Keeping At It

Aislinn

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Aislinn -- Thanks for the encouragement, and good plan to get the draft out over the weekend. Make it so! (I couldn't resist).

I like this kick in the pants! I'll have to make it happen tonight or tomorrow. I think I've lost faith in that particular idea though :(
 

Batspan

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Aislinn -- Show up and give it a go. Perhaps another idea will highjack you.

I got another science fiction flash out to a pro publication today, so I'm up to 11 out.
 
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Batspan

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Thought this one fit nicely on this thread: Stay on the fucking bus

Such a good fit. Thanks for posting that.

Persistence. I've racked up more than 100 rejections since I resurrected my short stories last May. Writing a lot more of them and increasing the number I have in circulation to editors has improved my detachment. The bus station metaphor fits well for many aspects of this process.

From writing many stories in different genres and in a range of approaches from light to intense -- I keep coming back to the darkest zones. Yet all the stretching has made my work stronger. No going back to the bus station.

Here's a wonderful bit from Bradbury: "If you write 52 short stories in a year, I defy you to write 52 bad ones. So you keep your spirits up."

http://bolhafner.com/stevesreads/ibrad.html
 

Aislinn

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Here's a wonderful bit from Bradbury: "If you write 52 short stories in a year, I defy you to write 52 bad ones. So you keep your spirits up."

http://bolhafner.com/stevesreads/ibrad.html

That's true. Even in my first year I wrote a story that did a few good things completely by accident, won a small comp and effectively earned me pro rates. Most of the rest of the year's output was dross that I'm still revising, but it only takes a little success here and there to keep the spirits up!
 

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Aislinn, thanks for that, it's an excellent article. Very timely for me.

Batspan, your output is really impressive! I can only manage about one short a month, though I am plugging ahead with the novel. I'm learning different things from each.
 

Batspan

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That's true. Even in my first year I wrote a story that did a few good things completely by accident, won a small comp and effectively earned me pro rates. Most of the rest of the year's output was dross that I'm still revising, but it only takes a little success here and there to keep the spirits up!

Sweet! It's amazing how elements will come together, often when we're not trying.

Stormchild -- Averaging one new story a month gives you 12 a year, which is a lot more short fiction than I wrote during the past few years, and a good rate for anyone. That's a good output on top of a novel.

My recent productivity is an attempt to fight the dejection of all the rejections. I had the optimistic vision that I'd pick up where I left off in college -- instead I lack the 3D peer support and live creative interplay that made the knocks more bearable during that part of my life, so I'm pushing hard to keep this project going when it's mostly eating into time I could use to make more income.

It's the do-it-harder approach to obstacles. If I wasn't getting shortlisted at pro markets I'm not sure I'd be working this hard on short fiction.
 

Batspan

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I've kept at it, yet I'm battling with demons.

Here's a record of the bloodshed - my Grinder stats from when I started tracking fiction subs at the end of last May, all to pro venues except for three to Apokrupha projects:

Lifetime Stats

- Pieces: 28
- Submissions: 111
- Rejections: 95
- Acceptances: 3
- Pending Submissions: 12

I've had twice as many personal Rs from this half of 2014 as during the last half of 2013, running at greater than 30% of responses.

I wrote more new stories this year than at any time in my life. I've taken leaps into contemporary fantasy, YA and humor -- after many years of horror and hard science fiction.

Despite often feeling discouraged, I keep pushing myself to focus on ways to strengthen my work. I've been studying openings, structure, characterization, pacing -- doing fiction boot camp as though this is the beginning of my writing life instead of my last shot.

After stealing more time from paid work than I can afford, I've taken to getting up at dawn to write before work. I'm not a morning person, yet this gives me a lot more writing time each week. Downside: Churning out enough copy to survive while indulging my fiction obsession is exhausting.

I've been reading Ariel Gore's How to Become a Famous Writer Before You're Dead -- inspiration to shift the definition of success and keep at the hard work required.

