The viability of villain protagonists in YA?

Funny, I just decided I wanted to write an anti-villain story myself just a few days ago (though he's not really the full protagonist. He'll have a POV in it I think though)

I'll definitely have to pick up Viscous. Fun discussion

Nogetsune said:

I want to know, do you here all think there is room in YA for self-serving, and/or outright villainous protagonists?

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Yes. Yes. and YES!!!

Please give us these stories! Light Yagami was and still is one of my most favorite protagonists. And the battle between he and "L" is frankly one of the most awesome I can remember. There is plenty of room in the YA genre for villainous protagonists! In fact, I daresay this kind of thing will be a much needed breath of fresh air in the genre.

Speaking only for myself, I would totally give a book like this a shot. And I don't see it being any more difficult than writing any other protagonist.

Good luck with it!

Can it be done, I'm sure it can, but the issue ultimately comes up of getting the readers invested in the story and in the characters. If they are more invested in the antagonists, the only outcome that will satisfy them is one where the antagonists win.

I'm not opposed to a story about a villian, but from various games I've played that allow you to choose a path toward doing good things vs. evil things, the evil endings always felt hollow (even when it was the end I was shooting for). Also, I've noticed doing those bad things is a lot less fun when nobody's around to watch (like throwing the villagers into the volcano etc.) which might be in part because taking the moraly good path is harder.

Okay, so I'm coming back from this after reading an interesting article (I think it was on the New York Times website, but I've lost it, so). Apparently, having money makes you less empathetic toward other people. Not malicious or uncaring, just less attuned. They also talked about the possibility that people who are disagreeable will tend to earn more than agreeable people. I don't know if the science behind it is sound, but I thought it might help in characterizing certain villains, like the kind Nogetsune writes.

Another problem is that villain protagonists can become stale and lose their viability faster than classic heroes of the romantic or action movie stripe. If heroes that fans would find genuinely likable and for whom fans can root for their success with good conscience get uninteresting, wouldn't that process happen even faster for genuinely unlikable protagonists, the kind that fans would not want to make an effort to identify with? The only way to lessen that decline would be to make sure the villain protagonists fail spectacularly and have tragic endings the majority of the time. And even that could get uninteresting fast as I am unsure that fans will want books, movies and tv shows centered around tragedies on a regular basis.

Nogetsune said:

I want to know, do you here all think there is room in YA for self-serving, and/or outright villainous protagonists? Do you think a story following a character resembling what somebody like President Snow or any other tyrant or dictator was as a teenager on their way up the latter of power has a place in YA? What about those extremist types? Or maybe even a teenage mad scientist? Is there a place in YA for self-serving or extremely misguided protagonists?

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I think there is absolutely room for these types of characters in YA. I believe that the only thing that may be limiting is how far you may be able to go with their extremism, just because of the nature of the audience.

One example that comes immediately to mind is Artemis Fowl (the first novel, not the series as a whole). In the first book at least, he was self-serving, cunning, and misguided. And he was the protagonist as well. Granted, throughout the series he became less and less a villian and more an outright hero, but I think the first book illustrates that it is possible to create a villian protagonist in YA.

Also, to see a villian protagonist that doesn't become a hero as the story progresses would be interesting to read.

Many of the characters I've enjoyed both in literature and film have been complete jerks. However, all of them have given me some reason to root for them, usually early on. It could be a clever voice, a rough past, or a goal I can sympathize with.

If a character has absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever, I tend to move on. I am, of course, only one reader and my version of "redeeming" could be way different from someone else's.

I don't think having a selfish protag isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are a couple things to consider, though:

1) You don't want any MC to be completely one-dimensional. This is true for any type of protagonist. This is the sort of instance where first person narration would work well, because you could show there's more going on under the surface, there are layers to the MC. Where everyone else sees purely selfish intentions and actions, the reader needs to see the cogs beneath that facade. Any villain needs to be multi-dimensional, but if the villain is the protag, then, I think, even more so.

2) You'd have to figure out how to get readers invested. Why would a reader want to stick in there for this character's story? Why would they care what happens to them? It can be done, and well--look at Frank Underwood in House of Cards--but it's tricky. Again, you have to have some redeeming characteristics. Like with Frank, he got screwed over at the start, so viewers can kind of see where he's coming from. He has some people he actually cares for, so you see a glimmer of humanity underneath it all. He's going against some people who are worse than he is, so you root for him to triumph over them. He's interesting. His narration and motives are intriguing, so you stick with the story to find out where it goes.

3) They don't have to be likable, but the reader still has to want to spend however many pages with them. The reader can't just hate them. I haven't read Game of Thrones because everyone talks about how horrible Sansa Starks' POV chapters are. I don't like her on the show, so I don't want to spend time in her head reading her story. On the other hand, Draco Malfoy isn't a likeable character, but the chapters of HP that dealt with him were interesting. I wanted to know what happened. Walter White isn't likeable, neither is Don Draper, or again, Frank Underwood. They do bad things, but they're not insufferable. That's a fine line.

I think it can work, but only if it's done very well.

Sure, it could work.

As I see it, it's not so much a "can I do this in YA" as it is "will YA readers read this" problem. Books are different from TV shows because the reader spends time in the main character's head -- this could be why there are so many villain protagonists in tv/movies but so few in books. A lot of readers will give up on a book if the protag is unlikable. Not if the protag is a bad person. If the protag is unlikable. That's how you can get it to work.

Edit: ninja'd. I should clarify that I'm using "unlikable" where Stiger is using "insufferable".

I wouldn't read it, but some readers would. If it's done well, readers who are into that type of thing will love it.

