Do you worry about Political Correctness ...

Kashmirgirl1976 said:

Pretty much. If the story is set in a time where people ran amuck with their ignorance and you have set guidelines showing the characters as such, then you are fine.

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I am struggling with that one, use terminology that fits the time period, but that I personally dislike or use terms I am more comfortable with but that are to modern for the time period I am writing in

I have a question that seems to fit this forum.

When I was a kid, black was beautiful. I was in Seattle and had several black friends and we used the term and everyone seemed okay with it.

I don't live in an area where there are many African-Americans, and I don't currently have a friend that I can ask. Is black no longer okay? African-American just seems so clunky, but I'll use it if I need to.

I've heard the term 'man or woman of color,' but that just seems so close to the old colored that it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a term that you have to belong to the group to use? (I'm of Irish-Swedish descent so I'm about as pale as it's humanly possible to be.)

Anyway, I'd love advice on this, because I don't want to give offense. I've avoided African-American characters in my writing largely for this reason.

Thanks.

CathleenT said:

I have a question that seems to fit this forum.

When I was a kid, black was beautiful. I was in Seattle and had several black friends and we used the term and everyone seemed okay with it.

I don't live in an area where there are many African-Americans, and I don't currently have a friend that I can ask. Is black no longer okay? African-American just seems so clunky, but I'll use it if I need to.

I've heard the term 'man or woman of color,' but that just seems so close to the old colored that it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a term that you have to belong to the group to use? (I'm of Irish-Swedish descent so I'm about as pale as it's humanly possible to be.)

Anyway, I'd love advice on this, because I don't want to give offense. I've avoided African-American characters in my writing largely for this reason.

Thanks.

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I'll respond with a question: Does your story need to care about the label? Can the character(s) in question just be "people" and have dark skin?

Just a thought.

CathleenT said:

I don't live in an area where there are many African-Americans, and I don't currently have a friend that I can ask. Is black no longer okay? African-American just seems so clunky, but I'll use it if I need to.

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The problem with that term is that not every American with black or brown skin is of African descent. And among those who are, there are those who don't like to be called African-American.

You're aware of the issue, which is about the most you can do about it. As mentioned above, African-American itself becomes a problem if you're trying to apply it to people who aren't American.

You can never please everyone, but as long as you're on top of how the way you term things may be percieved, it should all be okay.

The whole current 'redskins' team name broohaha is a good example. It's unmistakably a slur, but one that is treated a lot more acceptably than if they'd been called 'shines' or 'chinks' because Native -Americans have historically, and even today, have never had the presence, or capability to push back against discrimination and denigration like those other groups have. That doesn't mean you have to go burn all your sports memorabilia, but it helps to be aware that people might gave genuine grievances about the team's choice of name.

CathleenT said:

I have a question that seems to fit this forum.

When I was a kid, black was beautiful. I was in Seattle and had several black friends and we used the term and everyone seemed okay with it.

I don't live in an area where there are many African-Americans, and I don't currently have a friend that I can ask. Is black no longer okay? African-American just seems so clunky, but I'll use it if I need to.

I've heard the term 'man or woman of color,' but that just seems so close to the old colored that it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a term that you have to belong to the group to use? (I'm of Irish-Swedish descent so I'm about as pale as it's humanly possible to be.)

Anyway, I'd love advice on this, because I don't want to give offense. I've avoided African-American characters in my writing largely for this reason.

Thanks.

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I'm White, so no expert. Fwiw, I think that while "Black" might not be as preferred as "African-American" by some, it's not considered derogatory. I also feel self-conscious using a word with so many syllables and, mainly, a word I'm just not used to saying. Also, it depends on what character is saying it, what term you think they'd use. That's how I'd do it, anyway.

CathleenT said:

I have a question that seems to fit this forum.

When I was a kid, black was beautiful. I was in Seattle and had several black friends and we used the term and everyone seemed okay with it.

I don't live in an area where there are many African-Americans, and I don't currently have a friend that I can ask. Is black no longer okay? African-American just seems so clunky, but I'll use it if I need to.

I've heard the term 'man or woman of color,' but that just seems so close to the old colored that it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a term that you have to belong to the group to use? (I'm of Irish-Swedish descent so I'm about as pale as it's humanly possible to be.)

