Share Your Wank

morngnstar

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Hi folks. I finally got comfortable enough around here to request the SYW password. I might want to give the weekly writing challenge a try, though I don't have an inspiration for the prompt yet. I did have this one idea for a romance that kind of fits, but I'm not sure I want to (or could) go there erotica-wise. Probably not what you think.

I have a confession. I got started on erotica. Really raunchy, even twisted stuff. It should never see the light of day, unless the world becomes a much more enlightened place, at which point it will probably be appalled. But I thought some of it was pretty creative and even had interesting themes. My current WIP is pretty solidly romance, but it still has the hotness of course. Romance is just erotica grown up, by which I don't mean that eroticism leads to romance, but if you want to write a novel with erotic elements, you need romance to sustain it, and if you want to write romance, it takes time and needs a novel.
 

Maryn

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I can't say I agree with "if you want to write a novel with erotic elements, you need a romance to sustain it."

Granted, romance and erotic content paired together are very, very popular, but you can certainly write a novel with plentiful erotic content which does not involve romance. Consider especially the hybrids--erotic western, erotic fantasy, erotic scifi, like that. Often they're about a quest, adventure, or problem to be solved, with hearty helpings of sex on the side.

Still, glad to discuss further. And welcome to you!

Maryn, happy to see new faces
 

veinglory

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I have read some seriously good erotica with no romance, you can pull in other explanatory tropes. One I read was about a group trying to collect the sperm of geniuses without them knowing and was a comedy. Damn, who wrote that, now I forget....
 

Maryn

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Do share if you remember it later. I'd totally read that.
 

StoryofWoe

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Romance is just erotica grown up, by which I don't mean that eroticism leads to romance, but if you want to write a novel with erotic elements, you need romance to sustain it, and if you want to write romance, it takes time and needs a novel.
It's my understanding that what sets erotica apart from romance isn't so much whether or not there are romantic elements (because there can be romance in erotica), but whether the story focuses on the protagonist's own sexual journey rather than that of the couple. The lack of a "Happily Ever After" or "Happy For Now" ending is another factor, though there are plenty of books and stories in the erotica genre that have at least a satisfying ending. It used to be that you couldn't have a poly relationship in a romance, but I've seen more and more examples of this in erotic and contemporary romance these days that I get the impression that it's no longer a dealbreaker.

I agree that it's sometimes difficult to keep love from creeping into an erotic plot because the two are so often intertwined, but I disagree that erotica is some lower rung on the ladder that must inevitably lead to romance. While I don't necessarily think she's the definitive word on the subject, I often find myself turning to Sylvia Day's definitions of porn vs. erotica vs. erotic romance vs. romance whenever I need clarification in my own work.

I'm not really sure what you meant by, "if you want to write romance, it takes time and needs a novel" and I'd imagine that anyone who writes romance novellettes, novellas, and short stories would probably disagree. I guess what I'm trying to say (in a rather round-about way) is that rather than seeing romance as "erotica grown up," I see them as fraternal twins growing up alongside one another. Sometimes they play together, sometimes they play by themselves.

I'm curious. Those old stories you wrote: Were they short stories written with the intent to arouse or were they novels with a broader scope? Did you dedicate a lot of time, effort, and words to character and story arc, plot, theme, etc.? When I first started researching erotica as a genre, I was surprised by the sheer volume of stories on Amazon that didn't bother with any of these elements. I grew up on Story of O, Carrie's Story, The Sleeping Beauty Trilogy, and Kitty Thomas's work. The fact that romance wasn't at the center of these stories didn't make them feel less "grown up" to me. You mentioned that some of your older works were "pretty creative and even had interesting themes," so what about them makes you feel the need to add a disclaimer? The presence of graphic sexual content need not cheapen a story any more than adding romance to an otherwise non-romantic plot would automatically make it overly sentimental (though plenty would disagree with me).

