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[Publisher] Black Rose Writing (Reagan Rothe)

Mr. RBI

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I have also signed with Black Rose. I have already had two non-fiction books published by reputable publishers who have paid me advances. With Black Rose I am selling a novel. I am receiving no advance, but I am paying nothing, and the royalties seem more than fair. I, too, am skeptical about distribution and promotion. They have made it clear that I am a big part of the promotion process, and I am willing to be that part. They are a young company, and I hope to help make them successful. There is no clause in my contract to buy my books, although I know that I will need some for my own personal promotions. This appears a lot better than vanity publishing, and it seems to be a lot better than nothing. If it does not work out, I will let you know the gory details.
 

M.R.J. Le Blanc

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So you received no advance, are skeptical about their distribution and promotion, you are 'paying nothing' but will need books on hand? Books you'll be buying from Black Rose that probably won't count towards your royalties?

Just where exactly are you 'paying nothing'?
 

EgyptianGoddess

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So you received no advance, are skeptical about their distribution and promotion, you are 'paying nothing' but will need books on hand? Books you'll be buying from Black Rose that probably won't count towards your royalties?

Just where exactly are you 'paying nothing'?


Good point there:)
 

Mr. RBI

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I see...

I tell you what: After some of you folks sign on with Random House and receive 100 free copies of your book from them, let me know. I'll be jealous, but I suppose I'll just have to work my ass a little harder.
 

EgyptianGoddess

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I tell you what: After some of you folks sign on with Random House and receive 100 free copies of your book from them, let me know. I'll be jealous, but I suppose I'll just have to work my ass a little harder.


You know, she was simply trying to help you. Being snarky doesn't help anyone.
 

veinglory

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This isn't a tit for tat issue. It is about helping authors understand exactly what a specific publisher will or will not be able to do for them.
 

Parametric

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I tell you what: After some of you folks sign on with Random House and receive 100 free copies of your book from them, let me know. I'll be jealous, but I suppose I'll just have to work my ass a little harder.

Some posters in this thread are published with major New York publishers. So the sarcasm is not only unnecessary, but inaccurate.

edit to clarify: My point is that all kinds of people dislike tiny amateur micropresses with no distribution and no experience. I'm not trying to perpetuate the notion that only Random House authors get to have an opinion. :tongue
 
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AC Crispin

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I did a trilogy for Bantam, so I guess that makes me a de facto Random House author.

My contract stipulated fifty free copies of each book, and when I asked for extra books to send them to our troops, they sent me those, too, also free of charge.

But other contract terms are a LOT more important than the number of free books you're sent.

-Ann C. Crispin
 

Stacia Kane

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I tell you what: After some of you folks sign on with Random House and receive 100 free copies of your book from them, let me know. I'll be jealous, but I suppose I'll just have to work my ass a little harder.



Um...*raises hand*




This is why sarcasm is really not a good idea. We're trying to help you, not belittle you. So there's no need to attempt to belittle us in return, okay?


(ETA: Yeah, I'll probably end up with 50 or so copies of each book, rather than 100 [though if I wanted more I could ask and would probably get them]. So? What am I going to do with them anyway? I'll just give them away, seeing as how I can't sell them and I don't need to.)
 
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Mr. RBI

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Thank you--
Since I'd already signed, if you really were trying to help, you might have, perhaps, given me advice on how to promote the book in conjunction with the publisher. Maybe somebody could have mentioned how they promoted their books when they had but a few in hand. If you look back on this thread, you may notice that I was not the one who began with the sarcasm. I always appreciate any help I can get on these topics. Most of the attacks of Black Rose on these boards had to do with contract stipulations that would cost an author money. These criticisms are not true--at least, from my own dealings with this publisher. Nobody should pay to publish. But even in my first two experiences with extremely successful houses, I had to buy additional books at a discount to entertain certain media outlets. Unless you are fortunate enough to get picked up by the fillet of the publishing world, you are going to spend some of your own money on promotion. Should I have not signed? I was waiting for other houses and some agents who had requested the full, but they were taking forever. Given the publishing realities today, getting a non-vanity house--even an experienced one--is better than writing books that do nothing but sit around taking up space on the hard drive. Thank you for trying to save me (not sarcasm), and if my reality becomes ugly, I will return to these boards and provide the informative details.-- Mr. RBI
 

Marian Perera

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Thank you--
Since I'd already signed, if you really were trying to help, you might have, perhaps, given me advice on how to promote the book in conjunction with the publisher.

There's a forum called Book Promotion Ideas and Advice, and I'm sure you could find useful information there.

I was waiting for other houses and some agents who had requested the full, but they were taking forever.

It's normal for reputable publishers and agents to take time responding to submissions. But personally, if I had to choose between going with a micropress started by an author with no experience, and waiting for agents who had requested a full, I'd wait for the agents.

And there would probably be even more waiting after the book was sold to a commercial publisher - as opposed to a inexperienced micropress which might be more likely to rush it into print. "Hurry up and wait" is just part of the industry.

