Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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gp101

AGENT vs PUBLISHER

Just read some disturbing news (news to me, anyway) when I followed one of UJ's recommended links. A publisher claims agents are useless to newbies unless we already have an offer from a publisher. So is it a waste of time to solicit an agent in order to get a publisher? Is that putting the wagon before the horse? Should we instead target publishers exclusively?

The only account I'm familiar with regarding well-known writers getting their first deals is Grisham's. Supposedly he sent his first manuscript to ten publishers before getting signed, not any agents.
 

Philip Fullington Ripper

Re: AGENT vs PUBLISHER

Lets see if I, in my glorious newbness, can handle this one. gp101 all of this information is paraphrased from earlier in the thread.

Jim's advice, very roughly:

Go the bookstore and find books similar to your own. See who published them. Look up online, or write to those publishers for their submission guidelines.

If they accept unsolicited manuscripts, send your mss. to the biggest or most desirable publishing house first. If they do not, send a query letter. If they reply to your query and say "Send us the first 3 chapters and Outline", then poof, your submission is now solicited. Send it to them.

Mind that you avoid simotaneous submissions unless the submission guidelines specifically state they are allowed.

Now, write letters to the authors of several books similar to your own, and ask them if you can have their agent's contact information. Write the agent contact information in a list, from most desirable (represents the best of the authors, in your opinion, or in terms of books sold, whatever) to the least.

If a publisher contacts you and says they would like to buy your work, tell them, "Could I have my agent call you back?"

Then contact the agents in your list, starting from the top, and tell them, "I have an offer from publishing house A, and would like you to represent me." If the agent turns you down, go to the next one on the list.

With a deal already offered, the agents won't all turn you down.

---

Forgive me if I didn't quite get it -- but I think that's the jist of James D McDonald's advice.

You can also send query letters to agents, of course, before you have any contract. Someone else can probably direct you to a trust worthy listing of agents, but I'd go with contacting authors -- because their agents worked well enough to get them in bookstores, so they're tried and true.

Trying to recruit an agent without having a single offer or publishing contract is more difficult however.

Philip Fullington Ripper
 

evanaharris

Re: Royalties

Phillip, perhaps you'd like to go all the way back to the beginning and summarize everything Jim has said exactly how you just did it, that way we'll have TWO very well-written pieces of advice.

And, actually, I reccomend this to Jim, if he's all for it:

Wikibooks

Open-source text books, and, at Wikipedia.com, an invaluable encyclopedia.

Jim will lose a good deal of control over the material if he goes the Wikibook route, but it'd be easier for everyone to pitch in and help get everything together and organized under one roof.

The innate problem with any "get it all together in one spot" plan is that a lot of the best bits of advice come from questions. And that's just a bitch for copyright.

Some ideas, anyway.
 

sc211

Re: AGENT vs PUBLISHER

About Grisham, from an interview, "I was prepared for a couple of years of rejections. In the first three months, fifteen agents and fifteen publishers said no to me. Most writers go through that."

And this from an old Writer's Digest:

Grisham sent A Time to Kill to sixteen agents before one took him on, and then it took the agent a full year, and twenty-six submissions, to make the sale.

Still, from all I've read, what you said is true - it doesn't make much sense to look for an agent unless you've already been published or have a publisher interested.

And yet, David Morrell, in his Lessons from a Lifetime of Writing, has a chapter on the business of writing which does say that there are agents who are looking for fresh talent and recommends the usual books on finding them, such as the Writer's Market.
 

James D Macdonald

Re: AGENT vs PUBLISHER

All agents (who are worth having) are looking for new authors (in a general sense). As other authors drop off their lists, or they increase the size of their agencies, or they feel they can take on more work. It's always in a state of flux.

But it's in a state of slow flux. The lists may not change for years.

So ... yeah, Ripper's summary is pretty good.

There's also approaching agents directly. Some people manage that route.

You can go two pronged: Publishers and agents at the same time.

But... it's a long process. You have to find someone who loves your book, and it has to arrive when that person (whether editor or agent) has an opening.

While you're waiting, write another book. Use everything you've learned while writing the first one to make the second one better.
 

sc211

Re: AGENT vs PUBLISHER

Exactly so. As that Writer's Digest bit went on to say, "During that time Grisham wrote The Firm."
 

maestrowork

Re: Royalties

I definitely agree witht the two-pronged approach... it worked for me. And in the meantime, I'm writing my second novel.
 

SRHowen

Re: AGENT vs PUBLISHER

I went to agents--only one publisher with my latest.

A number of rejections, and I was almost ready to hang it up on the agent front and go to publishers myself. I said --these are the last five I am sending out. Period. Then I go to the publishers myself.

Among those five I signed with my agent.

Some things to consider:

And agent with a good reputation and the right contacts can speed the process. He/She can send the ms to any publisher both the agented and non agented ones. He can make contacts and send many proposals out at the same time--even have several complete mss out there at the same time.

And you don't have to worry about the rejections, or the sending out, or the research, you agent does that and you get to write, write, write.

