Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

Rushie

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I'm thinking of doing a big, long, meaty post about how art is all about limits.

Life doesn't have limits. Art does. That's how you can tell the difference.

You mean like how there can be a big chunk of rock and then by cutting out a lot of it and limiting the rock to certain boundaries Michelangelo made David?
 

motormind

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I'm thinking of doing a big, long, meaty post about how art is all about limits.

Life doesn't have limits. Art does. That's how you can tell the difference.

Life has its limits too. For one, it tends to end rather abruptly.
 

Cranky

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James D. Macdonald said:
Sure, it can. For an individual. The universe continues.

"Life is a river," she repeated. "Only in the most literal sense are we born on the day we leave our mother's womb. In the larger, truer sense, we are born of the past -- connected to it's fluidity, both genetically and experientially."

Dr. Patel, I Know This Much Is True by Wally Lamb. pg. 610

That book is smacking me over the head with the force of a ball peen hammer.
 
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euclid

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What's a ball peen hammer?

Jim, looking forward to your long meaty post about art and its limitations.
 

euclid

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"Life is a river," she repeated. "Only in the most literal sense are we born on the day we leave our mother's womb. In the larger, truer sense, we are born of the past -- connected to it's fluidity, both genetically and experientially."


Sounds very much like Richard Dawkins's A River out of Eden
 
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Cranky

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Ha, yes! My apologies. I'll fix it. :)

On another note, the reason that particular quote came to mind (besides the fact that I just finished reading the novel), is because if the "river" flows from the past and into the present, I don't see why it wouldn't continue on to the future as well. So in that sense, I suppose life is still limited in that regard. You can go upstream, but it's a lot more work than being carried on the current, unless you want to hop out and walk along the shore.

Now that I've completely smashed the heck out of that analogy, I guess it's my way of disagreeing with Uncle Jim, in a sense. Life is linear, generally speaking. In art, you can step outside of that box much more easily.
 

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I'm thinking of doing a big, long, meaty post about how art is all about limits.

Life doesn't have limits. Art does. That's how you can tell the difference.

I'd enjoy that post and would benefit from re-reading it bi-annually (as would most of us, I suspect). I tend to be too wordy, and find all sorts of things interesting (I'm the person who reads a novel and finds the arcane science or beet canning explanation to be VERY fascinating) but all of that needs to be pared down in my writing or it goes nowhere.

Less IS more, if 'less' means 'ruthlessly honed to a sharp edge.' Thus, also, the secret of poetic form (restrictions force better contents) and the danger of writing fiction without much of a plot (then the river of life becomes the river of Meander).
 

lucidzfl

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Comedy relief is an important technique. It makes the highs seem higher by making the lows seem lower, through contrast.

Besides, there's nothing like a joke to help your readers like a character.

Dear James, I have the same problem many people do, although I am aware of it, which makes me quite different from most.

I am a very funny person in conversations and with regards to topical / contextual humor. (IE: I can be funny when talking to someone and about topics we share knowledge)

I am however, dreadfully unfunny in my novels. In the 200,000-300,000 words I've written, I have exactly one joke. And its a good one, but I cannot write jokes.

Also, my MC's tend to be sad, morose, driven, tortured people. How do I write humor into them? (I want people to like my mc)

Thank you James.
 

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I am however, dreadfully unfunny in my novels. In the 200,000-300,000 words I've written, I have exactly one joke. And its a good one, but I cannot write jokes.

Humor is not necessarily about telling jokes. Let your characters do or say funny stuff without being too blatant about it. The best humor in novels often is rather subtle.

Also, my MC's tend to be sad, morose, driven, tortured people. How do I write humor into them? (I want people to like my mc)

Irony helps. Cynicism too, but is much harder to handle.
 

euclid

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I seem to have a new problem. My latest WIP is now about 38,000 words (see my sig.) I've drafted 32 out of 48 chapters. The problem is ITS NEARLY ALL DIALOGUE. Just about every scene is made up of 80%-90% dialogue.

Having said that, I do have to go back and fill in a lot of MC thoughts etc. Also, I have to flesh out a number of sub-plots, so maybe the final first draft won't be quite so full of dialogue.

Is there a rule-of-thumb about the ideal amount of dialogue?
 

motormind

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Is there a rule-of-thumb about the ideal amount of dialogue?

No. But you can be sure you crossed the line when your beta readers complain about characters never shutting up.
 

lucidzfl

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Humor is not necessarily about telling jokes. Let your characters do or say funny stuff without being too blatant about it. The best humor in novels often is rather subtle.



Irony helps. Cynicism too, but is much harder to handle.

I'll try to figure it out. I cannot imagine my MC doing anything sarcastic or funny at all. To be honest, as I said, the only humor I've had in the story was in the one brief time in which my MC had some time away from the wars.

He's constantly being put upon, attacked, and seeing people he cares about die, so I don't know how to inject humor. The story is pretty dark.

ETA: I can definitely have surrounding characters be funny or amusing, but I can't concieve of my MC doing anything remotely humorous. Does that make him unlikeable?
 

euclid

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Dear James, I have the same problem many people do, although I am aware of it, which makes me quite different from most.

I am a very funny person in conversations and with regards to topical / contextual humor. (IE: I can be funny when talking to someone and about topics we share knowledge)

I am however, dreadfully unfunny in my novels. In the 200,000-300,000 words I've written, I have exactly one joke. And its a good one, but I cannot write jokes.

