The viability of villain protagonists in YA?

Nogetsune

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Can an "evil 1%er" be sympathetic? (Or which way should I run this character?)

As the title asks. I have a character I love and who I want to write. Originally, they where designed to be a totally unsympathetic villain in their respective universe who's sole purpose was to make the lives of countless other characters hell. However, the better I got to know them, the more they wanted me to know they where not what I designed them to be, and demanded(very loudly, I may add) that I find a story about them that I can tell. However, the issue is that they are a character that, depending on how I write them and who's reading, they could be sympathetic or unsympathetic and thus I am unsure which way I should run them.

They have two sides to them, a very selfish side that people are likely to hate, but also a very human, dare I say sympathetic side underneath it all. While I want to show their sympathetic side, the issue I am having is that I fear the nature of their unsympathetic parts may strike too many negative chords with modern readers and that they may still come off as unsympathetic despite the fact I try my hardest to show them otherwise. The reason? Despite their sympathetic points, they are essentially a fantasy equivalent of the single most hated group(and for a legitimate reason, I may add) of many, many modern Americans....the "greedy 1%er." I personally feel their human side is sympathetic enough where I could run them as a character readers can at least have some positives they find in them, and perhaps even relate to despite the fact their situation and outlook would be very foreign to a lot of readers. However, at the same time, due to the (partly well-deserved) hate for anybody in the 1%, I am not sure that readers would be able to look past that side of them and see who they really are beneath it all.

So, I am at a crossroads. I can either try to do the impossible, and make readers empathize a bit with the "evil 1%er" or I can go the other route and make them a flat out villain protagonist who, while still understandable and "relateable" in why they do what they do, is not somebody the reader empathizes with and follows because they want to see fail, find them interesting if alien, and/or just because they have a dark charisma about them(Kinda like Richard III, Frank Underwood or Humbert Humbert.) So my question is which way should I go? Do you think it would be possible to run a "1%er" type character as at least somewhat sympathetic, or is the world just to liberal for that and would it be better to play up the whole "villain protagonist" concept with them? Discuss.
 
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KateSmash

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Just write it. There's no point in worrying about something that doesn't exist on paper yet. Go with your gut, challenge yourself, then decide later.

Then, after all that, get some beta readers and see what they say.
 

Kayley

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I agree with Kate. Any character can be sympathetic depending on how you write them, so just write. Once you're done, your beta readers can tell you whether it seems realistic or not. Furthermore, I think assuming all people view 1%ers as villains is a bit misguided, because there are plenty of good 1%ers such as Bill Gates and Warren Buffet who can certainly be sympathetic.
 

Nogetsune

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I suppose your right... I worry too much. It's one of my biggest flaws as a person... But enough about my flaws... I suppose your all right and I should just write and run it passed beta readers for advice...
 

BBBurke

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Ultimately what matters more if he or she is interesting.

This. If you have someone who does really bad things, giving them lots of layers, a backstory that explains how they ended up that way, and a goal that's understandable, doesn't necessarily make them sympathetic. But it goes a long way to making them interesting. It's not about justifying the evil, but explaining it.
 

rwm4768

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How much time do you spend in this character's point of view?
 

rwm4768

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Ultimately what matters more if he or she is interesting.

Not necessarily. Many readers read to feel a sympathetic tie with the characters. It doesn't matter how interesting the character is, for some readers, if you can't find something redeeming and sympathetic in that character.

Of course, this is more for characters who get extensive time in their points of view.
 

kuwisdelu

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Not necessarily. Many readers read to feel a sympathetic tie with the characters. It doesn't matter how interesting the character is, for some readers, if you can't find something redeeming and sympathetic in that character.

Sure, but I'd bet fewer readers would read boring character.
 

SBibb

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Sympathetic villains can be really interesting to read, and they can also raise the stakes for the protagonist, because you now understand why your villain acts the way they do. They have their own story to tell, and even if you don't see it directly, you can see it in their actions.

Whether they come off as sympathetic or not may vary, but you'll have a more fleshed out character in the long run if you know why they act the way they do.

Write the story as you wish, but you can certainly keep in mind what makes them sympathetic. It could work quite nicely to surprise the readers (hopefully in a good way), when they don't always act in the "evil" way they're expected.
 

rwm4768

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Sure, but I'd bet fewer readers would read boring character.