It's tempting to want to put erotica into a box and say, "This is what all erotica looks, sounds, smells, feels, etc. like," but part of what makes it so great is that it is so open-ended. You have your somewhat simplistic spank-bank fodder, but you also have raw, emotionally complex, and highly affecting stories that sink into your skin and stay there, just like any other genre. Only, I happen to think that erotica has the extra advantage of aiming straight for those vulnerable areas where so many of our fears, insecurities, and repressed longings lie. There's so much potential to really touch (heh) someone in this genre, though the same can certainly be said for romance. Erotica is about the individual. Romance is about the relationship. Both can be good, bad, and "grown up." :)
 

morngnstar

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Sorry, I seem to have shot my mouth off. "Grown-up" wasn't meant to be a value judgment. I'm a bit of a Peter Pan. Also, this was just my hello post, about my writing evolution. YMMV.

Anyway, yes, sometimes my erotica had characterization, etc. Quite a few times, it probably was too expansive for a short story, and really should have been a novel, but I never put that much effort into it.

Also, about romance not being suitable to short stories, I heard someone else say that too. Of course it's not universal. But wouldn't you say there are a lot more erotic short stories than romance short stories?
 

StoryofWoe

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Oh, no, I'm sorry if I came off as heavy-handed. Your post just sent my brain-gears turning and I will do literally anything to procrastinate going to the Department of Motor Vehicles (...srsly anything).

As for there being more erotic shorts than romantic shorts, I don't have statistics, but if Amazon is any indication it certainly looks like there are a lot more erotic short stories for individual sale (and we can probably guess why). However, there are plenty of publishers who put out both erotica and romance anthologies. So yes, while there may be a higher volume of short erotic stories, I don't think that necessarily translates to romance being inappropriate at that length, which is actually rather broad. There's a lot of leeway between a short story and a novel.

Anyway, welcome to the erotica forums. Sorry I soapboxed all over your thread. ;)
 

DiloKeith

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While I don't necessarily think she's the definitive word on the subject, I often find myself turning to Sylvia Day's definitions of porn vs. erotica vs. erotic romance vs. romance whenever I need clarification in my own work...

Those definitions clearly make some important distinctions to show it's a matter of different goals and emphasis. I write erotica and dislike getting negative feedback that essentially says I didn't write a romance. I told the publisher I'd prefer that they didn't send my book, which they labeled as erotic romance, to romance reviewers.

I also agree, to some extent, that to provide the elements romance readers want, the stories generally need to be longer. Erotica can work well in lengths from flash fiction to novels.
 

Aggy B.

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Also, about romance not being suitable to short stories, I heard someone else say that too. Of course it's not universal. But wouldn't you say there are a lot more erotic short stories than romance short stories?

It depends on the market. Woman's World publishes 800 word romances in every issue. They also pay $800 per story. One of our fellow AWers sells to them pretty regularly.
 

StoryofWoe

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It depends on the market. Woman's World publishes 800 word romances in every issue. They also pay $800 per story. One of our fellow AWers sells to them pretty regularly.
*clears throat* Ahem, what? How did I not know about this?

Anyway yes, romance anthologies and short story markets aren't as obvious as the erotica markets, but they're there.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to do some Googling...
 

Maryn

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Women's World also publishes similar short mystery, with similar paychecks. I have several rejection slips from them. My favorite says "Too much thinking!" Uh, hello? Mystery?

Maryn, market research
 

Gringa

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I have read some seriously good erotica with no romance, you can pull in other explanatory tropes. One I read was about a group trying to collect the sperm of geniuses without them knowing and was a comedy. Damn, who wrote that, now I forget....

ETA:

THE MARRIAGE GO-ROUND, a play, reminds me of this. Swedish beauty wants genius sperm.
 
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Aggy B.

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Women's World also publishes similar short mystery, with similar paychecks. I have several rejection slips from them. My favorite says "Too much thinking!" Uh, hello? Mystery?

