbow patch on the LGBT's chest for easy identification so those potentially uncomfortable can run for the hills.


Ugh, we spend our whole lives hating our own bodies and judging those of others...
 

KTC

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I don't get the automatic sexualization of gays... But that's because I'm not an overly sexual person, I suppose. Just because I'm Gay, I'm gonna want all the men in the locker room? I'm gonna hit on them and ogle them? To me this amounts to a non-issue. I'm not there for sex... I'm changing or what have you. I'm in a committed relationship. I'm not looking at other men. I'm changing. Why do I have to be sexually inappropriate in the locker room just because my sexual preference is men?
 

DancingMaenid

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I don't get the automatic sexualization of gays... But that's because I'm not an overly sexual person, I suppose. Just because I'm Gay, I'm gonna want all the men in the locker room? I'm gonna hit on them and ogle them? To me this amounts to a non-issue. I'm not there for sex... I'm changing or what have you. I'm in a committed relationship. I'm not looking at other men. I'm changing. Why do I have to be sexually inappropriate in the locker room just because my sexual preference is men?

Yeah. I mean, I do consider myself fairly sexual, but I'm not attracted to most people I see. It's pretty rare for me to see someone in public and think they're really hot. And even if I did, I wouldn't ogle them in a setting where they were getting undressed or doing something private, because that strikes me as disrespectful. It's not really a huge conflict.
 

Deepthought

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I agree that a lot of decent people wouldn't stare, but at the same time, a lot of non-decent people would. Not everybody is respectful; this is far from a perfect world, and assuming that people of the opposite gender would be respectful of that is, to me, not realistic. We might feel safe in everyday life, but why? Because of the law? After Hurricane Katrina hit, crime rates went very high, including rape, because law enforcement wasn't there. These were 'normal' people committing crimes (the Philip Zimbardo prison experiment illustrates this). If people are not sexualizing each other simply due to setting, then it is simply a matter of intent, and people could sexualize or not. Going to school, or to the store, etc. But going to, say, a strip club, all else being equal, yields something different. Not because of dress or anything else. Something simply in the mind. Therefore, one could simply sexualize nudity if they wanted to. After all, the primary reason why one is sexually attracted to another is not where they are (setting) or whatever it may be, but what they are (male, female, etc) and the differences manifest physically; therefore, that is the primary indicator.

I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of crime, and got into a few fights here and there, so maybe my worldview affects my judgement. I don't automatically give trust to people by default. That is probably why I think there is an issue (although I do agree that people with nontraditional orientations can use the same facilities, for different reasons.) But the way I see it, the responses show best case scenarios, and not the average ones; it is simply reliant on the trust of others. I consider many women fairly attractive (taking out old ladies), but I think that might be because I try to avoid the media sexualization in order to prevent it from affecting my notion of the standards of what being attractive is. On an extreme end, pornography makes people have certain standards and have a narrowly defined range, so doing the opposite would yield the opposite effect. I have to say that I'm often surprised to hear someone call a girl ugly when I really didn't think so.
 

mccardey

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I consider many women fairly attractive (taking out old ladies).

Oh, my lord... That really is a terrible disappointment.

:granny:

ETA: I'm guessing I won't be seeing you in my locker room any time soon?
 
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kuwisdelu

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What's your point?

There is, observably, no problem.

Why do you think there is one?
 

Deepthought

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"Privacy" isn't a point.

Public restrooms remain as private as they've ever been.

If one doesn't want to be seen, that's what stalls are for.

But that's the whole point, people in the bathroom assume that the guy next to him has no interest in him. That is because of concrete, biological differences rooted in fact, rather than more subjective reasons.
 

mccardey

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But that's the whole point, people in the bathroom assume that the guy next to him has no interest in him. That is because of concrete, biological differences rooted in fact, rather than more subjective reasons.

So...?

Are you worried that people will objectify people? Because - there are women you can talk to about that.
 

Ravioli

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I don't get the automatic sexualization of gays... But that's because I'm not an overly sexual person, I suppose. Just because I'm Gay, I'm gonna want all the men in the locker room? I'm gonna hit on them and ogle them? To me this amounts to a non-issue. I'm not there for sex... I'm changing or what have you. I'm in a committed relationship. I'm not looking at other men. I'm changing. Why do I have to be sexually inappropriate in the locker room just because my sexual preference is men?

