"He saw" or "He had seen"

Since you're writing in present tense, past tense ("saw") is correct for referring to something that already happened. If you were writing in past tense, then you would use past perfect ("had seen").

BethS said:

Since you're writing in present tense, past tense ("saw") is correct for referring to something that already happened. If you were writing in past tense, then you would use past perfect ("had seen").

Click to expand...

Yes. Thank you. I've seen that mistake made so many times by people writing in present tense, I was beginning to think I had it wrong.

I disagree. In the context, "he saw" just sounds like a confusion of tenses, while "he had seen" places the action squarely in time-before-the-narrative. "He had seen robins earlier; now he wishes he had seen something worth catching."

OP: You didn't imagine you were going to get just one answer to a straightforward question, did you?

benbenberi said:

I disagree. In the context, "he saw" just sounds like a confusion of tenses, while "he had seen" places the action squarely in time-before-the-narrative. "He had seen robins earlier; now he wishes he had seen something worth catching."

OP: You didn't imagine you were going to get just one answer to a straightforward question, did you?

Click to expand...

I agree with this, I think "he had seen" flows better.

And I would have written 'he'd seen' just for purposes of flow/rhythm or whatever. It just sounds better when read aloud.

Are we voting now? I mark my ballot for "he'd seen" too.

He walks to his back door, opens it, and steps onto his unstained, rotting wooden deck. As he drinks his beer, he listens to the neighborhood traffic, the only sounds on this cool, dark, spring night. He saw robins earlier as the sun set.

Click to expand...

If you're trying to imply that he had seen the Robins at sunset at some undisclosed time in the past, then "He had seen robins earlier, as the sun set." Works better for me.

Writing it "he saw the robins earlier..." makes it sound like an unintended tense shift into simple past.

I'd also use the comma to set off "as the sun set," if that's not obvious from the larger context, because it modifies what you meant by "earlier" ("as the sun set" is a dependent clause that does not change the core meaning of the sentence).

Or omit the "earlier" (if the context already makes it clear that he's sitting on the deck after sunset).

Then I'd write:
As he drinks his beer, he listens to the neighborhood traffic, the only sounds on this cool, dark, spring night. He had seen robins as the sun set.

He saw robins is just tense confusion. Whether you're writing in present or past tense, robins seen earlier in the day would be He had seen robins, or for better flow, He'd seen robins.

benbenberi said:

I disagree. In the context, "he saw" just sounds like a confusion of tenses, while "he had seen" places the action squarely in time-before-the-narrative. "He had seen robins earlier; now he wishes he had seen something worth catching."

OP: You didn't imagine you were going to get just one answer to a straightforward question, did you?

Click to expand...

Reziac said:

He saw robins is just tense confusion. Whether you're writing in present or past tense, robins seen earlier in the day would be He had seen robins, or for better flow, He'd seen robins.

Click to expand...

This is a sticky one. I agree that "he saw" looks like tense confusion. Though grammarians might disagree, I would probably go with "he had seen..."

However, it occurred to me that a reconstruction of the third sentence might work with the simple past:

"He walks to his back door, opens it, and steps onto his unstained, rotting wooden deck. As he drinks his beer, he listens to the neighborhood traffic, the only sounds on this cool, dark, spring night. Earlier, he saw robins as the sun set."

Grammatically, you should use "he saw." But there's the potential tense confusion issue, which would make "he had seen" a better choice.

This is one of the biggest reasons I don't write in present tense. On the one hand, you might have confusion. On the other, "he had seen" is jarring to me as a reader. I'm thinking, What happened to the simple past?

Both are correct depending on the word 'earlier'. If you use 'he had seen', you need to remove 'earlier', because now it is a redundancy. If you use 'he saw', then 'earlier' specifies that we are not tense hopping.

In addition, you should change beer to Budweiser so we know who you're talkin' about.

Cast your votes.

If we're voting, I'm going with Reziac's 'he'd seen.'

CathleenT said:

If we're voting, I'm going with Reziac's 'he'd seen.'

Click to expand...

I think that depends on the diction of the piece overall. "He'd seen" fits well if the narration is informal/casual and uses contractions throughout. If not, stick with "he had seen."

"He saw robins earlier as the sun set."

Saw is correct here, because it refers to a specific time in the past, in this case, "as the sun set." "Had seen" would be correct if that time in the past was unspecific. For example, "He had seen robins before."