Maryn, market research

I was going to mention that, but my computer was being wonky.

Alas, I can't seem to write romance or mysteries that tight so I've never tried subbing there. I can write erotica that short, but not romance. Then again, I don't write much regular romance. Just lots of things with romantic themes.
 

JulesJones

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The genius sperm bank is probably "My Uncle Oswald" by Roald Dahl. *Not* one to give to the kiddies just because it's by the same guy who wrote Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. :)
 

Ravioli

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As someone who proudly keeps a men tally the length of my hair when I still wore $900 extensions, I can guarantee you - no romance needed to have an erotic experience.
My current WIP was initially supposed to be a bandwagon jumper for cheap pseudo-BDSM (the type that the general public can grasp), but while I've done a lot more with it, there is nothing romantic about it. At all.
It's more of a "f.. the pain away"/"Can you do me for a fiver?"/(worse) kind of thing. But reading the dirty parts myself and passing them to other similarly disturbed creatures for proof-reading/opinions, the general consensus is that it makes you blush and augments cranial pressure.

But is it romantic? Hell no.

@StoryofWoe thank you for that link, I found it very useful. Before reading that, I associated erotica with velvet, roses, wine and caresses... You know, the pretty turn-on stuff. Turns out my ugly old "I'll do you for a can of tuna because you know that's all you're worth" blob of letters is erotic.
 
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Maryn

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Let us all remember, please, that this part of the board welcomes 13-year-olds. Its content and language should reflect our awareness of that fact.

If anyone suspects his or her post may have crossed the line or given it a good hard shove, trust your instincts and kindly self-edit to express the same idea in more acceptable terms.

Thanks, everybody.
 

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This was a good thread for me to stumble onto. I have been wrestling with whether my latest stories are erotica, erotic romance (romaerotica?) or if I need to worry about it I think I must be highly suggestible. I find myself reading submission calls and thinking about how I could tweak something I'm really happy with into something I'm not nearly so proud of in order to make it fit the guidelines. Then I remind myself that I'm not writing the great American novel and not to take myself so seriously. My New Year's resolution was to have more fun and I'm doing to if it kills me lol.
Gyps
 

Reformed Gypsy

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Women's World also publishes similar short mystery, with similar paychecks. I have several rejection slips from them. My favorite says "Too much thinking!" Uh, hello? Mystery?

Maryn, market research

I checked out Woman's World submission guidelines. Maybe if I pretend it's the 1950's, I could attempt a story for them. LOL. Seriously though, if that's what they think their readers want, it's their call. Shouldn't be surprising that they still want submission by snail mail with a SASE enclosed. And I thought I was old school.
 

Reformed Gypsy

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Reading what I just posted, I should clarify that I'm not bad mouthing Woman's World. My mother and grandmother loved it. I am just amazed when I run across any business that has yet to embrace technology. The local transit system here just created their very first website in 2012 and they wonder why their ridership numbers decreased prior to its launch.
 

Aggy B.

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I checked out Woman's World submission guidelines. Maybe if I pretend it's the 1950's, I could attempt a story for them. LOL. Seriously though, if that's what they think their readers want, it's their call. Shouldn't be surprising that they still want submission by snail mail with a SASE enclosed. And I thought I was old school.

Some (but not all) of the pro paying markets still take fiction via snail-mail because it cuts down on slush. No doubt the potential $800 pay out would tempt a lot of folks who aren't serious writers if it was as easy as sending an email or filling out an online form.

Some (like the New Yorker) limit the number of stories you can submit each year through the online form. It's frustrating if you want to crack a market, but if that's a goal, then you put your best foot forward even if it means going through a few hoops. :)
 

veinglory

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The genius sperm bank is probably "My Uncle Oswald" by Roald Dahl. *Not* one to give to the kiddies just because it's by the same guy who wrote Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. :)

Yes, that is the one. I read it some twenty-mumble years ago but it did stick in my mind.