Newbie - seeking advice

Rationalist

Registered
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Location
New Delhi, India
I have just completed a draft of my book, a philosophical enquiry grounded largely on evolutionary theory, supported by the metaphysical views of nineteenth century German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. Having neither platform nor literary expertise of any kind, I guess self-publishing is the only option open to me.

How does one go about self-publishing? Approach a self-publishing service and let them do the whole thing, or get the draft edited and then typeset by specialized services? Is choosing the self-publishing service important, or are they all the same, the task cut-and-dried?

Would it be a good idea to go in for professional substantive/developmental editing? There are several editing services in India (where I’m from) that work for international clients, though I doubt if their level of skill would match up to their counterparts in the UK or US, who would also charge much more. And are quotations also part of the chargeable word count? Would a professional editor really improve my work, or would the changes be merely cosmetic?

My book is quotation heavy – perhaps a quarter of the total 140,000 words (the majority are cited from sources in public domain). Is that too much? Some writers seem to consider it below their dignity to cite others in support of their views (others choose instead to paraphrase, sometimes without giving credit), and I have read that while it is okay to quote for the purpose of criticism, one must avoid quoting in order to support or reiterate their views. Also, some feel that one mustn’t quote more than a line or two at a time – long passages exceeding 200 words must be avoided; leading nonfiction authors like Steven Pinker (1,955 endnotes, mostly citations, in his 800 odd page The Better Angels of Our Nature) and Matt Ridley, while liberal in their use of quotations, follow this pattern (they quote both in support of what they have to say, as well as for the purpose of criticism), including a line or two in a paragraph rather than a standalone quotation. Writers like John Locke and Rousseau, on the other hand, were not in the habit of citing others.

Redacting quotations, though not a big mountain to climb, would be painful nonetheless – I see no harm in citing material that supports my viewpoint, gathering and collating which has cost me a good deal of labour. Besides, as a reader, I personally find quotations quite informative. I could share a 1,000 word quotation-riddled excerpt from my book if anyone would be kind enough to offer their take on it.

Is it easy to obtain permission from copyright holders? Would they ask for a fee? Is permission required for quoting just one or two lines? Is permission required for one line of a song? Online research is not really helping with these issues. Some books like Grapes of Wrath seem to be in the public domain, yet I read that Steinbeck’s legal heirs are reclaiming its copyright from Penguin.

If a book is on Project Gutenberg, can we quote freely, or would the laws be country specific?

Any advice will be greatly valued and appreciated.

Thanks
 

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
8,943
Reaction score
3,151
Location
In God I dwell, especially in Eugene OR
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Okay, that's a huge bunch of questions and in small print, which makes it hard to go through.

I haven't self published and can't answer those questions. Some small presses do that books of interest by people without huge platforms who do have expertise in their fields or an unusually book.

Yes, if you self publish, you will need an editor.

A quotation heavy book is not a great idea in most cases. You might want to check that with a KNOWLEDGEABLE editor. You will need to cite anything that isn't in public domain. Translations will probably NOT be in public domain, so you will need permission, since Schopenhauer didn't write in English.

There are a number of threads here about permissions. Check for them.

Hope that helps. Welcome to the forums.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

plumone

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
107
Reaction score
3
I have just completed a draft of my book, a philosophical enquiry grounded largely on evolutionary theory, supported by the metaphysical views of nineteenth century German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer.


That's great- he's a good guy.

Having neither platform nor literary expertise of any kind, I guess self-publishing is the only option open to me.
That's not entirely true, but self-publishing is the quickest way in the door.

How does one go about self-publishing? Approach a self-publishing service and let them do the whole thing, or get the draft edited and then typeset by specialized services? Is choosing the self-publishing service important, or are they all the same, the task cut-and-dried?

I've found that there are really two type of self publishing companies: ones that expect you to deliver a finished product to them (usually in PDF file), and ones that will help you with typesetting, editing, and cover design. From my very limited experience, the ones that expect you to deliver the finished version to them are quicker with printing, easier to deal with, and cheaper in the end. You might need to pay someone to do your cover (try a local college's art department) and edit (lots of online companies do this) and typeset (you can do this at home using a program like Adobe or Lyx or find someone to do it), but in the end I've found the "We Only Print" companies are better to deal with. They will print anything you send to them as long as it is in PDF form and the pages are a standard size (which you can easily change in your document). The "We Only Print" companies' job is just that- to print whatever you send them, regardless of subject matter.
This forum has a great Self Publishing thread. You can find it by Publishing<Self Publishing: Print, Digital, Papyrus or Clay. Lots of informed people who can help you over there.