IMHO anyway--

Shawn
 

James D Macdonald

Re: AGENT vs PUBLISHER

Exactly so. As that Writer's Digest bit went on to say, "During that time Grisham wrote The Firm."

It's a common item of folklore that Grisham self-published his first book. He didn't -- A Time to Kill was published in hardcover by a traditional advance-and-royalty paying New York publisher (albeit a small one).

Yes, he did do a lot of self-promotion. No, that isn't what made him a best seller.

What catapulted him into the ranks of bestsellerdom was when his second book (The Firm) sold to Hollywood before it was published, thanks to his agent. Nothing like a Tom Cruise movie (along with having a strong plot and solid prose) to notch you up a bit.
 

maestrowork

Re: AGENT vs PUBLISHER

When it first came out, A Time To Kill only sold about 5000 copies, mostly in Grisham's neighborhood. It's not a bad number, considering it was a small publisher.

Yup, a big movie deal would do that to you (can you hear me drooling, yet?). Same thing happened to Nicholas Sparks -- he sold the movie rights to Kevin Costner for "Message In a Bottle" before he even started writing the novel. So a solid first book is very helpful.
 

CapeRuby

Re: Another Newbie

I can't believe it, I've actually gotten to the end of the thread, after weeks!

I just wanted to drop a thank you note to all and sundry, and particularly some tremendous thanks and kudoes to James for an enormous amount of help.

I stopped writing at 22ish and picked it up with /intent/ about 4 years ago (after a long break). I want to write novels, but I've stalled out on 5 of them. (Well, 4, actually... the first was a collaboration, a completed rough draft that was shelved because of orienteering differences.) I keep hitting walls -- by which I mean, particular aspects of craft that simply aren't sufficiently up to snuff to allow me to get to The End. (After reading this thread, I actually am starting to wonder if they boil down to the same wall: not enough "idea" for a novel, or "writing to the wrong size for the story.")

Every time I hit one of those walls, I end up going back to short stories to work out the particular problem (be it plotting or pace or characterization or conflict) and practice the kinks out of it, but those don't sell, either, although some of the rejections are mildly positive.

On looking the stories over again after a rejection or two or four, I can see all too clearly why they weren't bought. So, at least I'm learning. I then say "Hell won't take 'em," and they end up in a box. It doesn't help that (I confess) I don't really like to /read/ short stories. I'm a brick-of-a-novel sort of reader, and really, that's what I want to write. On the other hand, doesn't popular wisdom advise one to work out the kinks in a shorter medium? I have to admit, it's been extremely discouraging to have four washouts -- all those wasted months, with nothing to send out for rejection at the end of them! I'm not sure I could even face a novel attempt this year.

This thread has given me a lot of insight into process, which is exactly what I've needed, I think. So... sorry to make a short story long (pardon the pun!), but I thought it was rude to lurk without sharing. 8)

Thank you all again, and particularly Uncle Jim (and btw, I read Price of the Stars years ago, over and over and over and over.... I think I bought three of them. It made a wonderful gift!)

--Linda :)
 

Philip Fullington Ripper

So far.

Jim talked about novels as architecture. I want to write a novel like this. Gothic architecture is a neat thing. It has two basics that differentiate it from earlier styles; first, its arches come to a point; second, it uses flying buttresses. Flying buttresses are half an arch, built on the outside of a building to give it further support. They allow you to build much taller structures.

The highest point in most buildings made in this style is a dome, that is, a three dimensional arch that is supported not only by the sides, but by the front and rear of the building. Often, a series of smaller domes, supported by four arches each, make up the rest of the ceiling.

If you look at the ceiling of Laon Cathedral you'll actually see the arches built into the dome itself. In this instance, five arches to each dome. This looks similar to Jim's celtic knots.

This style of ceiling, and the flying buttresses, allow you to make huge open spaces inside the building. This is especially useful for cathedrals, which is why the most famous examples of gothic architecture are cathedrals (the most famous being Notre Dame).

I imagine the flying buttresses as subplots, the rows of archways that hold up the walls as characterization, the small domes and their arches as plot, the highest, giant dome (which relies structuraly on every single other element) as the climax. The vast open space inside, meant to inspire thoughts of divinity, is theme.

The minute carvings, the tapestries, the windows, all the details are the language. The deep foundation is what I know that you do not. To hold up that weight the foundation has to be large and heavy, but would ruin the art to be seen.

----------

Now that lovely concept in my head is so far not even remotely related to what I'm writing. I make myself write an hour a day, but so far I've written on average two or three. I'm new to this. I'm sloppy. But I force words onto paper.

I have 68 pages right now, but half of that is not story. When I'm stuck, which is all the time, to get myself writing I write whatever I have to. I go over the scenes but don't list dialogue, or I write about what I think the next scene should be. Whatever I have to do to keep my hands moving.

I leave all this gibberish in my files. I don't cut anything out. I think of it in my head as my zero draft. On the downside, if I want a 400 page mss. it means I'll have 800 pages in the file.