My plan is to give this slow-slow process a bit more time. At worst, this has been an amazing adventure in improving my craft on every level. The flash experiments, the drabble marathon, the new Gothic horror novel, the SF-fantasy seafaring tale, the forays into naked horror and the continued attempts to find homes for stories with outsider characters have broadened my experience.

I still want my work to find an audience, yet now I'm focusing more on the process, living in the work.

Self-publishing wasn't my dream, yet it looks more attractive by the day.
 

pdichellis

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Here's a record of the bloodshed - my Grinder stats from when I started tracking fiction subs at the end of last May, all to pro venues except for three to Apokrupha projects

I just checked my lifetime Duo stats. I'm zero for fifteen with pro markets over the past two years of writing mystery and suspense fiction.

But I've identified some superb semi-pro, token, and even non-paying mystery-suspense markets with outstanding editors and strong audiences. I also check these markets' TOCs to see whether they've published authors I know and like.

And while I'm so far striking out with the pros, I'm doing insanely well with these semi/token/non-pay markets, over thirty percent acceptance. By subbing to a mix of pros and these, I'm able to keep at it, despite the 0/15 pro market drubbing.

Good luck!
 

Batspan

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<snip>
But I've identified some superb semi-pro, token, and even non-paying mystery-suspense markets with outstanding editors and strong audiences. I also check these markets' TOCs to see whether they've published authors I know and like.

And while I'm so far striking out with the pros, I'm doing insanely well with these semi/token/non-pay markets, over thirty percent acceptance. By subbing to a mix of pros and these, I'm able to keep at it, despite the 0/15 pro market drubbing.

Good luck!

Thanks, Peter. Yes, there are wonderful markets at other levels. I've been following your successes, and your progress is especially impressive given that there are relatively few venues for mystery-suspense. Your 30 percent acceptance rate is amazing. I trunked a couple crime stories months ago, yet I've been keeping a list of possible markets in case I resurrect them. I'm also vibing on Hitchcock's accepting e-subs.

Your TOC-checking strategy is a good one. I check bio notes every time I read a story that resonates and add unfamiliar venues to my to-check list. My semi-pro list includes notes on who I've read in them. Pay rate's not the only thing -- reputation, fit, aesthetics, good company, editorial vision, reach, audience -- my ranking system comes down to happiness. How happy would I be to see my story in that publication?

I've been keeping an open mind to winging stories to semi-pro venues. A good thing to consider at the rate this top-down strategy is going. Your mix sounds like a good way to keep the spirits up and get the work out to readers. If I hadn't been inspired by that Apokrupha (semi-pro) call that led to two sales there, I'd be a lot more depressed.

BTW, in my Gothic horror novel I'm playing with the roots of crime and detective fiction -- I've always wanted to write a novel like this, so whatever comes of it, I'm glad I'm doing it.

I liked seeing your stats - helps with perspective. I'm keen on analyzing numbers, even though in this venture it's all speculation.

One of the things I struggle with is that I've been an entrepreneur most of my life, and entirely self-employed for several years, so my business brain keeps assessing this fiction venture as a dead loss. I've never invested such an outrageous amount of time in a project with such dismal result in terms of income.

Yes, many writers will continue to tell me about all the good stuff other than money, yet I relate daily to Dean Wesley Smith's comments about how cleaning up puke in a bar motivated him to succeed.

Even though my goal was to go full-out on publishing my fiction, the "cut your losses" credo nags at me. For now I'm compromising by accepting that this is a time-sucking, expensive hobby that at least helps me elevate a bit above the despair I experience when I spend most of my time copywriting.

Of course, if I was aiming my life at money, I wouldn't have opted for the MFA program in Creative Writing.
 
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Melinda Moore

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Your post is well timed, Bat. Although I may end up giving TMI :) I just had a very long conversation about writing with my husband last weekend. I come from a very puritanical, work hard/earn money kind of family. My parents did not want me to pursue music because they didn't think I could earn money with it. But when I brought home my first pro paycheck in HS followed by several others, they changed their minds.