I am oversexed to the point I get bananas to eat and make eye contact on purpose in front of individuals of interest. And even I can look at naked people and their parts and NOT sexualize them. Maybe it's because I've had nude classes in my teens, but man, people need to stop viewing life as a threatening porno.
 

Ravioli

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"Privacy" isn't a point.

Public restrooms remain as private as they've ever been.

If one doesn't want to be seen, that's what stalls are for.

Here we go: I hate being seen or naked with, or peeing with, ANYONE, including cis females like myself. If you want to protect my privacy, excluding men isn't enough. You need to exclude everyone down to the last toddler.
 

Deepthought

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I thought that people wore clothes in part, for privacy or modesty or some such thing. If clothes didn't make any difference in that regard, then going to school, shopping, nonsexual places etc. wearing nothing would not make a big deal. But doing that in an average neighborhood here in the US, I guarantee a big deal would be made (and the police called) by most people. If there was no difference, then no one would bat an eye walking down the street that way.
 

mccardey

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I thought that people wore clothes in part, for privacy or modesty or some such thing. If clothes didn't make any difference in that regard, then going to school, shopping, nonsexual places etc. wearing nothing would not make a big deal. But doing that in an average neighborhood here in the US, I guarantee a big deal would be made (and the police called) by most people. If there was no difference, then no one would bat an eye walking down the street that way.

In many cultures and times that are not The US Today, people walked around naked, or partly naked, or showing bits of themselves that might not be seen on Main Street America today.

It was not a big deal.
 

Underdawg47

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I tend to wonder about the idea of the bell curve, you know the one that has purely gay people on one side and totally straight people on the other and that huge middle section of bisexuality in the middle. Because our culture has told us that homosexuality is bad, I wonder if those who consider themselves totally straight may be a bit frightened that they won't be able to fight their bisexual urges if they knew a gay person might happen to be looking at them. It seems that a heterosexual who is confident in his sexuality should not be worried if a gay man looks at him because he is open about what he likes and not trying to hide anything.

I mean as a gay man, I certainly don't try to pursue someone who is not into me. I might think they are handsome and hot, but if they aren't into me, I just don't see the point and I certainly would not want to risk a confrontation unless I knew for certain he was interested. Most gay men I know are gentlemen about the subject and have learned to hide their feelings. I know a lot of straight men who don't show any respect towards women on the street by whistling or giving cat calls. They are probably the ones who couldn't stand to have that happen to them though, especially from another man.
 

kuwisdelu

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But that's the whole point, people in the bathroom assume that the guy next to him has no interest in him. That is because of concrete, biological differences rooted in fact, rather than more subjective reasons.

I've never assumed that.

Mostly because I'm so pretty I assume even straight guys are checking me out.

I thought that people wore clothes in part, for privacy or modesty or some such thing. If clothes didn't make any difference in that regard, then going to school, shopping, nonsexual places etc. wearing nothing would not make a big deal. But doing that in an average neighborhood here in the US, I guarantee a big deal would be made (and the police called) by most people. If there was no difference, then no one would bat an eye walking down the street that way.

As explained earlier, whether it's a big deal or not is entirely cultural.

In some cultures, it isn't a big deal.
 

Deepthought

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I've never assumed that.

Mostly because I'm so pretty I assume even straight guys are checking me out.



As explained earlier, whether it's a big deal or not is entirely cultural.

In some cultures, it isn't a big deal.

Yes I know but in those cases, it is then reliant on setting, which shifts more weight upon intent of the individual. How, then, to tell whether something is sexual or not? This is a big issue in the feminist movement; some say they can wear whatever they want and it is not sexual at all. The other camp says that is not actually the case and is sexual. Cultural differences may be there, but within cultures, there can be, and inevitably are, big disagreements. Some will take it sexually and others won't. Insisting one way or the other way won't change that.
 