"Saw" is the simple past of "see." The action happened at a specific time in the past and is over and done with. “Seen” is the past participle. The participle verb form connects the past to the present. The action happened sometime in the past up through the present. Note the difference:

I saw the movie yesterday. (a specific time)
I had seen the movie before. (an unspecified time)

----

I'd like to add that "as the sun set" is a very specific moment. Did the narrator see the robins only at that specific moment? Probably not. With that in mind, I would go with something like:

Earlier, while the sun was setting, he saw robins.

But even that seems incomplete. Maybe more info could be supplied. Something like:

Earlier, while the sun was setting, he saw robins flitting from tree to tree, but they were gone now.

Good info here, nothing better than an active board full of astute members willing to give of themselves. Thank you, questioners as well, for these thought-provoking inquiries!

As for the OP's dilemma, does the passage require either version? For the sake of clarity, why not do as others suggested and reword it to begin with "Earlier ..." except leave out the filtering phrase "he saw/had seen" and show the birds in the setting sun?

Aside from the grammar issue, there's a lot of filtering going on in the example sentences. That in itself may be contributing to the grammatical imprecision.

caw

PowerWriter said:

He walks to his back door, opens it, and steps onto his unstained, rotting wooden deck. As he drinks his beer, he listens to the neighborhood traffic, the only sounds on this cool, dark, spring night. He saw robins earlier as the sun set.

Click to expand...

Past perfect "had seen" is made superfluous by "earlier." Simple past "was" works fine in such a case. However, removing filters and staying in present tense will make past vs. past perfect moot:

He walks through his back door onto his unstained, rotting wooden deck. Robins fly past the setting sun. As he drinks his beer, neighborhood traffic lends the only sounds to this cool night.

Chase said:

Robins fly past the setting sun.

Click to expand...

That changes the time he steps outside. It's already night. The robins aren't flying now, they flew earlier.

My initial reaction was "he saw" but the more I think about it and read the other arguments, I think "he had seen" flows better.

Carrie in PA said:

That changes the time he steps outside. It's already night. The robins aren't flying now, they flew earlier.

My initial reaction was "he saw" but the more I think about it and read the other arguments, I think "he had seen" flows better.

Click to expand...

Yes. You're right, except for the unfortunate over-thinking:
First he steps out. Then, he sees the birds at sunset. Then, it gets dark.

My arrangement of details merely follows the original timeline without having to go back to an earlier scene with "had seen," regardless of how much better (or worse) it makes the flashback flow.

I'm thinking you could make the sentence present tense to match the others:

He remembers seeing robins earlier as the sun set.

Click to expand...

Or maybe this, but it seems a little clunky and not quite right:

He remembers having seen robins earlier as the sun set.

Click to expand...

I would say "He saw robins..." because you do not mention what he is seeing now. If you wrote, "He looks out at the empty road, imagining how it will be in a few hours." then mention seeing the robins earlier, I now say "had seen". Hope this doesn't add to the confusion.

K.S. Crooks said:

I would say "He saw robins..."

Click to expand...

"He saw blacbirds . . ."

Editorially corrected for improvement.

caw

I am by no means a great writer, in fact I'm just starting out. So please take my suggestions with a pinch of salt.

PowerWriter said:

He walks to his back door, opens it, and steps onto his unstained, rotting wooden deck. As he drinks his beer, he listens to the neighborhood traffic, the only sounds on this cool, dark, spring night. He saw robins earlier as the sun set.

Click to expand...

When I read you passage I noticed there was one to many 'his' in there which (to me) unbalanced every other usage of it.

He walks to his back door, opens it, and steps onto his the unstained, rotting wooden deck. As he drinks his beer, he listens to the neighborhood traffic, the only sounds on this cool, dark, spring night. He saw robins earlier as the sun set.His mind replayed the evenings sunset and his chance sighting of robins.

OR

The enveloping night now hid the robins he'd seen at sunset.

One thing I've had to learn as a writer is that sometimes the words you write aren't as important to the story as they are to you. What I'm trying to say is that although you may like that particular line about robins is it the right one or does it even need to be there at all. Hence a couple of alternative lines you can use that still get to the same place.

I know it doesn't directly answer the question you asked but hopefully it might give you some additional thoughts. Hope it helps.