Anyway, I'd love advice on this, because I don't want to give offense. I've avoided African-American characters in my writing largely for this reason.

Thanks.

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I think you answered your own question, in a way. When there's a level of familiarity (as with your friends), I say black. When I'm in more formal situations, I describe myself as African-American, because I'm aware that some connotations surrounding 'black' do exist (in America). And FWIW, I only use woman of color when I'm talking to people who are well-educated about both race and feminism .

So...depends on the character and the situation, as others have said. If you mix it up, you'll be fine .

CathleenT said:

I have a question that seems to fit this forum.

When I was a kid, black was beautiful. I was in Seattle and had several black friends and we used the term and everyone seemed okay with it.

I don't live in an area where there are many African-Americans, and I don't currently have a friend that I can ask. Is black no longer okay? African-American just seems so clunky, but I'll use it if I need to.

I've heard the term 'man or woman of color,' but that just seems so close to the old colored that it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a term that you have to belong to the group to use? (I'm of Irish-Swedish descent so I'm about as pale as it's humanly possible to be.)

Anyway, I'd love advice on this, because I don't want to give offense. I've avoided African-American characters in my writing largely for this reason.

Thanks.

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Either is fine. Black is generally used and accepted more so than AA (as long as they are indeed American-born and stem from slave ancestry - not Caribbean, British, or Canadian). Man/woman of color is totally different from colored, which was negatively toned. The former is a term for anyone, black, Asian, Latino, Native American, and so forth. So, it's more encompassing.

Context is the most important issue here. But some people seem incapable of reading context or assume a deep Freudian meaning behind a simple or absent decision. Sometimes the human brain see's patterns that aren't there.

As long as your genre-savy and are familiar with the history of portrayals of given minorities/gender/nationalities/religions etc... your on the right track.

If your writing about a struggling single mother who happens to be black (stereotype alert!), readers who are (or were raised by) single mothers might relate positively (assuming it's well written) whereas a black person who had a solid upbringing by two parents might roll their eyes at yet another such story. Same goes for the Irish alcoholic.

But if your writing walk-on/off characters you need to be very careful. Likewise for villains. And sometimes the pedophile is indeed a gay man but there was a thread here recently about a writer who was anxious about writing such a story. It's unnecessary stress.

It helps to ask "why" your character may not be "politically correct" and "why" write them this way but you should also ask "why not?". Just because it doesn't add to your story that your character is over-weight doesn't mean they shouldn't be. Some people often say why does it matter that your character is black (example) and if it's not relevant to the plot then leave it out. I think this is the wrong approach as it adds to the invisibility of minorities in media. No one puts deep thought into why their character is a straight-white-christian-male aged 18-35 and they're rarely asked to justify their choice.

CathleenT said:

I have a question that seems to fit this forum.

When I was a kid, black was beautiful. I was in Seattle and had several black friends and we used the term and everyone seemed okay with it.

I don't live in an area where there are many African-Americans, and I don't currently have a friend that I can ask. Is black no longer okay? African-American just seems so clunky, but I'll use it if I need to.

I've heard the term 'man or woman of color,' but that just seems so close to the old colored that it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a term that you have to belong to the group to use? (I'm of Irish-Swedish descent so I'm about as pale as it's humanly possible to be.)

Anyway, I'd love advice on this, because I don't want to give offense. I've avoided African-American characters in my writing largely for this reason.

Thanks.

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I know this might not help but I recently read the final print issue of Jet, and they use black and African-American, sometimes even in the same article.

From their "About Jet" on their website:

JET is the No. 1 African-American newsweekly and has more than 7 million readers. Its properties, JET magazine and JETmag.com, continue the legacy of serving authoritative, credible and entertaining information to the Black community. The publication has been a staple in the homes and businesses of Black Americans since 1951, bringing life to its popular catchphrase: If it wasn't in JET, it didn't happen.

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CathleenT said:

I have a question that seems to fit this forum.

When I was a kid, black was beautiful. I was in Seattle and had several black friends and we used the term and everyone seemed okay with it.