As mentioned by the previous posters, sure, it can work. Pretty sure if there's a whole anime featuring Izaya Orihara as the protagonist, most Durarara!! fans will wallop it up.

And +1 to it being more of a reader-thing. I, for one, don't need redeeming qualities in a character to like them. Or some tragic backstory to explain their current evilness. I just need them to be interesting as hell. Keep me entertained, and I'm sold.

ETA: Of course, what entertains me is a whole other can of worms...

Hmm I think Breathing Underwater by Alex Flinn had a likable protagonist even though you know from the get-go there's something wrong with him, since he gets a restraining order at the start... But by the time I got to find out what actually happened (which is messed up), I just couldn't help but still like him. So yes, it can work. It's just the execution... And your readers.

RLim29 said:

As mentioned by the previous posters, sure, it can work. Pretty sure if there's a whole anime featuring Izaya Orihara as the protagonist, most Durarara!! fans will wallop it up.

And +1 to it being more of a reader-thing. I, for one, don't need redeeming qualities in a character to like them. Or some tragic backstory to explain their current evilness. I just need them to be interesting as hell. Keep me entertained, and I'm sold.

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Thirding this, that it's a reader thing, and adding in another book example I thought about.

Hannibal Lecter is the quintessential villain, but I gobbled up HANNIBAL RISING. Partly, because I already knew the story of the cannibalistic serial killer, and partly because finding out what made him so evil was just so compelling. If you haven't read it, and are debating whether to write from a selfish/villainous POV, I highly recommend giving it a look first.

Yes, it is still okay for me. It just needs to be interesting. Even if I do end up hating the character, that's fine for me (and it's also good, because the worst IMO is having a reader not giving a shit about the character at all). I can still like the story, and be glad of the experience I've gotten from reading it. So long it's well-written, thoroughly thought through, stakes are high relative to the character's goal, the characters are all fleshed out, I'm all for horrible, selfish characters.

What makes me put down a book are more so about things like the writing, characters TSTL, flat characters, writer's laziness, too little conflict happening, not enough/not high enough stakes...etc. etc.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of completely self-absorbed, selfish characters, whether that be the protagonist or just a supporting character. However, I can deal with a character like that if they have a reason for being like that and aren't completely superficial (aren't Mean Girls-esque), or make you want to root for them. But I do think it could make for an interesting story to write in a self-centered POV!

I think all readers have a different preference, though, so I wouldn't worry too much about it, as long as it works for you personally Readers want to root for the main character, so if you can pull that off while having them be self-centered, than by all means go for it!!!

Even with the further explanation, I stand by my comments.

Again, see Frank Underwood. If you're not familiar, the entire premise of House of Cards is he was passed over for a position he was promised. The rest of the show is all about his own personal, political gain. Ruining the careers and lives of other people--who happen to be in his way, or who are merely pawns to get his way. He has bonds. He's cares about his wife, about his head staffer, about a guy who cooks him ribs, about his security detail. But other than that he is entirely and thoroughly selfish. He wants to be President. Not to make the world better, but because he wants it, he wants his name in history, his picture on walls, for others to respect and fear him. But most viewers still root for him, and the reason is solid writing.

Also, it doesn't sound like your familiar with Hannibal Lecter because your description was very one-note when in reality he's quite a complex character. He's not a psychopath, everything he does is for selfish reasons. He doesn't murder and eat people because he's crazy. He toys with his victims because he's curious. He wants to see how their brains work, what he can get them to do, how he can manipulate their behaviors. None of it is for their own good, or for some contribution to science or medicine, and it's not because he's insane. It's all to satisfy his curiosity and for his own morbid, selfish enjoyment. However, he has bonds too. He cares about his sister who died, he cares for Clarice Starling, in the show he cares about a girl who reminds him of his sister, and about consultant Will Graham, and fellow psychiatrist Alana Bloom. He still craves relationships, but only on his terms.

If you want another example, see Patrick Bateman in American Psycho.

These characters are multi-faceted and complex, and yes, real. That's what makes them interesting and makes viewers/readers want to stick with them.

Contrast them with a character like Joffrey Baratheon, who is simply evil and selfish and, in my opinion, not very complex. I couldn't get past two pages in his head.

All that to say, I stand by my first comment. Regardless of the characteristics, most readers will engage if the character is three-dimensional, if you give them a reason to be invested in the character/outcome, and if you don't make them hate the character a la Joffrey.

Good luck writing.

Evil protagonists, or just jerk protagonists, only work if they have reader empathy. There must be a reason for the evil or jerkiness, and readers have to be able to say, "In his place, I might well be the same way, or do the same thing."

We all root for Dexter, and even for Hannibal Lector, at some level because we have empathy for them. It's who they kill, and why they kill. If either of them randomly murdered an eight year old girl, it would be all over.

The same is true for selfishness. There needs to be an understandable reason for it, and we have to be able to say that in his place, with his reasons, we might well be just as selfish.

I'm fine with characters who are selfish.

Whiny and self-pitying, however, I dislike enough in real life, never mind fiction.

I'd like a counter view-point so it didn't get too intense. Though you can probably get away with anything if it's well written!

Nogetsune said:

Thanks for all the advice, though I can't tell from your responses whether or not an extremely selfish character would be ok....

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Of course it's okay. Everything is okay. (And awesome! ...ahem.) The question is whether anyone wants to read about the corrupt CEO if said CEO doesn't get redeemed or brought down or whatever by the end. What's happening to this person that makes an interesting story?

It's not a matter of demonstrating morals for youth. It's about keeping them interested.

I think it hasn't yet been mentioned here: a new series by a bestselling YA author will have a female villain protagonist. YOUNG ELITES, a YA secondary world fantasy in which the main character is described as "a teenage female version of Magneto and Darth Vader."