Lillith1991

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I thought that people wore clothes in part, for privacy or modesty or some such thing. If clothes didn't make any difference in that regard, then going to school, shopping, nonsexual places etc. wearing nothing would not make a big deal. But doing that in an average neighborhood here in the US, I guarantee a big deal would be made (and the police called) by most people. If there was no difference, then no one would bat an eye walking down the street that way.

Can you possibly come up with more of a strawman if you tried. People wear clothing mainly to protect from the elements, or that is at least a huge reason. Another reason is that our culture since we're speaking of the US specifically it seems, has a social taboo against being nude in public. I'm not buying this whole privacy and decency crap you're spouting, if you will pardon my harshness.

As a queer woman, I notice attractive women. But that doesn't mean I'm going to hit on them, whether in a locker room or on the street. I've got better things to do than that, and so do my male counterparts. I'm polite, if I think a woman is aesthetically pleasing. I keep it to myself unless we're talking and it comes up. There's a time and a place for things and most people gay, straight, or bi know that and try to hold themselves to that level of politness. On top of that, you can't exactly tell someone is gay by looking at them unless they're wraped in a rainbow flag at a pride parade or something. And frankly, who cares? I don't care if someone slips a look at me, long as they're polite about it.
 

kuwisdelu

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Yes I know but in those cases, it is then reliant on setting, which shifts more weight upon intent of the individual. How, then, to tell whether something is sexual or not? This is a big issue in the feminist movement; some say they can wear whatever they want and it is not sexual at all. The other camp says that is not actually the case and is sexual. Cultural differences may be there, but within cultures, there can be, and inevitably are, big disagreements. Some will take it sexually and others won't. Insisting one way or the other way won't change that.

Sexuality has always been a subjective thing and there's nothing wrong with that.

It also has nothing whatsoever to do with privacy.
 

mccardey

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This is a big issue in the feminist movement; some say they can wear whatever they want and it is not sexual at all. The other camp says that is not actually the case and is sexual.

ETA: No.

I'm just going to wait until this gets clarified...
 

Deepthought

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Sexuality has always been a subjective thing and there's nothing wrong with that.

It also has nothing whatsoever to do with privacy.

Privacy have to do with it if people sexualize something or not. People are physically different, and that is why people are attracted to different genders. If they covered up, then certain aspects cannot be sexualized.

Can you possibly come up with more of a strawman if you tried. People wear clothing mainly to protect from the elements, or that is at least a huge reason. Another reason is that our culture since we're speaking of the US specifically it seems, has a social taboo against being nude in public. I'm not buying this whole privacy and decency crap you're spouting, if you will pardon my harshness.

As a queer woman, I notice attractive women. But that doesn't mean I'm going to hit on them, whether in a locker room or on the street. I've got better things to do than that, and so do my male counterparts. I'm polite, if I think a woman is aesthetically pleasing. I keep it to myself unless we're talking and it comes up. There's a time and a place for things and most people gay, straight, or bi know that and try to hold themselves to that level of politness. On top of that, you can't exactly tell someone is gay by looking at them unless they're wraped in a rainbow flag at a pride parade or something. And frankly, who cares? I don't care if someone slips a look at me, long as they're polite about it.

Bold: Which is why I said in part.
As for the US against nudity in public, it is also much of the rest of the world that has a taboo against public nudity. Harshness is fine, I don't mind at all. I'm not trying to disparage, just trying to keep an open mind. I will admit, I don't understand this nonsexualized public nudity, which is why I am just saying this stuff, so I can get it.

I know that most nontraditional oriented people would not do any sort of sexual thing to others. My dentist is the most gay guy I know, and is the epitome of those stereotypes. And he's a nice guy, he doesn't do that. But that isn't my point; all these things are anecdotal. Just because other people don't do anything, doesn't mean everyone will. A lot of straight people harass members of the opposite sex, primarily men against women. It might just be my background; I am pretty defensive, I don't even go to the pool when the rest of my family does. But that's anecdotal too. My point is that if it is possible to sexualize because of a person's intent (nude culture) compared to failure to execute intent (traditional culture prevents it to a point, as clothing prevents a person from being seen, therefore sexualized) then a disparity exists.
 
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