Bill thought to himself

Dennis E. Taylor · Aug 15, 2014

This question just occurred to me as I was proofreading. I use the title phrase frequently, i.e.

Some random thoughts, Bill thought to himself. And emotions and stuff.

In the face of it, this is obviously redundant unless you have telepaths (Some random thoughts, Bill thought to Fred). But I've read the phrase in so many books that it's become natural to me -- so natural that when I remove the "to himself", it feels chopped.

So, is this the kind of thing that would make you do a WTF, or is it just part of the flow?

Bufty · Aug 15, 2014

It's completely unnecessary - unless the reader has been made aware that Bill is accustomed to thinking out loud or in some way not thinking to himself.

You have answered your own question - - if it is needed for clarity use it, otherwise forget it.

rwm4768 · Aug 15, 2014

I've used the phrase, but only with telepathy involved. You're right. Most of the time, the "to himself" is redundant. In fact, you can often eliminate the "he thought" as well, if you've clearly established that you're in his point of view. Then you can just use italics to denote the direct thoughts.

Alternately, you can write the thoughts in third person if you're going for a deeper point of view.

mrsmig · Aug 15, 2014

I think it falls into the category of phrases like:

Alicia nodded her head.

Bernie shrugged his shoulders.

If one is thinking, one is thinking to oneself. If one is nodding, one usually uses one's head. Likewise with the shrugging and the shoulders. It's all unnecessary verbiage.

KTC · Aug 15, 2014

I once tried to shrug my head and nod my shoulders. Didn't work.

I agree with the others here...

CrastersBabies · Aug 15, 2014

The only time I would use it is (as someone else mentioned) during some kind of telepathic dealio.

Jamesaritchie · Aug 15, 2014

Angry Guy said:
This question just occurred to me as I was proofreading. I use the title phrase frequently, i.e.

Some random thoughts, Bill thought to himself. And emotions and stuff.

In the face of it, this is obviously redundant unless you have telepaths (Some random thoughts, Bill thought to Fred). But I've read the phrase in so many books that it's become natural to me -- so natural that when I remove the "to himself", it feels chopped.

So, is this the kind of thing that would make you do a WTF, or is it just part of the flow?

I haven't seen that phrase in a book in many, many years. If I do, I'll stop reading that writer.

quicklime · Aug 15, 2014

you usually don't even need "he thought." sometimes, for clarity, but often italics do fine.

He was standing there, smiling. Because he thought he was right--was certain of it.
Of course you are, I'm just a woman.
She forced herself to return his smile, and wished she could stab him in the throat, watch the slow-dawning horror as he realized his charmed life was going off-script.

Roxxsmom · Aug 15, 2014

He thought to himself is one of those little quirks I remember seeing fairly often in older novels and kid's books once upon a time.

I don't even use "he thought," as most of the novels I've read recently either show the "thoughts" directly as narrative, or italicize them without tagging.

So

Mary picked up the cat and tossed him back inside. How had he gotten out? She'd definitely closed the door before she'd gone to work.

or

Mary picked up the cat and tossed him back inside. How did he get out? I know I closed the door before I went to work.

benbenberi · Aug 16, 2014

I might use "he thought" as a tag if the passage wants a dialog beat and I'm not writing in a deeply immersed POV.

But "he thought to himself"? Only if story people are in the habit of thinking to each other. No telepathy? It's redundant verbiage.

Becky Black · Aug 18, 2014

I learned long ago to get rid of "to himself", "to herself", "to myself" etc. Now I'm working on getting rid of most instances of "he/she/I thought."

Can't get rid of them all, and there's a place even for the "to him/her/myself". After all, what would the song be without "And I think to myself; what a wonderful world."?

Reziac · Aug 19, 2014

Becky Black said:
Can't get rid of them all, and there's a place even for the "to him/her/myself". After all, what would the song be without "And I think to myself; what a wonderful world."?

Great example.

And there's a difference between just thinking something, and thinking it AT yourself, as if you're silently talking to yourself. That is where I use "to himself".

Roxxsmom · Aug 19, 2014

I can think of some novels (mostly older ones) where the "he thought to himself" worked. I think Tolkien did this sometimes in the Hobbit. Maybe it was part of the voice or tone or something, but it gave it a sort of quaint, avuncular feel.

No writing guideline is absolute.

Dennis E. Taylor · Aug 19, 2014

And what about "Bill smiled to himself?"

Or more to the point, how would you write internal amusement? A mental chuckle?

<eight-year-old>..snicker.. you said 'mental'</eight-year-old>

Roxxsmom · Aug 19, 2014

Angry Guy said:
And what about "Bill smiled to himself?"

Or more to the point, how would you write internal amusement? A mental chuckle?

<eight-year-old>..snicker.. you said 'mental'</eight-year-old>

Lots of ways, depending on how much you want to focus on it.

He suppressed a chuckle.

She nearly laughed aloud.

Sue choked on her drink.