Would it be a good idea to go in for professional substantive/developmental editing? There are several editing services in India (where I’m from) that work for international clients, though I doubt if their level of skill would match up to their counterparts in the UK or US, who would also charge much more. And are quotations also part of the chargeable word count? Would a professional editor really improve my work, or would the changes be merely cosmetic?
It depends. Do you think you are good enough writer to catch your own mistakes? Also, are you publishing this book for yourself or do you want to sell it to the public? An extra set of eyes never hurts. Quotations would be included, most likely. There are all sorts of editing services- some that do spelling and grammar checks only, others that are more advanced and check for things like verb tense agreement and dangling modifiers, still others that will make sure you are explaining your major points well enough and will do fact checking for you.

My book is quotation heavy – perhaps a quarter of the total 140,000 words (the majority are cited from sources in public domain). Is that too much? Some writers seem to consider it below their dignity to cite others in support of their views (others choose instead to paraphrase, sometimes without giving credit), and I have read that while it is okay to quote for the purpose of criticism, one must avoid quoting in order to support or reiterate their views. Also, some feel that one mustn’t quote more than a line or two at a time – long passages exceeding 200 words must be avoided; leading nonfiction authors like Steven Pinker (1,955 endnotes, mostly citations, in his 800 odd page The Better Angels of Our Nature) and Matt Ridley, while liberal in their use of quotations, follow this pattern (they quote both in support of what they have to say, as well as for the purpose of criticism), including a line or two in a paragraph rather than a standalone quotation. Writers like John Locke and Rousseau, on the other hand, were not in the habit of citing others.

A quarter of a book seems like a lot, but there are ways to show many quotations without being obnoxious. Things like indenting total paragraphs, smaller font sizes, and the like. Robert Caro uses a lot of quotes in his books. Check to see how he does it for ideas. In the end, a typesetter or typesetting program (Adobe, Lyx, etc...) will be the one that will help you with this issue. Don't worry about what other authors think or do. You wrote your book the way you wanted to. You don't have to take answers from anyone- including this board!



Is it easy to obtain permission from copyright holders? Would they ask for a fee? Is permission required for quoting just one or two lines? Is permission required for one line of a song? Online research is not really helping with these issues. Some books like Grapes of Wrath seem to be in the public domain, yet I read that Steinbeck’s legal heirs are reclaiming its copyright from Penguin.

I don't think its usually easy to obtain copyright from people, unless they are not famous. Otherwise, it will take time to get a hold of them, you will have to explain your project to them, etc... I'm not sure if you need to pay a fee so long as you properly cite the work. In fact, I don't think you need to obtain a copyright from someone so long as you cite them and are not trying to pass the work off as your own. I could be wrong about this- any other ideas?
 
Last edited:

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
I have just completed a draft of my book, a philosophical enquiry grounded largely on evolutionary theory, supported by the metaphysical views of nineteenth century German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. Having neither platform nor literary expertise of any kind, I guess self-publishing is the only option open to me.

You might find a university press willing to take you on, or a specialist small press, but the lack of platform is a problem, I'll agree.

How does one go about self-publishing? Approach a self-publishing service and let them do the whole thing, or get the draft edited and then typeset by specialized services? Is choosing the self-publishing service important, or are they all the same, the task cut-and-dried?

Self publishing involves a lot of work, so you really should find out more before you set off. You're right to ask questions.

Self publishing services are often vanity publishers in disguise. Be careful. They can be good if you want to pay someone else to get your book into production: but in my experience (as a reviewer and publishing professional) their editing and marketing services are not good, and are overpriced. The quality of service you'll get from them varies widely, as do their fees. You can find your own editors and so on without having to use these places.

Would it be a good idea to go in for professional substantive/developmental editing? There are several editing services in India (where I’m from) that work for international clients, though I doubt if their level of skill would match up to their counterparts in the UK or US, who would also charge much more. And are quotations also part of the chargeable word count? Would a professional editor really improve my work, or would the changes be merely cosmetic?

If you're self publishing then a good editor is essential. How they charge depends on how they work, so we can't answer that question for you. I'd not use an editing service where the language being edited wasn't the editor's first language, nor would I use an editor who hadn't worked extensively in trade publishing as an editor.

My book is quotation heavy – perhaps a quarter of the total 140,000 words (the majority are cited from sources in public domain). Is that too much?