Is this a dangerous thing to do? Would it be better to only write what belongs there, rather than force-writing and commentary just to keep moving? Because I've never done this before, I'm worried about falling into pitfalls that I'm not familiar with.

Today is the first day in the past nine that I've had a really hard time with it. In the meantime, I'm just repeating to myself over and over that it's okay to have a hard time with it. Just like I repeat to myself that it's okay to write horribly, as long as I'm writing.

Philip Fullington Ripper

P.S. I feel you CapeRuby. Next time, finish it even when you hit the brick wall. Even if it sucks horribly and you don't like it. Wouldn't you rather have a finished, but flawed mss. than four aborted attempts?
 

James D Macdonald

Re: So far.

It doesn't help that (I confess) I don't really like to /read/ short stories. I'm a brick-of-a-novel sort of reader, and really, that's what I want to write. On the other hand, doesn't popular wisdom advise one to work out the kinks in a shorter medium?

It doesn't make much sense to me to write a form that you don't enjoy reading.

And many fine novelists have never published a short story in their lives.

I have 68 pages right now, but half of that is not story. When I'm stuck, which is all the time, to get myself writing I write whatever I have to. I go over the scenes but don't list dialogue, or I write about what I think the next scene should be. Whatever I have to do to keep my hands moving.

Hey, that's nothing. In some of my outlines I have myself as a character, talking about what I want to have happen in a scene, discussing it with the characters.

Whatever it takes to get words on the page. You can work with words on the page. It's a lot harder to work on ideas that are only in your head.
 

maestrowork

Re: AGENT vs PUBLISHER

A writing teacher once told me: the best way to keep writing is to simply BIC and write stream-of-consciousness thing. Anything that comes out of your mind. Just write. And eventually something useful will come out of it.

Alas! I have never been able to follow that advice, but I still think it's a good one.
 

reph

Re: Another Newbie

CapeRuby, a current thread on the Short Fiction forum discusses the short/long issue.
 

JimMorcombe

A caution

U.J. has emphasised the BIC method of writing and I couldn't agree with his advice more.

However, his "its okay to write crap" advice needs to be tempered.

I have BIC'ed faithfully and produced draft one of a novel. When things wouldn't flow nicely, I just forced my way through and wrote poor prose, figuring I'd turn it into good prose during the editting stage.

Unfortunately, I hate editting. When I get to a section of crap, I really feel bad about my writing ability and the editting slows down further.

Robert Mitchener claim their first draft is always bad. He said he was a very poor writer, but a world class rewriter.

On the other extreme, Robert Heinlein said he never rewrote a word of a story unless the editor told him to.

I think we all need to recognise out like and dislikes, our strengths and out weaknesses.

Personally, I will never again put any words down on paper that I know are poor prose at the time I write them. It may take me three times as long to write a novel, but I'll enjoy it more and will probably get to the end faster anyway.
 

maestrowork

Re: So far.

I think UJ's ultimate motto is golden: Do what works.

If you find out you're a better writer than a rewriter, go for it. Although I must warn you, you WILL have to rewrite some, sooner or later, no matter how "perfect" your frist draft is.
 

sc211

Re: Another Newbie

I love editing. It keeps me from writing.:D

But seriously, do you know what a treppenwitz is? It's a German word for "the wit of the stairway," meaning those brilliant comebacks you think of only as you're leaving the party.

That's why I love rewriting - you can be as brilliant as you wish (given enough time, inspiration, and/or vaguely illegal substances).

(Just rewrote that. ;) )
 

Writing Again

Re: A caution

I enjoy rewriting as much as I enjoy producing the original concept. I feel about editing my ms the way a car buff feels about waxing and polishing a much loved automobile.
 

Writing Again

Re: So far.

I have started reading "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud.

For anyone who has not read this book, it is the kind I love: It is the kind where I read a page or three and then have to set the book down and think for a time before I'm ready to continue.

It is the type of book I would recommend for anyone to read who has a philosophical bent and or anyone who wishes to understand the human condition.

Oh, yes, it gives one thoughts on writing as well.
 

detante

Re: So far.

A friend of my had recommended McCloud's book, but I had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder, Writing Again.

Jen
 

HConn

Re: Another Newbie

It's a terrific book that has insights applicable for several kinds of writing.
 

Sarashay

Whoohoo! I made it!

I finally made it to the end of the thread! Wahey!

Been fascinating reading, I must say.

Now I guess it's time for me to start applying the lessons. Though I will say I have a few Key Lime pies left to bake before I start building crates.

Oh, I wanted to say something in Peter David's defense, regarding something that was posted oh, about six months ago regarding one of his novels, where the villians' names corresponded to dishes served in a Seder (I think it was?)

Anyway. Peter David is my brother-in-law. He is, in fact, Jewish. Knowing Peter and his sense of humor, I can safely bet that he knew exactly what he was doing when he picked those names.

'shay
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

Re: Obligatory "Just finished reading it all" post

*happy dance upon joining the ranks of the Caught Up*

Egad. I may actually start posting to this thread. Look! I've already have! Eeek!

*slinking back under lurkstone for now*
 
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