I never said anything about making the character boring. You can create entirely sympathetic characters who are also very interesting.

I'm just saying that a character who is only interesting (and not sympathetic at all) will turn off many readers, if that character gets a lot of point of view time.
 

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As requested before, Nogetsune, please keep your questions about the viability of your villain protagonist to this thread.
 

Nogetsune

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I would ideally have them as the main protagonist, rwm. However the issue is not that they are unsympathetic... I find that they are certainly sympathetic... The issue is that that they belong to a group that is universally hated by most people now a days. In fact part of my desire to write them stems from a want to show that "super-rich people have a human side too.." Yet I fear that due to the rampant class warfare that pervades our culture these days that readers will find it impossible to get behind a 1%er who is anything less then an over-the-top-charitable social justice warrior or straight up superhero like batman or ironman. No matter how sympathetic I make them or how human they are. However... I could be over-estimating people's hatred for the rich... And if you think I am I'd like to know.
 
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lenore_x

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I think you are overestimating people's hatred for the rich. And I say this as a very bitter poor person. :tongue

I'm getting a pretty clear message from most of the replies in these various merged threads, and it is: just TRY it. There isn't a law. Nobody can say for sure until you've written something and shared it. If it doesn't work you can fix it later.

Seriously, go, try it.
 

RaggedEdge

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However... I could be over-estimating people's hatred for the rich... And if you think I am I'd like to know.

I think you are overestimating it. First, people will always be fascinated with the rich, love 'em or hate 'em. Second, keep in mind teen readers of today, and more to the point, 2-3 years hence (the soonest any book written now would be published) weren't necessarily paying much attention to the financial fallout of 2008 or even the Occupy Wall Street movement. This will be new territory to many of them.

I think your bigger concern should be how to give your story an arc. Something has to shift and change and surprise the character, as well as the reader. Within this thread you seem to have changed from wanting to write a main character without sympathetic qualities to writing one with sympathetic qualities. I agree with that change. The only way to make this into a story - that is, give it an arc with conflict and change - is that, at the very least, he either starts out sympathetic or ends sympathetic. Either way you have to go there.

Ultimately, yes, I think an interesting story can be told about a 1%er teen with reprehensible qualities who does terrible things and goes through complex shifts. It sounds like an excellent challenge. Good luck!
 

bickazer

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You need to read more YA. I'm pretty sure books about rich kids far outnumber books about poor kids. I don't consider this a good thing per se but it does mean your worries are all for naught. The fact that your character is rich will probably just make them more appealing to your average teen reader tbh.
 

Nogetsune

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Where is the YA Walter White? Oh, he's in a manga!...Or rather a question of demographics...

Between my thread about Villain Protagonists in YA a while back, and the recent thread about Teen Antagonists in YA, something interesting crossed my mind and I thought I'd make a thread to discuss it....the seeming lack of "Walter Whites" in YA lit. Villainous, or at least morally-questionable protagonists seem to be "in vogue" in more visual media, including adult lit, as of late. Between the sucssess of shows like Breaking Bad and House of cards which are focused around total scoundrels, films like malificent that portray the classical villain in a sympathetic light and anime/mangas like Deathnote, which would probally be classes as YA if where in book form as appose to being a manga, villain protagonists seem to resonate with consumers of more...visual...media. Yet, when it comes to YA, we have yet to really see any "stand out" villain protagonists like Walter White, Frank Underwood or Light Yagami.

While I know of at least two attempts in YA to try the whole "villain protagonist" kind of thing, thats the limits of what I know. Two characters, one of whom ends up becoming a hero after his first book, no less. Is the lack of stand-out villain protagonists in YA, and indeed villain protagonists in general because of the YA readerbase?

