How do I improve my dialog beats?

Usually, I'll put an action beat in the middle of dialogue if the character says something, then does something, then says something else.

For instance, I'll use those frequently to indicate a change in whom the character is addressing.

"Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah." He turned to John. "Blah blah blah?"

It can also be useful when the first sentence causes the action of the beat which causes the rest of the dialogue

Atalanta said:

I'm looking for tips, as well as resources -- how-to books, or novels and stories with excellent (modern) dialog and beats.

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"Self-Editing For Fiction Writers" by Renni Brown and Dave King has a chapter on dialogue beats, with examples and exercises.

All true, but this is the Basic Writing Questions Forum and guidance for a beginner is to focus on the dialogue and proven technique for achieving flow, and to resist the temptation to constantly interrupt dialogue with doing this and that.

Mr Flibble said:

Anti ditto

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Me, too.

If a line of dialogue requires a supporting action or reaction, where that is placed--before, in the middle of, or after the dialogue--can make a huge impact on whether the dialogue works or falls flat. This is where a good ear comes in, not to mention a sharp sense of how to manipulate tension.

This thread could have been a lot more constructive had it been posted in the SYW Forum with an example of the dialogue in question.

Dialogue by Gloria Kempton. It's an entire book devoted to the art and style of dialogue. I learned a great deal from it!

As for tips . . . Try to avoid adjectives and adverbs as speech tags. "He said angrily," or "she said sadly," for example. Instead, let the dialogue itself carry the tone, so we know whether it was said in anger or sadness.

Also, one thing I was told to avoid by a beta-reader is, "he said," followed by an action tag.

"I want to go home," he said, sinking onto the couch. "When will this nightmare end?"

vs

"I want to go home." He sank onto the couch. "When will this nightmare end?"

Of course, sometimes, as in the example above, the action simply feels too abrupt, in which case having "he said," can help smooth the transition. In other words, it's something to keep in mind, but don't follow the rule mindlessly. Let the rhythm and flow be your judge.

Bufty said:

This thread could have been a lot more constructive had it been posted in the SYW Forum with an example of the dialogue in question.

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Can't argue with that.

Orianna2000 said:

Also, one thing I was told to avoid by a beta-reader is, "he said," followed by an action tag.

"I want to go home," he said, sinking onto the couch. "When will this nightmare end?"

vs

"I want to go home." He sank onto the couch. "When will this nightmare end?"

Of course, sometimes, as in the example above, the action simply feels too abrupt, in which case having "he said," can help smooth the transition.

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Not entirely that. These examples are not identical in effect, which is probably what you're really hearing.

The first -- he sinks onto the couch AS he's speaking the first bit. Complex action, where more than one thing happens simultaneously. (Which may or may not make sense in context; see gerund abuse: "Running down the hill, he crossed the bridge.")

The second -- he speaks, stops speaking, then sinks onto the couch. Entirely linear action.

So it really depends both on what rhythm you want, and how you want the action perceived. Too much of the second when you actually mean the first will produce that choppy stop-motion effect I'm likely to complain about. Too much of the second when you meant the first will turn things into a muddle.

Orianna2000 said:

Also, one thing I was told to avoid by a beta-reader is, "he said," followed by an action tag.

"I want to go home," he said, sinking onto the couch. "When will this nightmare end?"

vs

"I want to go home." He sank onto the couch. "When will this nightmare end?"

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Those examples have different meanings. In the first, he's speaking as he sinks onto the couch. In the second, he sinks onto the couch after saying the first sentence.

Your beta reader might have a point that you don't want to overuse that construction, but it's a perfectly valid construction that you see in just about every published book.

In many cases, you could use an action tag instead, but you might not want to depending on the rhythm of the sentence and whether you already have a lot of action tags in that particular section of the story. I know the rhythm in my writing feels off if I use an action tag before every line of dialogue.

There's nothing wrong with the sentence of dialogue you quote. Any sentence of dialogue quoted in isolation and out of context is most likely perfectly acceptable.

Had you used SYW you would hopefully have posted five or ten pages of dialogue in a particular scene and then any issues would be more apparent and could be pinpointed.

That makes it easier for folk to give constructive comments and illustrations of how to correct any perceived issues.

They may not be as bad as one imagines.

Atalanta said:

I was hoping people would have suggestions for books and exercises. I didn't see how sharing "I don't know." She grinned. "Try harder?" would net me better responses.

I'm going to order some of the books that were recommended. But it looks like this isn't something anyone can help me with. I'll just have to keep writing and look for opportunities to replace trite beats whenever I'm able to see something better, and just grit my teeth and tolerate them when I can't.

Thanks anyway, everyone. I appreciate the time.

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Atalanta said:

I was hoping people would have suggestions for books and exercises. I didn't see how sharing "I don't know." She grinned. "Try harder?" would net me better responses.