But I left that behind for several reasons and now I'm pursuing a writing career. Since my youngest started full time school two years ago, I have devoted a large amount of time to writing (and before that for several years I snagged hours when I could). The first year the goal was to submit 100 stories and recieve 100 rejections so I could get used to it. I was fortunate and received 9 acceptances, which thrilled me even though they were only semi-pro and token (though one paid pro it's not a qualifying SFFWA market).

Then I wanted to go back to novels because I love writing novels. I chose to enter a crit group again and found out how terrible my writing was, thus tearing down the tough skin I had built up with all the rejections I'd recieved. No wonder I couldn't get any pro acceptances when apparently I didn't know how to even put sentences together.

So I decided after several months that crit group wasn't for me. I just needed to write and write and write. This year in Jan., Feb., and March I recieved two acceptances a month. Again, though, they were token and semi-pro markets.

Now, I haven't made a sale since March and my published novellas aren't selling at all. I am in no way contributing financially to the family. Worse, I'm pretty much a money drain as I pay $2-$5 bucks to sit at Starbucks because some days I can't stand to write at home. Plus, blog upkeep and money for my Photo Flare contests. It became overwhelmingly depressing last weekend.

I am in a different position than you because I'm not the main bread winner for myself, but I understand that feeling of working and working and working with no financial gain to show for it.

I'll spare you how supportive my husband is :) As we talked about the other benifits of my writing that don't involve money, I realized that I haven't been submitting novels to pro agents and publishers at all, and the small press I'm at isn't very well known. I can't quit now without submitting at least a hundred times to agents and pro publishers of novels like I did with my short stories.

So I've sent my new novel to a promarket that doesn't require an agent and also to an agent. I plan to send it out more while I finish up some unfinished short stories and then get another novel ready to send out.

You should keep at it, Bat, and try finding an agent for your novel. I think it's hard to make a living writing short stories even with a high pro acceptance rate. I think there is a lot to be learned in short stories and it's important to get your name out there, but making a living enough to give up all jobs with short stories seems extremely difficult. Good luck to us all.
 

fihr

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You should keep at it, Bat, and try finding an agent for your novel. I think it's hard to make a living writing short stories even with a high pro acceptance rate. I think there is a lot to be learned in short stories and it's important to get your name out there, but making a living enough to give up all jobs with short stories seems extremely difficult. Good luck to us all.

I agree, Melinda. Very difficult for anyone, even successful authors, to earn a living from short stories. I think for 99.9% of people, novels are the only way they will make real money to live on.

In Australia, the average income for a published novelist is $11,000 per annum. That's an average, so a lot of published novelists don't even make that much. No one could live on that amount here, not without external support. A lot of them teach to bolster their income.

I had a very successful author try to discourage me from writing short stories because 'you won't make any money from it'. I've met a number of successful pro-selling short story writers who all have day jobs. The pay rates per word from years ago have barely lifted while the cost of living has inflated.

I've met a few writers who feel guilty for devoting time to their writing when it brings in no or next to no money. I know I've struggled with that. I've had to consciously prioritise so that I can justify my writing time. It has to not be detrimental to the rest of my family.

Well, all our circumstances and goals are different.

But if writing is something you need to do, your main creative drive, then you need to find a way to do it, even if money is not going to flow in as a result.
 

fihr

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Just wanted to say, about subbing stories: I think subbing to semi-pro markets is great.

I think if I only subbed to Pro markets I'd be far more likely to give up than by subbing to both pro and semi-pro. Plus my work is sometimes a better fit for a given semi-pro market.

I think prolific authors can build a following through semi-pro markets.
 

Batspan

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<I can't quit now without submitting at least a hundred times to agents and pro publishers of novels like I did with my short stories.

So I've sent my new novel to a promarket that doesn't require an agent and also to an agent. I plan to send it out more while I finish up some unfinished short stories and then get another novel ready to send out.>

Melinda -- Good post, not TMI. The issues with music resonate. People may mean well when they're discouraging about creative work, yet it adds to the challenge. I was warned as a child not to write.

You have a solid plan. Being specific about goals keeps the process grounded.

I had a detailed letter from my first-choice agent -- he held my previous horror novel for a second read -- and I haven't given up on him. I was so set on him I never picked a second-choice agent. Maybe I'll send him the new one.