Given the publishing realities today, getting a non-vanity house--even an experienced one--is better than writing books that do nothing but sit around taking up space on the hard drive.

But didn't you say that agents had requested the full of your manuscript? Sounds like it was doing more than sitting around taking up space on your hard drive.

Best of luck with the book, though, and let us know how it works out.
 

victoriastrauss

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My HarperCollins contracts supplied me with 25 free copies of each edition of my books, but if I wanted more I had only to ask. Plus, the company sent books to interviewers, reviewers, etc. on request--no charge to me.

I've now heard, separately, from two writers that there's a purchase clause in Black Rose's contracts. I'm waiting for a copy of the contract to confirm that.

The kind of self-promotion an author can do--setting up signings and appearances and interviews, creating a website, blogging, participating in social media, soliciting reviews, trying to game Amazon, etc.--is quite different from the marketing a publisher does (or should do). That marketing, importantly, includes a direct sales component designed to get books into physical bookstores (a lot of books are bought online, but even more are bought in physical stores, so for volume sales, you need a balance of online and offline presence--and despite what you may have heard, it is not an author's job to get books onto bookstore shelves) plus a distribution system and a standard discount and returns policy to support that sales effort. Authors don't have access to those marketing channels. If the publisher doesn't either, authors' self-promotion efforts won't have much to build on.

Small publishers often operate on shoestring budgets--partly because they aren't able to capitalize themselves properly (by taking out a business loan, for instance), and also because limited distribution, marketing, and expertise all but guarantee tiny sales. It's very tempting, therefore, for them to charge fees, or to settle into a business model where they count on their authors as their main customer base. Either way, it's a closed loop, with the author helping to support the publisher and the publisher looking no farther than the author for financial support. A publisher that has made money from its authors before their books are ever published has little incentive to take the financial risk of marketing its books to readers.

- Victoria

Edited to add: I've now seen a recent Black Rose contract (which is heavily based on the PublishAmerica contract) that includes a "minimum" 50-book purchase requirement (25% discount for 50-99 copies, 35% discount for more than 100).
 
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JephC

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About the claus...The actual claus for the book order was not included into the original contract. It was added in afterwards when Black Rose recommended the 50 books, and if the author said yes, it was then added to the contract. So it wasn't in the original, at least not in my experience.
My experience with Black Rose has certainly not been a bad one so far. That's not to say it will end up being the best choice for my book, but so far I can't criticize too much. In fact, my interactions have been quite positive thus far. As for promotional copies and the like; Black Rose does print a quantity of books for promotion on their end, 50, I was told, in which I was not and never will be charged for. Those are used for promotion on their end, free of charge to me..book fairs, review copies. They have sent out my novel to a couple different places for reviews that I am awaiting the response for, and those send outs were done without my urging. As I said, though, until I see more as to what the promotional system is, I can't say positive or negative. I'm hopeful for the positive, and we'll see if they live up to it. When I asked for an extra copy to give to a bookstore as a review copy, it was added to my order at no extra cost, so a free review copy. I also have a store interested in bringing some in, so I'll be waiting to see how the communication goes between the two companies before I make any other judgments as well.
That said: Mr. RBI - I am newly signed with Black Rose, but while I may not agree with everything being said on this board, I have found the people here to be very knowledgeable and helpful. As with any adventure, many people will be willing to provide advice you may or may not like, but it doesn't mean they're trying to provoke an argument. They're simply speaking from experiences they've had or heard about.
One piece of advice I would offer, in my limited experience, is that if you have given an agent your full manuscript, I would be careful about signing on with another before you hear back from the original that requested your work. Agencies, like publishers, often take between 3-6 months to respond, so it really is a game of patience. If one comes back now and says they'll accept your manuscript, but you've now sold it, it could come back to hurt you, depending on how many contacts that agent has.
At least, this is what I've been told and discovered in some research. I would actually love to hear more of what some of the more experienced writers on this board think of that.
 

IceCreamEmpress

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If one comes back now and says they'll accept your manuscript, but you've now sold it, it could come back to hurt you, depending on how many contacts that agent has.

That's not correct.

What would be professional, and what is recommended in all cases, is that you let agents know as soon as a manuscript is no longer available. That's just basic professional courtesy.

Agents don't care if you sell your book to Black Rose Publishing on your own, because it's not like that's depriving them of anything. What they do care about is that you are professional enough to let them know that the manuscript currently with them for consideration is no longer available, so that they don't waste their time on it.

However, it's not like there's a blacklist for people who do minor, thoughtlessly rude stuff like that.
 

JephC

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Ice Cream: Thank you for helping correct that for me. The proper perspective is always the most important one.
 

JephC

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It's after 11:00 pm, October 15, 2009, and I just checked www.amazon.ca (in Canada, not www.amazon.com) to find out my book ranking for the last little bit. The rankings are updated hourly...
Dreamshaper by J.W. Crawford
Here is my ranking:

#1 for Sci-Fi Adventure
#18 for Sci-Fi Fantasy
#402 for all books.

