Doctor Who (may contain SPOILERS for current episodes)

Cyia

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Moffat also seems bent on retconning a lot of things to make them "his."

Case in point, the recycled plots and dialogue. He's redoing things that others did before him - and - better - to claim them as his own. (at least that's how it appears). I know we discussed this last year, too, as it seemed the man was bent on systematically dismantling years' worth of story foundation and rebuilding it to the image he decided it needed to favor.

Clara was the biggest instance of this. By making her "The Impossible Girl," and sending her into the Doctor's time stream to fracture into a million versions of herself who only existed to save the Doctor over and over (yet with no memory of him and with the handicap of having to grow up over and over...), Moffat essentially undercut every single plot line ever written for the show from its inception.

No longer was the Doctor the hero of his own story. A human companion was manipulating him to make specific choices, or rushing in to save him at the last moment. She became the ultimate dues ex machina.

And yet, having seen him regenerate into every face he ever had (including the War Doctor, because she saw that incarnation when Eleven came to get her), she suddenly can't wrap her head around the idea of him regenerating into someone so different from Eleven.

Unless there's a legitimate plot-related reason for that (such as she's forgotten her time in the time stream, or the Doctor isn't the Doctor, so she doesn't recognize him, etc) it's a sloppy script convenience. Clara shouldn't have blinked when Eleven became Twelve - especially after begging the people she believed to be Galifreyans to save him.
 

mirandashell

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Totally agree. The Impossible Girl thing was when I lost all patience and respect for Moffat.
 

Cyia

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*warning*

Topic shift incoming... :D

Okay, so as I'm going back through some of the older series, I know have an admittedly random question.

Shouldn't The Doctor actually be on UNIT's payroll? At least as a consultant? He's always going on in the reboot about never having money, but he really, really should have an account at a bank somewhere that's been collecting checks for the last several decades. It might actually be an interesting silly-aside for an episode.

I now return the thread to its previous round of Moffat-madness.
 

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Moffat also seems bent on retconning a lot of things to make them "his."

Case in point, the recycled plots and dialogue. He's redoing things that others did before him - and - better - to claim them as his own. (at least that's how it appears). I know we discussed this last year, too, as it seemed the man was bent on systematically dismantling years' worth of story foundation and rebuilding it to the image he decided it needed to favor.

Clara was the biggest instance of this. By making her "The Impossible Girl," and sending her into the Doctor's time stream to fracture into a million versions of herself who only existed to save the Doctor over and over (yet with no memory of him and with the handicap of having to grow up over and over...), Moffat essentially undercut every single plot line ever written for the show from its inception.

No longer was the Doctor the hero of his own story. A human companion was manipulating him to make specific choices, or rushing in to save him at the last moment. She became the ultimate dues ex machina.

And yet, having seen him regenerate into every face he ever had (including the War Doctor, because she saw that incarnation when Eleven came to get her), she suddenly can't wrap her head around the idea of him regenerating into someone so different from Eleven.

Unless there's a legitimate plot-related reason for that (such as she's forgotten her time in the time stream, or the Doctor isn't the Doctor, so she doesn't recognize him, etc) it's a sloppy script convenience. Clara shouldn't have blinked when Eleven became Twelve - especially after begging the people she believed to be Galifreyans to save him.

This was my biggest problem with that first episode, and that's why that whole episode feels like it's dialogue between Moffat and the audience, not dialogue between the characters. Clara should have been prepared for this. I can see her being surprised that he would go with an older face (although she saw 11 age at the end too) after most of her experience with the Doctor was with youthful 11, but she saw all the other incarnations. She saw him essentially grow younger over time. She saw the War Doctor beside Tennant and Smith in the special (and she didn't blink at the multiple incarnations then, IIRC). The entire reason for the conversations about his new face were for the viewers' benefit, particularly those who came in with Smith, or even who came in at the beginning of the reboot.
 

RedRajah

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Someone who's a much better writer than me needs to do a story where Victorian-era Torchwood takes on the Paternoster Irregulars.

I've already finished up one bottle of sake and I'm only two episodes in this season...
 

EMaree

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I quite enjoyed this episode, most because I'm loving Capaldi, enjoying Clara's character development, and digging the dark!Doctor stuff. Not a fan of the actual plotline though, which got confusing if you thought too hard about it, and I was sad that Journey didn't get to become a companion.

The 'anti-soldier' thing really bothered me, though. The Doctor has had soldiers for companions, and companions become soldiers (Martha and Mickey), and he regularly works for UNIT. The anti-soldier sentiment makes zero sense for him.
 

Max Vaehling

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Sidenote: Did Clara really see all those Doctors? I mean, I know it was mentioned in one of the episodes, but shouldn't those all have been other Claras? Or is she some kind of Meta-Clara who lived all those lifetimes?

It's not as weird as Rory remembering things that a Rory-shaped robot has seen in another timeline, but I wnated to point it out anyway. Maybe I missed something.
 

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I got the impression that the one Clara who was falling through the timestream was seeing the others, but it's a good point and maybe she didn't. But she did definitely see 10 and 8.5 in the special.
 