Tom snorted out a laugh, drawing a curious glance from his office mate. Okay, so reading T.V. Tropes at work was a bad idea.

Oh my God, that guy was a riot. Better than that video with a cat in a shark suit riding a Roomba.

rwm4768 · Aug 19, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
Tom snorted out a laugh, drawing a curious glance from his office mate. Okay, so reading T.V. Tropes at work was a bad idea.

So true. I love TV Tropes.

dondomat · Aug 19, 2014

And besides, Francesca thought to herself, he had a wife

"44 Charles Street" (2011), Danielle Steel

Danielle Fernandes Dominique Schuelein-Steel (born August 14, 1947), better known by the name Danielle Steel, is an American novelist, currently the best selling author alive and the fourth bestselling author of all time, with over 800 million copies sold.

Poor woman, if only she knew how to write correctly

Reziac · Aug 19, 2014

dondomat said:
"44 Charles Street" (2011), Danielle Steel

Poor woman, if only she knew how to write correctly

"Holy goddess," I said to myself, "I gotta learn to write like that!"

Self looked out of the mirror and said, "Don't be ridiculous. You don't write romance."

dondomat · Aug 19, 2014

The mirror of ~~Dorian Grey~~ ~~50 Shades of Grey~~ ~~Sasha Grey~~ the unromantic writer

Anyway, continuing:

Go and smite the Amalekites, Rabinowitz thought to himself.

"See How They Run", James Patterson

James B. Patterson (born March 22, 1947) is an American author. He is largely known for his novels about fictional psychologist Alex Cross, the protagonist of the Alex Cross series. Patterson also wrote the Michael Bennett, Women's Murder Club, Maximum Ride, Daniel X, and Witch and Wizard series, as well as many stand-alone thrillers, non-fiction and romance novels. His books have sold more than 300 million copies.

But if beginner author X is really freaked out by the word "thought" in the combination, it can be easily exchanged for less frightening words like "admitted", "informed", "told" depending on context.

Roxxsmom · Aug 19, 2014

dondomat said:
"44 Charles Street" (2011), Danielle Steel

Poor woman, if only she knew how to write correctly

Yep, it would be great to write badly like some bestselling authors do.

Jamesaritchie · Aug 20, 2014

dondomat said:
The mirror of ~~Dorian Grey~~ ~~50 Shades of Grey~~ ~~Sasha Grey~~ the unromantic writer

Anyway, continuing:

"See How They Run", James Patterson

But if beginner author X is really freaked out by the word "thought" in the combination, it can be easily exchanged for less frightening words like "admitted", "informed", "told" depending on context.

Or the beginning writer can be better and just leave out all these things. Because a bestselling writer does something poorly, or horribly, does not mean anyone else should. "Well, he does it, too" is never an excuse to do the same thing yourself.

slhuang · Aug 20, 2014

Jamesaritchie said:
Or the beginning writer can be better and just leave out all these things. Because a bestselling writer does something poorly, or horribly, does not mean anyone else should. "Well, he does it, too" is never an excuse to do the same thing yourself.

But "s/he does it, and upon reading it I think it works, and clearly lots of other people do too" is certainly a valid reason for questioning something presented as a hard-and-fast rule.

Personally, I think there is a difference in nuance between "thought" and "thought to oneself." I think care should be taken in which one the writer picks (as with all word choices), not that the second should be banished.

The rule I follow: Use it consciously, not redundantly. If the "to himself" is needed for connotation or style reasons, don't cut it, but if it's vestigial, then out it goes.

Roxxsmom · Aug 20, 2014

If you're going to do something that's generally discouraged, be mindful of what you're doing and why. Writers (beginning and otherwise) get in trouble when they do things mindlessly. We're all influenced by our favorite authors and the people we read when we were growing up, but a technique used by a writer who's been in the business for 40 years (and is possibly frozen in time) may not be the best technique for someone just starting out, no matter how advanced their skills may or may not be.

That's why it's good to get a range of opinion from critting buddies and beta readers.

buz · Aug 21, 2014

slhuang said:
But "s/he does it, and upon reading it I think it works, and clearly lots of other people do too" is certainly a valid reason for questioning something presented as a hard-and-fast rule.

Personally, I think there is a difference in nuance between "thought" and "thought to oneself." I think care should be taken in which one the writer picks (as with all word choices), not that the second should be banished.

The rule I follow: Use it consciously, not redundantly. If the "to himself" is needed for connotation or style reasons, don't cut it, but if it's vestigial, then out it goes.

This.

Sometimes it just fits.

phantasy · Aug 21, 2014

Okay, I think everyone has missed something here. You use the 'thought to himself' when the character is talking to themselves mentally. Like:

"Oh shut up, stop being a dang fool," he told/thought to himself.

Without the 'thought to himself' the reader would think he's mentally yelling at the person in front of him.

Bill thought to himself

Get it off! It burns!

Where have the last ten years gone?

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Get it off! It burns!

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