You're going to need to cite every single one of those quotations fully, and get written permission for all of them too. Make sure you know what "in the public domain" means: many writers erroneously assume that means "available online". You'll be asked to pay for permission in many, if not most, cases, and this can be expensive even for a book with only a few quotes. You might find the cost of this makes it impossible for you to proceed with the publication of this book.

Some writers seem to consider it below their dignity to cite others in support of their views (others choose instead to paraphrase, sometimes without giving credit), and I have read that while it is okay to quote for the purpose of criticism, one must avoid quoting in order to support or reiterate their views. Also, some feel that one mustn’t quote more than a line or two at a time – long passages exceeding 200 words must be avoided; leading nonfiction authors like Steven Pinker (1,955 endnotes, mostly citations, in his 800 odd page The Better Angels of Our Nature) and Matt Ridley, while liberal in their use of quotations, follow this pattern (they quote both in support of what they have to say, as well as for the purpose of criticism), including a line or two in a paragraph rather than a standalone quotation. Writers like John Locke and Rousseau, on the other hand, were not in the habit of citing others.

Under terms of fair use it's usually acceptable to quote a line or two. It's not usually acceptable to quote more than that. If you include longer quotes then it's possible you're not making your own arguments, but are using the work of others to make them for you: in which case, why would people not just buy those other books instead of yours?

Redacting quotations, though not a big mountain to climb, would be painful nonetheless – I see no harm in citing material that supports my viewpoint, gathering and collating which has cost me a good deal of labour. Besides, as a reader, I personally find quotations quite informative. I could share a 1,000 word quotation-riddled excerpt from my book if anyone would be kind enough to offer their take on it.

You need to have contributed to the community here before you can post your own work for critique; and if you don't have permission to use your quotes from the various copyright holders, I'd be reluctant for you to post it.

Is it easy to obtain permission from copyright holders?

You write to them and ask. Make sure you ask for exactly what you need, so that you don't have to ask again for further rights.

Would they ask for a fee?

Often, yes.

Is permission required for quoting just one or two lines?

Opinions vary. I'd say yes. But I am not a lawyer, just an editor. Get appropriate legal permission from a specialised legal professional before you proceed.

Is permission required for one line of a song?

Definitely yes. Quoting song lyrics gets very expensive, very quickly.

Online research is not really helping with these issues. Some books like Grapes of Wrath seem to be in the public domain, yet I read that Steinbeck’s legal heirs are reclaiming its copyright from Penguin.

Literary estates can be complicated. Assume that you need permission for everything you quote.

If a book is on Project Gutenberg, can we quote freely, or would the laws be country specific?

Check their guidelines and get appropriate legal advice. We can't tell you what you need, because we are not lawyers.

Any advice will be greatly valued and appreciated.

Thanks

You're welcome.

My advice is not legal advice and should not be considered as such. Find yourself an IP lawyer, and get the advice you need there.
 

Rationalist

Registered
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Location
New Delhi, India
Siri, Plumone, Old Hack – thank you for your advice and feedback. I wish I had joined this forum earlier – would have saved me a lot of unnecessary hassle.

Obtaining permission from dozens of sources, many of whom would charge a fee, doesn’t sound like a very great idea. I am trying to choose between two courses – redact/trim quotations myself before approaching an editor, or give my draft as it is to an editor, and let her/him help with the process.

I know this is not the place to seek legal advice; still, people do have some idea about the laws pertaining to their field of interest - no harm discussing.

If a quotation appears in Wikipedia, is it free to use (i.e. no permission required)? If Wiki can quote it, why can't we?

Is paraphrasing a quote, with citation, an easy way to get around permission?

If a sentence happens to contain words that have been used in a song, would that also require permission? – for instance if someone were to write “He made me feel like a virgin” as part of their prose. I intend to paraphrase a song lyric to sound something like this: “Like Billy Joel’s woman, genes only reveal what they want us to see.”
 
Last edited:

plumone

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
107
Reaction score
3
Rationlist-
I was thinking more about this subject and did some more research. Unfortunately, I can't find the webpages I was using. However, I don't think you need to cite things in the public domain. And most other things that are copywrited, it's a HUGE grey area regarding when you do and when you don't need to cite. Some people say you need to cite after using two lines of a song but not one; some say you can take a paragraph. Different court cases have ruled different things, in the U.S. There is no official law regarding how much you can use without citing it.

Just to give you some perspective.
 