I don't live in an area where there are many African-Americans, and I don't currently have a friend that I can ask. Is black no longer okay? African-American just seems so clunky, but I'll use it if I need to.

I've heard the term 'man or woman of color,' but that just seems so close to the old colored that it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a term that you have to belong to the group to use? (I'm of Irish-Swedish descent so I'm about as pale as it's humanly possible to be.)

Anyway, I'd love advice on this, because I don't want to give offense. I've avoided African-American characters in my writing largely for this reason.

Thanks.

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I'm British, where the word "black" is fine. I also feel the same way about "person of colour" - it jars, mostly because white and beige are colours. The term doesn't make much sense and it seems patronising to me. I don't think I'd like to be described as such.

I have included characters of all different ethnic groups in my writing, but don't use the words black or white to describe them. I'd rather write "She had brown skin, red lipstick and dark hair cut in a neat bob" than "She was black." - this conveys specific information about this character and portrays them as an individual rather than a member of a group. If their ethnic origin is important to the story then I'd probably be a lot more specific than "black" or "white", and might work it into the dialogue, e.g. "You have a beautiful accent, where are you from?" "Durban in South Africa; My mother's Zulu and my father's Xhosa." "That's really interesting, how long have you lived in the UK?" ... etc. "She was black" conveys only marginally more information than "she was human" - you can get a lot more interesting descriptions and information about your characters if you're not limited to terms like "white" and "black".

Avoiding stereotypes also improves writing... stereotypes are like cliches and betray a lack of imagination. Portraying characters as individuals is probably the best way to avoid stereotypes. Even if you take a potential stereotype (black single mother, as mentioned earlier in the thread) there are still many ways you can make her different to stereotypes. Maybe she has an interest in classical literature or is trying to start her own business breeding rabbits... anything that makes the character a little bit more individual and less predictable.

In any case I don't see any reason to not include characters of all different ethnic origins, just do it in a creative way and be sure to portray them as individuals, rather than as a member of a homogenous group (no ethnic group is homogenous). And there's no need to worry about what label to apply to people, because there's no need to use such labels in your descriptions. I'm not a big fan of labelling people anyway... people are individuals and human.

neandermagnon said:

I'm British, where the word "black" is fine. I also feel the same way about "person of colour" - it jars, mostly because white and beige are colours. The term doesn't make much sense and it seems patronising to me. I don't think I'd like to be described as such.

I have included characters of all different ethnic groups in my writing, but don't use the words black or white to describe them. I'd rather write "She had brown skin, red lipstick and dark hair cut in a neat bob" than "She was black." - this conveys specific information about this character and portrays them as an individual rather than a member of a group. If their ethnic origin is important to the story then I'd probably be a lot more specific than "black" or "white", and might work it into the dialogue, e.g. "You have a beautiful accent, where are you from?" "Durban in South Africa; My mother's Zulu and my father's Xhosa." "That's really interesting, how long have you lived in the UK?" ... etc. "She was black" conveys only marginally more information than "she was human" - you can get a lot more interesting descriptions and information about your characters if you're not limited to terms like "white" and "black".

Avoiding stereotypes also improves writing... stereotypes are like cliches and betray a lack of imagination. Portraying characters as individuals is probably the best way to avoid stereotypes. Even if you take a potential stereotype (black single mother, as mentioned earlier in the thread) there are still many ways you can make her different to stereotypes. Maybe she has an interest in classical literature or is trying to start her own business breeding rabbits... anything that makes the character a little bit more individual and less predictable.

In any case I don't see any reason to not include characters of all different ethnic origins, just do it in a creative way and be sure to portray them as individuals, rather than as a member of a homogenous group (no ethnic group is homogenous). And there's no need to worry about what label to apply to people, because there's no need to use such labels in your descriptions. I'm not a big fan of labelling people anyway... people are individuals and human.

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See, the description you gave me doesn't say black. To me the character could very well have been Indian, Thai, Cambodian, Native American, dark skinned Hispanic, or Black. Don't think dark skin is universal to being Black. Because at least in the US, plenty of African Americans or Trinidadians are what is refered to as red bone. A light brown with slightly redish tones. An example of this would be my profile picture on AW, feel free to look.

It wasn't until you described the characters heritage that Black crossed my mind.