I should clarify I haven't had in mind making an entire income on short stories. I prefer writing novels and want to explore novellas. I sold a horror story to a pro antho and a science fiction novelette to a semi-pro antho while I was in grad school and expected to pick up where I left off.

I was about to publish my first eBook and decided to challenge myself to start submitting stories again. That was more than a year ago. Aside from all the new writing, which I've enjoyed, it's been disappointing. Even if I sold a few stories a year, or one novella, one novel, it would mean that much less copywriting -- my equivalent of cleaning up puke in a bar.

Fihr -- Yes, I've been reading more semi-pros. I've enjoyed Interzone for many years and I watch all the venues the rest of you contribute to. I'm watching antho calls too, as finding the right fit is key.

Even though I know other people grapple with these issues of time and money and worth, it's useful to hash it out and get fresh input. I'm pretty solitary and the one advantage is I have no dependents -- if I had to support anyone else, l wouldn't be able to live like this. As it is, I have multiple income streams, yet all of my money comes from writing in one form or another.

I'd hoped this year to tip the balance and have at least part of my income come from fiction. I do make enough from my vampire eBook royalties to contribute to my coffee habit, and I spent the proceeds from my three story sales on eBooks from two of my favorite genre publishers.

I made significantly more on ad revenue on my websites which took a tiny amount of time to write and build, compared to this short story venture.

I don't have any problems with keeping at writing. Even during the years when I didn't submit anything I wrote most of a novel, a few poems, essays, scraps of fiction, loads of journals and dreams and began creating multimedia projects and building niche websites -- writing is as basic as breathing.

The keeping-at-it part is getting it out to readers, and I'm leaning toward self-publishing -- novels and novellas.

I found a database of queer stories published during the last year. Only a couple in pro venues and not many across all levels. The odds are dismal. Not like this is at all depressing.

It's been a broadening journey, and it's time for some course correction.
 

Melinda Moore

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I found a database of queer stories published during the last year. Only a couple in pro venues and not many across all levels. The odds are dismal. Not like this is at all depressing.

It's been a broadening journey, and it's time for some course correction.

Hmm, were you looking in short story markets? M/M romance is hot right now in novels. When I go to the venues where my M/F romances are being sold, there are often more M/M than F/M or F/F. Don't know if you like romance but it does seem a big venue for male partners in stories.
 

fihr

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The keeping-at-it part is getting it out to readers, and I'm leaning toward self-publishing -- novels and novellas.

You seem to be doing a great job at persisting with that. These days, I think self-publishing could be the way to go, if you're happy you've subbed to whatever agents/publishers you want.

I've not self-published, but from what I can see, it's becoming a very valid way to build a following if you know what you're doing. I gather the Kindle boards are a good source of advice on that from people actively doing it - don't know if you've looked at those.

I think the pro mags are great - I'd love to be accepted by one - but they're still a limited marketplace. The world is so much bigger than that.

One thing I've been thinking about later, is how some of the novelists I enjoy reading often didn't go through the rounds of short story markets, honing their work to suit. Instead, they wrote the novels they wanted to write, the way only they could write them. (Lucky for them, they also found agents and sold their stories.)

For me, the short story markets are a good way to go because they give me goals to aim for, and teach me about the submissions game. I learn a bit about the expectations for genre stories, stuff that the writing course I took the last couple of years wouldn't teach me.

I'd like to find a place where I could learn about the different expectations of literary vs genre markets, and the different tools for each. I find it confusing. I've been taught by a literary teacher, and I love _some_ literary shorts, but I prefer them if they have a fantastic element. I'm confused by the requirements of emotion in genre shorts, compared to the super-pared back but sometimes powerful style of the literary ones. I wish there was somewhere I could learn about this (that wasn't biased towards either style) other than just trying to nut it out on my own. Anyway.
 

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V1c

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I found a database of queer stories published during the last year. Only a couple in pro venues and not many across all levels. The odds are dismal. Not like this is at all depressing.

It's been a broadening journey, and it's time for some course correction.