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
8,943
Reaction score
3,151
Location
In God I dwell, especially in Eugene OR
Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Short paraphrasing with citation is fine without permission; extended paraphrasing is not recommended in writing in general. I believe paraphrasing is okay with song lyrics too, but am not sure.

The use of a quote on Wikipedia does not mean that the quote is in the public domain. They can use short quotes for educational purposes. They probably have gotten permission, but I'm not sure.

And yes, even public domain quotes should be cited. They just don't need permission.

Hope that helps.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
A few random thoughts, in no particular order.

You should cite every quotation you use, regardless of its status in copyright law. This is not only helpful to your readers, it gives due respect to the people whose work you are using in your own. It has nothing to do with copyright, and everything to do with good practice.

You don't need permission to quote things which are definitely in the public domain: but copyright law is complex, and it's not always obvious what is out of copyright and what isn't. So it's safest to seek permission for every quote you use.

If you're seeking trade publication this isn't just safest, it's a requirement. Many trade publishers demand permission for every quote you use, and it is the author's responsibility to get this permission AND to cover the payments required. It's not usually something a publisher will do for you although they will help you, which is useful as it's easy to get permission for the wrong things, or for not enough stuff: and then you have to go back and ask for further permissions, which is very irritating and time-consuming.

I think it's true that there is no legal definition of fair use or safe harbour, so it's wise to be cautious. Keep quotes to the absolute minimum, get permission, and cite everything.

Quoting from song lyrics is a huge danger-zone. Because even one line from a song represents a huge percentage of the work it's difficult to say what's reasonable. It is not just possible but likely that you will get sued if you quote a single line or a recognisable phrase without permission; and it is very expensive, on the whole, to get permission for such quotes, even if they're minimal. Be VERY CAREFUL if you decide to quote from anyone's songs.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Siri, Plumone, Old Hack – thank you for your advice and feedback. I wish I had joined this forum earlier – would have saved me a lot of unnecessary hassle.

You're welcome! AW is a wonderful place. I am glad you have found us.

Obtaining permission from dozens of sources, many of whom would charge a fee, doesn’t sound like a very great idea. I am trying to choose between two courses – redact/trim quotations myself before approaching an editor, or give my draft as it is to an editor, and let her/him help with the process.

I wouldn't use an editor to resolve problems I could resolve on my own. Good editors are expensive: why pay them to spot issues you know are there? And they don't change things for you, they only point out problems to you, for you to resolve alone.

If you're going to look for trade publication then there's no need to hire your own editor. Your publisher will edit your book for you, at no cost to you. If you're going to self publish then you will need to find a good editor: but make sure you know what you're getting, as there are several different layers to editing, and each one performs different functions.

If a quotation appears in Wikipedia, is it free to use (i.e. no permission required)? If Wiki can quote it, why can't we?

Because you don't know if Wikipedia's many editors and writers have quoted things correctly, or if they're within the law.

Is paraphrasing a quote, with citation, an easy way to get around permission?

If all you do is paraphrase you're still using that work, so you have to be very careful. You have to give your own interpretation of that work, and place it into a broader context, and use it only as a support to your own premises.

If a sentence happens to contain words that have been used in a song, would that also require permission? – for instance if someone were to write “He made me feel like a virgin” as part of their prose. I intend to paraphrase a song lyric to sound something like this: “Like Billy Joel’s woman, genes only reveal what they want us to see.”

You have to be very careful. You can do nothing more than refer to a song that someone wrote, without even naming the song or its author, and still get sued. There's nothing you can do to protect yourself from lawsuits. What you can do is protect yourself from being found in the wrong if any lawsuits proceed.

Looking for loopholes and ways round possible prosecution is not useful. Put your efforts into doing things properly instead. It'll be much safer in the long run.
 

nkkingston

Bemused Girl
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
1,116
Reaction score
67
Location
UK
Website
www.solelyfictional.org
Huge swathes of Wikipedia are infringing copyright. The wikimedians do their best to keep on top of it, but the nature of the beast means they're fighting a tide of ignorance and entitlement. Of course, the actual text of the Wikipedia pages are copyrighted too, since individuals wrote them.

Different countries have different copyright laws, which means things that are in copyright in some places aren't in others. Project Gutenberg is broadly in line with the Berne Convention, but I have found copies of works on some international sites that I haven't on others. Personally, I'd want to check up on anything published after 1900 - the cut off is technically 1923, but it's better safe than sorry - and bear in mind that translations count as a new work, so even if the original is out of copyright the translation may not be.