Language is constantly evolving. We are currently at a point where there is no fixed definition of terms like "black" - and no absolute certainty about whether it is acceptable either. Different people have different views about it.

I once had a partner who came from the West Indies Asian community. She hated to be called black and would far rather than she was described as herself. If pressed to accept a label, she would opt for "person of colour" because that was what felt right to her.

And yet in this thread we have heard from people who don't like the term "person of colour".

If everyone is entitled to an opinion, then we have to accept that there are no right answers here. I think that is what causes the confusion and uncertainty for writers. We would like to be able to use an absolutely safe word, but I am not sure that one exists.

I suppose the answer is just to do our best, both in the way that we describe people and also what roles we give them in our stories. The hero doesn't always have to be a white Anglo Saxon heterosexual male, okay?

We won't always get it right. Even if we do, language will keep on shifting so that what was right in 2014 might be absolutely wrong in 2024. But if we do our best hopefully our readers will accept it.

As an aside, I get mildly annoyed when a UK census form asks me to state whether I am English or British, and I am allowed to choose only one option. Why can't I be both?

Lillith1991 said:

See, the description you gave me doesn't say black. To me the character could very well have been Indian, Thai, Cambodian, Native American, dark skinned Hispanic, or Black. Don't think dark skin is universal to being Black. Because at least in the US, plenty of African Americans or Trinidadians are what is refered to as red bone. A light brown with slightly redish tones. An example of this would be my profile picture on AW, feel free to look.

It wasn't until you described the characters heritage that Black crossed my mind.

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To be honest, that's what I want. I want to portray characters as individuals rather than as members of particular cultural groups. If their background/ethnicity is important to the story, then I can describe that without assigning a label to them. If they're a minor character, then you only really need a description of what they look like. I don't know the ethnic background of everyone I meet, but I will notice what colour skin they have, what hairstyle they have or anything striking about how they dress.

neandermagnon said:

To be honest, that's what I want. I want to portray characters as individuals rather than as members of particular cultural groups. If their background/ethnicity is important to the story, then I can describe that without assigning a label to them. If they're a minor character, then you only really need a description of what they look like. I don't know the ethnic background of everyone I meet, but I will notice what colour skin they have, what hairstyle they have or anything striking about how they dress.

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If you can't make someone an individual while still acknowledging that they're black, then something is seriously wrong. That's what diversity is, including people in works that are POC simply because such people exist not because they need a reason to exist in a story.

Lillith1991 said:

If you can't make someone an individual while still acknowledging that they're black, then something is seriously wrong. That's what diversity is, including people in works that are POC simply because such people exist not because they need a reason to exist in a story.

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This. Thank you.

Also, for anyone who thinks it's unnecessary to explicitly write that a character is "black" when s/he's meant to be, I refer you to the Omgz Rue is Black Wut doodah. With such a long history of having characters of color be whitewashed, the last thing we need is ethnicity being described subtly. Maybe in the future, when people stop defaulting to white, we can be more subtle with our character descriptions. But for now, I think diversity should be explicitly stated, because whitewashing occurs, and I am sick to death of pretending it doesn't, pretending we're "over" racism, pretending that describing someone as "dark-skinned" is going to make the average reader think anything other "tanned white person".

Just FYI, when introducing his character, Minho, in The Maze Runner, Dashner simply said, "Asian boy". It worked. There was no mention of yellow skin or almond-shaped eyes, as far as I remember. Guess wut: It was fine. Nobody said, "Omgz, you are stereotyping him!!!" Because he didn't. Minho was a pretty awesome character, fully fleshed-out, and he didn't suffer at all for being introduced, explicitly, as Asian.

neandermagnon said:

To be honest, that's what I want. I want to portray characters as individuals rather than as members of particular cultural groups. If their background/ethnicity is important to the story, then I can describe that without assigning a label to them. If they're a minor character, then you only really need a description of what they look like. I don't know the ethnic background of everyone I meet, but I will notice what colour skin they have, what hairstyle they have or anything striking about how they dress.

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Do you also neglect to mention their sex for fear of labelling them? Because that's what saying a character is Black or Latina or Korean is like. I honestly don't see how stating their ethnic background would limit you in any way, unless you like your readers not knowing anything particular about your character, including their sex, age, sexual orientation etc.