I'm sure it can't be all- of course I forget what year I published on in A Cappella Zoo (lit mag, therefore no pay) and my recent one also had my main character as queer - I think the world is coming around but I definitely see a good share of M/M stuff. Maybe because a facebook friend makes a good chunk of his living writing it (Romance). Then there was the Queering Edgar Allan Poe anthology released.
 

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I'm stuck. I am on week 2 of this same story and I am just stuck. And then I find excuses not to write. I work 10-12 hour days in a datacenter a system engineer. Sometimes I work nights. Sometimes I go in real early. I have an 18 month old daughter. My wife is bored at home since school is out (she teaches robotics and engineering at a HS here) and wants my attention too. By the time the day is over and I have private time to myself... I am just too tired and at this point I am frustrated. It is an awful sinking feeling. And now when I try to pick up where I was... everything looks and reads like absolute crap. :)

I don't want to just scrap and start over. I want to say I have finished at least 1 freakin story in my life. Yes, that is right. I have never written a complete story.

I am tempted to tell my wife that I have been writing but tbh, I don't know how to. I know this is utterly silly. My wife has never known me to be the "creative" type. I work in an engineering job. Even though we both knew her getting a Master's degree wasn't exactly going to pay off financially for us, I still supported her (and those damn student loans of hers ha). I just feel weird. It is a very private thing for me to want to write. I could never imagine letting her read anything of mine. I don't think I could handle her laughing at me or not approving.

I'm weird. And tired. And frustrated. lol.
 

Melinda Moore

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I'm stuck. I am on week 2 of this same story and I am just stuck.

I don't want to just scrap and start over. I want to say I have finished at least 1 freakin story in my life. Yes, that is right. I have never written a complete story.

I'm weird. And tired. And frustrated. lol.

Figure out what the conflict is in the story. Figure out any old solution to said conflict even if it's "Birds suddenly flew down and lifted him away." And tpye THE END. Now it's a finished story that you know isn't quite right and you can let it churn in your subconscious for awhile. Then check out Damon Knight's book "Creating Short Fiction", read it cover to cover and then write again.

Seriously. Damon Knight was amazing.
 

fihr

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I found a database of queer stories published during the last year. Only a couple in pro venues and not many across all levels. The odds are dismal. Not like this is at all depressing.

It's been a broadening journey, and it's time for some course correction.

I recently read a story in WoTF, vol 29 about a disabled girl with two dads in a gay relationship. Bat, I get the sense you write speculative fiction, rather than romance. Do you find there's much discrimination there against having queer characters? Sorry if I sound ignorant, but I'm interested. I stumble across the odd queer story from time to time. Apex published a take on Cinderella written by Rachel Swirsky that opened with some R-rated F/F content. It was a reprint though. Her writing is amazing.

I guess you're noting the mags that have published stories with queer characters so you can know that they won't discriminate on that basis.
 

fihr

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Figure out what the conflict is in the story. Figure out any old solution to said conflict even if it's "Birds suddenly flew down and lifted him away." And tpye THE END. Now it's a finished story that you know isn't quite right and you can let it churn in your subconscious for awhile. Then check out Damon Knight's book "Creating Short Fiction", read it cover to cover and then write again.

Seriously. Damon Knight was amazing.

This!

(And if it helps, maybe try thinking up several endings: a horrible one, a happy one, maybe one in the middle. See what you prefer.)
 

Batspan

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Melinda -- Thanks for the thoughts on M/M romance. Romance is something I threaten myself with the way I used to threaten myself with going into real estate or still threaten myself with going back to teaching (university, not kids - I'm not a total masochist).

I outlined and started a M/F romantic suspense last year. It ranks so low on my interests I haven't done anything more with it. Cranking out romance under a pen name wouldn't be worse than copywriting, yet it wouldn't do anything to further my work, which is horror, science fiction and fantasy. I found a thread on Kindle a year or so ago by a female horror writer who went into romance and kept wanting to kill off her characters. I could relate. :)

The stats I mentioned referred to short stories in speculative fiction venues, including anthologies.