Songs are a massive danger area. If you can, just cut the lyrics. It's not worth the headache.

Fair use allows for quoting for the purposes of criticism. However, the definition of fair use can vary, and large companies aren't shy about taking people to court over stuff that's clearly fair use, because they know they can't afford the legal fees and will pay up to make the problem go away. The Center for the Study of Public Domain did a comic about the pitfalls of Fair Use which is definitely worth a read. It really opened my eyes about how far some IP owners are willing to bend the law (who usually aren't the original creators in the first place!)
 

WeaselFire

Benefactor Member
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
3,539
Reaction score
429
Location
Floral City, FL
If a quotation appears in Wikipedia, is it free to use (i.e. no permission required)? If Wiki can quote it, why can't we?

You can't quote it because you didn't get it from the source. You can quote Wikipedia, but remember that Wikipedia is not considered, academically, a reliable source (any fool can put anything there...). Corroborate anything you see there from legitimate sources.

Jeff
 

Rationalist

Registered
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Location
New Delhi, India
You can't quote it because you didn't get it from the source. You can quote Wikipedia, but remember that Wikipedia is not considered, academically, a reliable source (any fool can put anything there...). Corroborate anything you see there from legitimate sources.

What I meant to ask was if I am quoting from an original source, and that particular excerpt happens to be quoted in Wikipedia as well. With so much being quoted on Wiki, they probably cannot stay clear of copyright infringement on a mass scale, as nkkingston tells us (they're currently involved in a copyright dispute over a selfie clicked by a monkey). Being a non-profit organization, I guess Wiki would enjoy some advantage over others in these matters. And they probably are better placed than ordinary people to handle lawsuits, etc.

In the past I have sought permission from a couple of sources here in India. Everyone insisted on formal permission, no matter how little was being quoted, and one of them – a major publishing house – did demand a fee (for quoting 368 words from a 500+ page book); as the Indian saying goes – if you invite a bull to ram you – it will. You could quote a line or two without seeking permission, to never hear from the copyright owners, even if it comes to their notice.

After going through the responses here, I intend to play safe - I’ll try to keep quotations to a minimum, and seek permission wherever required. I have a lot of radical things to say in my book, which most people are quick to rubbish - the arguments do need support, especially from authoritative sources.

As Old Hack points out – if one does seek permission, it should be comprehensive – to include all future editions, all media of expression now known or later developed, and all future translations.
 

SunshineonMe

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
2,108
Reaction score
444
Location
Washington
If you plan to publish yourself, you might need an editor that does research. They will make sure your quotes are being credited to the right person. They are pricey though, just so you know.

It's possible that you might want to look into a content editor. They will help make sure what you want to say is being said, and not lost or bogged down somehow.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
What I meant to ask was if I am quoting from an original source, and that particular excerpt happens to be quoted in Wikipedia as well. With so much being quoted on Wiki, they probably cannot stay clear of copyright infringement on a mass scale

If you are found to have infringed anyone's copyright, pointing to Wikipedia and saying, "well, they do it so why can't I?" is not going to give you an adequate legal defense. Do things properly. It's safer in the long run.

as the Indian saying goes – if you invite a bull to ram you – it will. You could quote a line or two without seeking permission, to never hear from the copyright owners, even if it comes to their notice.

Of you could hear from their lawyers, who could demand a punitively high fee for the use and because you've used the material and the book is already published, you will have no choice but to pay up.

After going through the responses here, I intend to play safe - I’ll try to keep quotations to a minimum, and seek permission wherever required.

That is the wise thing to do.

If you plan to publish yourself, you might need an editor that does research. They will make sure your quotes are being credited to the right person. They are pricey though, just so you know.

Editors don't do research for the authors they edit. At least, not the ones I know.

It's not up to an editor to work out where your quotes came from and to ensure they're properly cited. They might tell you the format you're using for citing your quotes is incorrect, and show you how to do it properly: but you really can't expect an editor to go through and find the sources for all of your quotes and then provide the citations. That's the work of the author.

Having said that I do always check all the citations in the books I edit, but that's different; and it's pretty standard procedure for an editor, especially those who work in non-fiction.

It's possible that you might want to look into a content editor. They will help make sure what you want to say is being said, and not lost or bogged down somehow.

I think all books should be edited appropriately. That includes editing (also known as line editing, structural editing, content editing), copy editing, and proof reading. When any one of these three steps is skipped the book suffers, and that affects its sales. Sadly many self published writers skip two or three levels because of the expense involved, and it shows.