Also, my MC's tend to be sad, morose, driven, tortured people. How do I write humor into them? (I want people to like my mc)

I have this problem. I find when I'm talking the funnies just flow out of me. Things other people say spark ideas, witticisms in me. I can't help it. But put me sitting in front of a computer screen and all that disappears.

I'm not too fond of "jokes" as such in fiction. Amusing, contemporary badinage, repartee is great, but not "jokes". Having said that: In my WIP2 (Historical Fiction) I decided that one of the characters needed to tell a (medieval) joke (at a camp fire). I gritted my teeth and started typing, and out came a medieval joke. I just started with the first thing that came into my head and ... it worked! In fact it worked so well, I wrote two more for two other characters. (I think I edited those out in the final draft).
 

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My problem is the complete opposite. When I am face to face I am not witty at all, but when I am sitting infront of a computer screen I am too sarcastic and witty.
 

euclid

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I'll try to figure it out. I cannot imagine my MC doing anything sarcastic or funny at all. To be honest, as I said, the only humor I've had in the story was in the one brief time in which my MC had some time away from the wars.

He's constantly being put upon, attacked, and seeing people he cares about die, so I don't know how to inject humor. The story is pretty dark.

ETA: I can definitely have surrounding characters be funny or amusing, but I can't concieve of my MC doing anything remotely humorous. Does that make him unlikeable?

When he overcomes his enemies (which I imagine he must do) he could be cuttingly funny about them. Think of James Bond's throw away remarks about the baddies that he kills. "He just stepped out." etc. What did he say when he bundled that guy out the window with a bomb between his legs?

Whenever a surrounding character says something funny, I try to rewrite so that the MC has the witty line. Sometimes this works.
 

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ETA: I can definitely have surrounding characters be funny or amusing, but I can't concieve of my MC doing anything remotely humorous. Does that make him unlikeable?

No, but perhaps a bit unrelatable. You could make him a "straight man" in a cast full of whack-jobs, but you have to manoeuvre very minutely to make this work. My current WIP's MC tends to be rather serious too, but I simply have a rather important side character spout ironic comments. Most of the other characters are a bit "off" as well, which I also try to milk for humor.

I think the trick is not to overdo it--and when you laugh your butt off about a passage, chances are it really is not that funny.
 

lucidzfl

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When he overcomes his enemies (which I imagine he must do) he could be cuttingly funny about them. Think of James Bond's throw away remarks about the baddies that he kills. "He just stepped out." etc. What did he say when he bundled that guy out the window with a bomb between his legs?

That to me seems like it would come across as cheesy oneliners like in old 80's action movies and this is 100% not at all like that.
 

euclid

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That to me seems like it would come across as cheesy oneliners like in old 80's action movies and this is 100% not at all like that.

Fair enough. It was just an example. It doesn't have to be cheesy, just a way for your MC to let off steam, to relieve his own tension. Anyway, you know best.

I seem to remember Connery had some lines heavy with humour when playing the MC in "The Name of the Rose". That was a fairly bleak story...
 

Calliopenjo

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Hi Uncle Jim,

Is there advice that I can give someone regarding show vs. tell?

On a side note, in regards to humor in serious situations. . . I refer to MASH. Bombs exploding left and right, roof is near collapse, snipers firing at anything that moves, surgeons breaking out in song, the company clerk wide-eyed with fear peeping out the window on the telephone. . . it's taking those situations and real life examples and making them fit. That's how I think of humor. Sometimes when you force something to work it doesn't.
 

lucidzfl

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Hi Uncle Jim,

Is there advice that I can give someone regarding show vs. tell?

On a side note, in regards to humor in serious situations. . . I refer to MASH. Bombs exploding left and right, roof is near collapse, snipers firing at anything that moves, surgeons breaking out in song, the company clerk wide-eyed with fear peeping out the window on the telephone. . . it's taking those situations and real life examples and making them fit. That's how I think of humor. Sometimes when you force something to work it doesn't.

Well certain of those characters were the comic relief. Some were nothing but, like Klinger, some were a mixture, like Hawkeye.

Some were just deadly serious all the time. Like any of the doctors who shared Hawkeye's tent...

In my case, my MC IS the straight man, so I'm not sure how to give him anything funny to say or do.
 

James D. Macdonald

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In my case, my MC IS the straight man, so I'm not sure how to give him anything funny to say or do.

Get ahold of the original British version of The Lord of the Rings. Aragorn has a sense of humor in it.

This was removed for the reprinted American version (long story short: Under the copyright laws of the time, since there hadn't been an American edition of The Lord of the Rings when it first came out, LOTR was in the public domain in the USA. Ace published it, as public domain, with no royalties going to J.R.R. Tolkien. In order to get it back under copyright, a new edition had to be created, and it had to be substantially revised. (You were wondering about the author's statement on the back cover of the Ballantine edition, "Those who approve of courtesy to living authors will purchase this edition and no other"? That's what that was all about.)

What was substantially revised was revising Aragorn's sense of humor right out. Made him more kingly, I suppose.

Example: Aragorn has just looked into the Palantir. Gimli asks, "Did you say aught, to him?"

In the revised edition, Aragorn replies, "Nay, Gimli...."

In the first edition: "What did you fear I should say? That I have a rascal of a rebel dwarf whom I should gladly exchange for a serviceable orc? Nay, Gimli...."