There's political correctness, and then there's not being a jerk who uses stereotypes without even thinking about them. The trouble is finding the line between the two.

Putputt said:

Do you also neglect to mention their sex for fear of labelling them? Because that's what saying a character is Black or Latina or Korean is like. I honestly don't see how stating their ethnic background would limit you in any way, unless you like your readers not knowing anything particular about your character, including their sex, age, sexual orientation etc.

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But if Neo is describing them as they are, is there any need for a label*? S/He is presenting them as a person by describing what they look like including skin colour -- so that's not hiding it either really. (presumably also including approximation of age etc. Though I'd find it hard to describe what someone's orientation looked like ) Treating the character as an individual. Which is good, surely? It's showing rather than telling -- and yes telling (labelling) has its place, but so too does showing.

It's going to be a POV thing as well. If my POV character doesn't know what ethnicity there are (beyond guessing) then they can't very well say 'He was Ethiopian' can they? Or indeed, if they don't know what anyone's orientation how can they state it?

In other words, sometimes just stating it works but that doesn't mean other, subtler, methods are Wrong, surely? Because there's always more than one way to do a thing, and not all are good, or bad.

Personally I'd rather be described in terms other than be labelled by my gender, but that's me.


*The whole Rue thing says yes there may be a need for it. But do we change our writing style to pander to people who can't see what's under their nose? *ponders*

Putputt said:

Do you also neglect to mention their sex for fear of labelling them? Because that's what saying a character is Black or Latina or Korean is like. I honestly don't see how stating their ethnic background would limit you in any way, unless you like your readers not knowing anything particular about your character, including their sex, age, sexual orientation etc.

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I don't say "she was female" or "she was a woman" because that's redundant. Pronouns tell you what gender a character is if you're writing in 3rd person. Even in first person, I wouldn't say "I am a woman" - I'd bring their gender some other way. People don't introduce themselves as "hi, I'm a woman", they'd say "Hi, I'm Tracey" (or whatever their name is). Same with sexual orientation, you don't have to say "she was homosexual", you could have her kiss her girlfriend passionately or lament about how she can't get a girlfriend and is lonely, or there are probably a lot of other ways to bring a character's sexual orientation into the narrative. And it's the same for ethnicity. And it's not for the sake of avoiding labels, it's to paint a picture of a character as an individual and a real person.

I'm not morally against the use of ethnic labels, they have their place, such as on census forms and for people who monitor statistics. My point is if you focus your description of someone on labels, such as "she was a black lesbian", it doesn't actually give very much information about them - it just puts them in a category. And I'm not saying I'd never ever ever use a label for a character, but I'd be far more likely to use them in dialogue than description, and don't see why I should use them at all, even in dialogue, if it's not directly relevant to the story.

Mr Flibble said:

It's going to be a POV thing as well. If my POV character doesn't know what ethnicity there are (beyond guessing) then they can't very well say 'He was Ethiopian' can they?

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Or if the story is an alternate-world fantasy, like what I write, then they couldn't say "She's Ethiopian" or "She's African-American", because those countries just don't exist in the story.

I mentioned my heroine's dark brown skin, curly black hair and deep brown eyes, but I didn't specifically say "black" because I thought, hopefully it's obvious the story is set in a land like Africa. As well as details of the setting, characters eat African food and have African names, so it seemed... off somehow to specifically state that the characters are black, because to them that's the default.

I don't know, if there's an organic way to work this into the story I'd take it. I just couldn't see such a way. Though there's a minor character who's white, and her pale skin/hair/eye color stands out to the black POV characters.

Marian Perera said:

Or if the story is an alternate-world fantasy, like what I write, then they couldn't say "She's Ethiopian" or "She's African-American", because those countries just don't exist in the story.

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That is, of course, another consideration.

To me it comes across as more subtle on most (not all) occasions as well. Sometimes a bald tell works though. It's going to depend on your story, your POV, your setting, your style.

But like I say, there's more than one way to go about it and not only one is the Right way imo.