Cyia

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She definitely saw and remembered them all. When Eleven found her inside his time stream (or wherever that was supposed to be), she was confused by the War Doctor because it was the only face she'd not seen. She told Eleven she had seen all of the others, all eleven, but not that one.

I think the idea was that Clara fractured as she fell, then reassembled once she rejoined Eleven's present-time at the bottom.

Of course, that only opens the question of why The War Doctor was the only incarnation who didn't need Clara to save him, but it is what it is.
 

frimble3

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RTD could be very soppy, I admit. But at least when he brought out the dark side of the Doctor, it was for good reason. The Family of Blood got what they deserved. At least by the moral compass of Ten. And that made that story one of the better ones because the Doctor was scary. Watching him do what he did gave me chills.
Yes. When you get a glimpse of 'Scary Doctor', it puts the 'Let's Save Everybody Doctor' in context. This is what he's reining in, tamping down: that capacity for darkness. Without those reminders, he's just a travelling do-gooder. As you say, 'soppy'.
 

Cyia

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Just thought of another point about the Doctor choosing his face. The Sisters of Karn told Eight that their elixir was the "elevation" of Time Lord science, allowing him to choose his regeneration into the War Doctor. So the regenerations don't *have* to random. They can be, and usually are, but it's possible to control them should they dying Galifreyan have the skill to do so.

Okay, back to my Hulu binge...
 

phantasy

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I never thought I would say this but I miss RTD. I miss him a lot.

Same. His plots had more heart and were better connected. And he had to work with some ugly graphics. I mean, even 9 was dark but he was still cool. I think there should be a petition to get rid of moffat. There have to be other sci-fi British writers out there.
 

LOG

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I thought Gallifreyans were always a different race from humans. "Time Lord" was a nickname given by others on other planets, or something. Like calling humans "human" as opposed to Earthlings. They both mean the same thing, but one is location-based rather than species-based.

Is that not right?
Gallifreyans are people from the planet Gallifrey. Time Lords were originally Gallifreyans that then mutated due to exposure to the Time Vortex and Untempered Schism (although it's been suggested that having a TARDIS was a vital part of it as well). Eventually Time Lords became the ruling class of Gallifrey. They weren't really their own species though.

(Did they ever confirm the idea of looming vs. birth?)
Once they were cursed by Pythia the only way Time Lords and Gallifreyans continued to reproduce was through the use of Looms (until it was lifted by the seventh Doctor). The Doctor was definitely loomed into existence (unless it's been definitively retconned when I wasn't looking).

Actually, do you know what would be hilarious? And kind of awesome?

Twelve isn't the Doctor at all. That's why he's acting so odd. Journey's uncle posited the idea that they needed to kill Twelve, as he could be a replacement or replicant, so what if he really is. Like the scientist who created the "Ironside" Daleks.

Not likely, but it would definitely be a punch in the face twist.
I was actually kind of hoping that it would turn out the new regeneration was actually a reset of sorts and what we got would be an entirely fresh Doctor with nothing of the old ones. Would have made Eleven's final words terribly ironic.
 
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Shadow Dragon

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The 'anti-soldier' thing really bothered me, though. The Doctor has had soldiers for companions, and companions become soldiers (Martha and Mickey), and he regularly works for UNIT. The anti-soldier sentiment makes zero sense for him.
The only way I can think of it making sense is because each doctor has a unique personality. So, maybe it's just that 12 himself dislikes soldiers more than the past ones. It's still pretty contrived though.
 

mirandashell

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Same. His plots had more heart and were better connected. And he had to work with some ugly graphics. I mean, even 9 was dark but he was still cool. I think there should be a petition to get rid of moffat. There have to be other sci-fi British writers out there.

Yes, they are. And they deserve a chance.

Did you see the episode list I posted earlier in the thread? I think there are only two episodes in the whole series that weren't written/co-written by Moffat.
 

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The only way I can think of it making sense is because each doctor has a unique personality. So, maybe it's just that 12 himself dislikes soldiers more than the past ones. It's still pretty contrived though.

Yes, just like 11 liked fish fingers & custard, bow ties, and fezzes, while 12 probably does not, this is the explanation that I believe. I don't really feel like it was contrived. What would be the purpose? (I guess maybe prepping for dealing with Pink? That would be more foresight than Moffat usually does.) The episode didn't have to have Journey asking to join them. But, truth is, I can see 9 & 10 rejecting a soldier requesting to be a Companion exactly the same way. 10 might have worked cooperatively with UNIT much of the time, but that's a far cry from taking a soldier on as a Companion, and 10 was not happy to see Martha become a soldier. Anyway, I can almost see Tennant give Capaldi's speech to Journey, except he'd add an "I'm sorry" to it.
 

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I didn't like 9 the first time around. I'm now re-watching and am quite enjoying myself.

I have a friend who did the same. She came in on Tennant, and couldn't enjoy Eccleston when she went back to watch series 1. But she stopped watching mid-series 6. So when she goes back to Eccleston now, she appreciates him.