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Bufty said exactly what I would have. Several pages of dialogue would reveal potential problems and trends. One line tells us nothing.

Try different genre dialogue. Grab three Elmore Leonard books and read them. Then, maybe a snarky urban fantasy. The protags sound off a lot while doing a lot of things. Dresden, Iron Druid, Anita Blake come to mind. Patrick Kenzie books by Dennis Lehane.

Hope that helps with "examples". Showing vs. telling

I have trouble with general statements. Specific examples work better for me. I also have the same problem with repetitive beats. laugh, grin, nod, all appear far too often. My intention (now that I'm entering my 4,213th edit) is to go through a book that I've read and I know has good beats, and write down each one as I come to it. I'm going to then look down the list of one-liners and try to learn from it.

Angry Guy said:

My intention (now that I'm entering my 4,213th edit) is to go through a book that I've read and I know has good beats, and write down each one as I come to it. I'm going to then look down the list of one-liners and try to learn from it.

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This is a fine way of going about it (esp if ou try to work out how those beats are unique to who relates them)

You know, people do lots of things while they're talking. They walk; they move; they smoke a cigarette. They eat; they drink; they talk with their mouth full. They pat a cat, pick up a cat, put the cat outside. No reason that any or all of these can't be incorporated into dialogue. I do it all the time and nobody's complained about it. Yet.

I also read lots of books - I'm up to a book about every two days - and I see the same thing in the books I read. Sometimes, yes, two people sit and talk and do nothing but talk. It happens. You have to write the way things happen - the way they happen in your book. I do not see what the problem is in writing this way, and if there is one, then about a hundred writers I've recently read all have the same problem.

Bufty said:

All true, but this is the Basic Writing Questions Forum

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Just to add..

That this is basic writing is a good reason to not make a "rule" where none such exists, surely?

Everything can be overused. That doesn;t mean don't use it, ever

Arbitrary rules help no one if they are just plopped out there.

Atalanta said:

I was hoping people would have suggestions for books and exercises. I didn't see how sharing "I don't know." She grinned. "Try harder?" would net me better responses.

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Hey, I know this is coming a bit late. But I recently bought The Emotion Thesaurus by Angela Ackerman & Becca Puglisi. It basically gives lists of reactions, both internal and external, for various emotions. Among other things, this provides a crapton of beats of various levels of complexity. I think this is what you're looking for.

I think beats are important if you want to show a relaxed scene of dialogue. If it's an argument or other fast dialogue, then no beats can show the tension building.

Jamesaritchie said:

I think Elmore Leonard had this exactly right. Nothing whatsoever inside dialogue except he said/she said.

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Not to be argumentative, but E.L. used action beats inside dialogue a lot.

Bufty said:

People normally feel, think, act, and then speak in that order, no matter how many of those elements are used.

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True, though sometimes one feels, speaks, then thinks, Oh, shit, I can't believe I said that.

guttersquid said:

Not to be argumentative, but E.L. used action beats inside dialogue a lot.

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Yup. I think he was probably referring to said bookisms and adverbs like "he said knowingly," not actions taking place as people were talking.

jaksen said:

You know, people do lots of things while they're talking. They walk; they move; they smoke a cigarette. They eat; they drink; they talk with their mouth full. They pat a cat, pick up a cat, put the cat outside. No reason that any or all of these can't be incorporated into dialogue. I do it all the time and nobody's complained about it. Yet.

I also read lots of books - I'm up to a book about every two days - and I see the same thing in the books I read. Sometimes, yes, two people sit and talk and do nothing but talk. It happens. You have to write the way things happen - the way they happen in your book. I do not see what the problem is in writing this way, and if there is one, then about a hundred writers I've recently read all have the same problem.

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Same here on both counts. My feeling is you let it flow however it naturally feels like it goes. If someone pets the cat in the middle of what they're saying, then that's the natural thing to write. If they stop talking, then pet the cat, that's the natural thing to write. This seems to be how most of the authors I read do it, too.

Unless people are just sitting still and talking (and have enough to say to support that), I tend to prefer somewhat interspersed action, as when it's kept completely separate it tends to produce a stop-motion effect as they Act, then Talk, then Act, then Talk... Your reading habits may vary.

Renee J said:

I think beats are important if you want to show a relaxed scene of dialogue. If it's an argument or other fast dialogue, then no beats can show the tension building.

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Or the reverse. I have a pretty-much-all-dialog-over-breakfast scene where MC picks up a knife and as he's talking, uses it to do horrible things to fruit. This completely changes the tension, from just ill recollections to potential threat.

I remember a great scene in one of Bujold's books where the pov character is talking to a mentally unbalanced character, and she's meticulously shredding a rose and arranging the petals while they talk.