Here is the list for the authors ahead of me in Sci-Fi Fantasy rankings:
1) Time Traveller' Wife - Audrey Niffenegger
2) The Gathering Storm - Robert Jordan
3) A Touch of Dead - Charlaine Harris
4) The Ghost King: Transitions - R.A. Salvatore
5) Dead and Gone - Charlaine Harris
6) Sookie Stackhouse boxset - Charlaine Harris
7) From Dead to Worse - Charlaine Harris
8) Sookie Stackhouse - Charlaine Harris
9) Unseen Accidentals - Terry Pratchet
10) Breaking Dawn - Stephanie Meyer
11) Frostbitten - Kelly Armstrong
12) Born of Night - Sherrilyn Kenyon
13) The Graveyard Book - Neil Gaiman
14) Industrrial Magic - Kelly Armstrong
15) Last Argument of Kings - Joe Ambercrombie
16) Before They Are Hanged - Joe Ambercrombie
17) Born of Fire - Sherrilyn Kenyon
18) Dreamshaper - J.W.Crawford

That's a lofty list of authors!! For one hour, maybe more, I get to place myself among them on a list on www.amazon.ca....it may be a short lived moment, but it's one that I'm savouring at the moment! I don't know how many books that means were sold, but hey...it's pretty gosh darn cool!

The top 5 Sci-Fi Adventure books list on www.amazon.ca:

1) Dreamshaper - J.W. Crawford
2) Star Trek: Enterprise: Romulan War - Michael A. Martin
3) World War Z - Max Brooks
4) Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury
5) Sun of Suns - Karl Schroeder

In total books on www.amazon.ca:

Dreamshaper - #402

Harry Potter & the Philosoper's Stoe - #1,338
Harry Potter & the Chamber of Secrets - #4,453
Harry Potter & the Prisoner of Azkaban - #3,937
Harry Potter & the Goblet of Fire - #13,071
Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix - #12,948
Harry Potter & the Half-Blood Prince - #12,297
Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows - #882

The reason I bring up Harry Potter is because I'm a huge fan of J.K.Rowling, which makes this feel even more special.
It may only last an hour, but I'm pretty proud of this nonetheless...
Thanks everyone who's been supporting Dreamshaper!!!!

J.W.Crawford
 

priceless1

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If one comes back now and says they'll accept your manuscript, but you've now sold it, it could come back to hurt you, depending on how many contacts that agent has.
Hi Jeph. This is a business of "you snooze, you lose." Editors and agents understand this, so if there is a project that we like [I'm speaking in the collective "we"], we jump on it immediately or risk losing it to someone else. I know of any number of my agent buds who have been scooped by a competitor. It bites, but it's the nature of the beast.

I had an editor from Random House call me on a Friday night asking if I had really signed an author. We both got the query at the same time. I worked over the weekend to get the author. She didn't. I won, and it went on to become an LA Times bestseller. The Random House editor chuffed out a small laugh and congratulated me. No hard feelings. It's the nature of the biz.

Good luck to you!
 

JephC

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Priceless: I would love to show you a sample of my writing if you would be interested. If nothing else, the feedback from an agent is always welcome!
Beyond that, thank you for your message...it was certainly very informative! Everything is a learning curve, and I'm enjoying the ride thus far.
 

JephC

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My bad...thanks for the correction...as well, I looked at your website, and know you don't deal in the genre I write it...but I still say thanks for the information on here. A proper perspective is a terrible thing to waste!
 
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Mr. RBI

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Jeph, Is your book available in any of the stores in the United States?
 

Phantom Writer

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Hi RBI- I believe J.W.'s advertising is focused in Canada as that is where he is located. However, his book is available on Amazon.com. Just picked myself up a copy.

How are things going with your contract? Do you have your sample cover yet or a release date?
 

acmcclellan

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Black Rose Writing

Hey guys. I'm new here. I came across this thread as I've been communicating with Black Rose Writing and wanted to know something about them. Currently they are looking at publishing my childrens picture book. Their recommended illustrator, who looks like they do good work, is charging me $50 an illustration. From what I've researched this sounds fair.

However, I received this correspondence from Black Rose "Once released, typically, most of our authors order 50+ copies. Because of the extent of artwork expense, etc... would you be willing to order a minimum 20 copies at release? The retail price would be between $10.95 - $12.95 and you would receive a 20% discount on that size of order."

Is this normal? Since I'm already paying for the artwork, why would I have to buy my own books? Does anyone know who Black Rose distributes to or are they more of a "self publisher"?

Thank you!

 

eqb

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Their recommended illustrator, who looks like they do good work, is charging me $50 an illustration. From what I've researched this sounds fair.

Not fair at all! Black Rose should pay for the illustrations, not you.

However, I received this correspondence from Black Rose "Once released, typically, most of our authors order 50+ copies.

Another huge red flag. You should not buy your own books. It's the publisher's responsibility to sell them.

Run away.