Mr Flibble said:

But if Neo is describing them as they are, is there any need for a label*? S/He is presenting them as a person by describing what they look like including skin colour -- so that's not hiding it either really. (presumably also including approximation of age etc. Though I'd find it hard to describe what someone's orientation looked like ) Treating the character as an individual. Which is good, surely? It's showing rather than telling -- and yes telling (labelling) has its place, but so too does showing.

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Yes, thank you that is what I'm trying to say. Describing what they look like and how they interact with others (in the case of other details like sexual orientation) rather than just sticking a label on them.

I totally agree with the things people are saying here. We don't always know the exact place a person or their ancestors came from, but we do have words for describing people. Black, African, Asian, Middle Eastern and so on. I think it's best to use them when needed. Of course, there are differences in how different English-speaking countries describe these terms.

I understand that the UK version of Harry Potter relied more on things like Lee's dreadlocks and Cho's name to designate their ethnicity than the US version did. Still, Rowling didn't mention that Ron was white (of course, having blond or red hair tends to make people assume "white European," even though red and blond hair do exist in other parts of the world).

I write fantasy set in a secondary world, though, one that has no Asia, or Africa, or India. And some of my characters are people who resemble people from these places. Coming up with descriptions that aren't overtly racist, and also inaccurate (like "almond-shaped eyes") has taken some thought. Coming up with short (I don't tend to dwell on the minutiae of any character's facial features anyway), clear, and non-racist descriptions of facial features is defeating my skills. Because, in fact, there really isn't any one trait that defines all people from a region. People are incredibly variable wherever you go.

So I do worry that some readers will think these characters are simply white people with dark hair and a tan. One thing I do is mention the skin tone of my white characters too at some point. Olive, pale, ruddy and so on.

I try to work in (via their own pov, or the pov of the person meeting them for the first time) that they presumably have ancestry in other regions of my world from the current setting. "She had the dark brown skin and tightly-curled hair that was common in northern [insert continent name]," or "he had the amber skin, soft features, and dark hair possessed by some people from southern [insert name]."

The theme of being an outsider in my society pervades the story (every character, white or Poc, straight or LGBT, male or female etc) is an outsider in some way.

But I can't help wondering if some people won't still see the PoC characters as white. Does it matter? Probably not in terms of the plot. But as an aspect of world building, I think it does. I want readers to get a sense that there's a larger world out there, one where migration, trade and cultural exchange between different people has been going on for a while, and this has created both enrichment and friction. Some of this enrichment and friction is relevant to the plot.

And maybe it matters to some people who are just tired of everyone always defaulting to white in the majority of secondary world fantasy novels. I'm of European descent and am fascinated with European history, but even so, I was getting pretty bored with fantasy that attempted to recreate a "medieval" Europe that never was, one where everyone was white and there were no real cultural differences between people (or if they existed, they were provided by stock in trade fantasy races, like elves and so on).

Is that PC? Maybe. But for me it comes down to my writing what I'd like to read. I hope I haven't screwed up, but if I have, I'll try to learn from it.

Marian Perera said:

Or if the story is an alternate-world fantasy, like what I write, then they couldn't say "She's Ethiopian" or "She's African-American", because those countries just don't exist in the story.

I mentioned my heroine's dark brown skin, curly black hair and deep brown eyes, but I didn't specifically say "black" because I thought, hopefully it's obvious the story is set in a land like Africa. As well as details of the setting, characters eat African food and have African names, so it seemed... off somehow to specifically state that the characters are black, because to them that's the default.

I don't know, if there's an organic way to work this into the story I'd take it. I just couldn't see such a way. Though there's a minor character who's white, and her pale skin/hair/eye color stands out to the black POV characters.

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That's really interesting, because I have the same issue writing prehistoric fiction. One story I'm working on is set 40,000 years ago in Europe and the main character's tribe is one of the first Homo sapiens sapiens tribes to move into Europe from Africa, and they would most likely have looked fairly similar to modern sub-Saharan Africans.

I can't use labels like "African" "black" and so on ("African-American" would be even worse) because that would be completely anachronistic, instead I have a physical description of the members of this tribe having dark brown skin and tightly curled hair, and the reader can make the connection between them and modern Africans (or not as the case may be, because it doesn't matter either way, the description is there to show what the people looked like).