I mean, House of Cards and Breaking Bad are not specifically aimed at teens. Teens may watch them, but they are adult dramas, aimed and marketed at adults. Even further, while anime and manga may be popular with teens and I have no doubt some teenage anime fans also read YA, there are plenty of anime fans who don't really read normal books unless the're required to, especially in the teen demographic. I should know, because in high school, that was me. I read a lot, but what I read was primarily non-fiction. The only "fiction" I read voraciously in my HS years was manga. I would maybe read the odd magic the gathering, Halo, or Dungeons and Dragons novel once in a blue moon, and had been into Harry Potter since before I was even in HS due to the fact it was such a phenomenon when it came out, but other then that my fiction reading was pretty much exclusively manga when I was a teen. So seeing this, the same demographic that made Deathnote a success is a different demographic then the one that reads YA, despite the fact their may be some overlap between the two.

This leads me to ask, is the reason that you don't see more "YA Walter Whites" because the demographic that reads YA is not "interested" in such characters? Discuss away, and possibly discuss other things related to interesting things you've noticed about the YA-consuming demographic!
 
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Sage

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Thread about villainous protagonist merged with previous thread.
 

Samsonet

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Because people seem to think YA = highschool romance? Because people don't want to think that teenagers could be amoral or evil? Because everyone who's writing a villain protag is writing adult fiction?

My bet is #1, but who knows?

Edit: Also, as someone in the YA demographic, I cannot stand villain protags. I prefer my heroes to be basically good. There are enough people bragging over their jerkishness in real life. I don't want to claim that most YA readers are like me, but that may have something to do with it.
 
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Sage

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Quoting myself because I think it responds to the newest post:
I love me a good villain protagonist (I'm pretty sure there's at least 1, maybe 2 oxymorons in that sentence ;) ). I haven't seen many in YA, or maybe not any except possibly Kelley York's Hushed, which I haven't read yet. In MG, however, I know there are the Artemis Fowl books, so there shouldn't be any reason why it can't be done in YA.

I have a novel that's split between the hero and the villain's POV, both working as protagonists and as antagonists for each other. While betas seemed to like my villain, he was the cause of rejection for at least a few agents. I can't say whether that's the personality or they didn't think they could sell a villain MC.

And because I am currently writing a sequel to the original novel with a specific focus on the villain character.

I also know of the HIVE series, which is set in a supervillain school. Someone just classified it as YA that I saw, but I thought they were MG, and I haven't read them, so I don't know if there's an attempt to be heroes at any point. V is for Villain is another one that's either MG or young YA.
 

what?

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pure of heart characters just bore me.
Villains just bore me.

The most difficult task for any writer is writing a pure of heart character that is interesting. Writing a villain who can basically do whatever pleases the author is cheap. It is the lazy author's way of entertainment.

If you manage to write a book about a good person leading a good life and the story ending with a happy end and still create roller-coaster suspense, then you are a master.
 

Bufkus

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Villains just bore me.

The most difficult task for any writer is writing a pure of heart character that is interesting. Writing a villain who can basically do whatever pleases the author is cheap. It is the lazy author's way of entertainment.

If you manage to write a book about a good person leading a good life and the story ending with a happy end and still create roller-coaster suspense, then you are a master.

That just seems like a very black and white way to view villains and heroes.

What about Hamlet? He's probably the most literary example of a villain protagonist? Not every villain just wants to rule the world, they might just be normal people who end up down the wrong path.

IMO villain protagonists work best if you're writing a tragedy, otherwise, it'll probably not work.
 

Samsonet

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We probably need a definition of "villain protagonist". I'm using the one I think Nogetsune mentioned earlier -- someone totally selfish, out for money and power, who doesn't change -- as opposed to someone like Megamind, who's still basically good despite being a supervillain, or people who change for better or worse over the course of the story.
 

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Pure pure evil MCs are just as boring as pure pure good characters. Disney's Snow White is the most boring protagonist in all of Disney movies. Your characters should have layers, and those layers should make them interesting people. And by layers, I mean more than a pure evil character who loves puppies, but that the characters should have desires and needs and obstacles, and we have to be able to root for them, even if they're employing villainous means to meet those goals.
 

what?

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IMO villain protagonists work best if you're writing a tragedy, otherwise, it'll probably not work.
No.
Tragedy (i.e. bad ending) = protagonist fails at self-insight and therefore cannot reach his or her goals.
A villain can also learn and grow and come to a happy end.

(Note that "tragedy" in antique drama theory has nothing to do with what we understand as tragic today. A tragedy was a story about how a "hero" attempted to avoid his fate and how the gods made sure that he got it even worse.)