Lieing to your reader...is it ok?

Nogetsune · Jul 25, 2014

As the title asks. I have a story I am thinking about writing, but it features a very strange setup/scenario. Basicly, through most of the story, there is two protagonists that are followed. One of them is a member of the other's traveling party and the one providing them with resources. Throughout most of the story, they are portrayed as being ecccentric and a bit -unstable-, but ultimatly a sympathetic individual who has actual concern for the other POV character and is one of their friends....they are also built up as a -possible- love intrest, and as stated are one of two primary POV characters for the first book and a major POV character for much of the second.

However, the character you get for them through all of book I and much of book II is a total and utter lie, that this character has told the other POV character, but also the reader. In reality, their true character is that of the true main villain of the story. They have been traveling with the other protagonist the whole time in an effort to manipulate them and shape events, and have simultaneously been manipulating the primary antagonist of book I-part I of book II(who eventually replaces this character as secondary protagonist and starts getting POV chapters as early as book II.). Now, there are hints of this character's true nature, but they are SO subtle that the big reveal of them as the true main villain in the climax of the second book would seem like it came, well, out of the blue until said character explains their string of manipulations and puts a logical picture together for the reader and they can, in hindsight, see the very vague hints that where there.

However, I want to know, is it -ok- to lie to your reader to a degree as extreme as this? I would appreciate any thoughts/opinions on this.

Sage · Jul 25, 2014

Lying to your reader is okay, as long as there's an explanation for it. By that I mean, that if you're in first person or close third, wouldn't your POV character know that he was plotting dastardly deeds? Why would he hide those thoughts from himself? The closest I've ever come to throwing a book across the room was when a first-person POV revealed in his last chapter that he had done the very thing he had been "investigating" the whole time, but with chapters of him trying to figure it out. Other books have had clearly unreliable narrators, and managed to satisfy me in their lies. Yet others have given me a reason for why they lied in their narrative that I was able to accept. But it's tricky. Even with a known unreliable narrator or one I've seen in a series hold back info multiple times, I can get annoyed. People will say, blah blah, suspense and not revealing plans that actually work before they're enacted, but it has to be done right.

The other thing to think about, you're looking ahead to the middle of book 2, but what about book 1? Because book 1 is the one you have to sell.

Osulagh · Jul 25, 2014

Sage said:
Book 1 is the one you have to sell.

This, this, this.

It ultimately depends on a lot of things, and the only way you'll be able to do it or not is when you receive feedback from beta-readers. So, finish writing it the way you wish, then return later if there's problems.

I say, that's quite a lot of work for a twist that may or may not come off as surprising. I think it'll be cooler to see a story plain told by the villain from the start--with strong, rational motivation--than having some twist thrown at me later on.

Justin K · Jul 25, 2014

Ben lies to Luke in the whole first movie about the identity of his antagonist, it worked.

Sage · Jul 26, 2014

Justin K said:
Ben lies to Luke in the whole first movie about the identity of his antagonist, it worked.

But Ben is not the protagonist, nor are we reading his POV. This is much easier to do in a movie, and in a book is easier to do for a non-POV character.

Ride the Pen · Jul 26, 2014

Sounds like a tricky thing to do! Several thoughts come to my mind:

You have to pull this off really well or it will end badly. Like you said yourself, you have to give little hints beforehand and always keep the balance between the reader knowing what you are up to and the reader feeling betrayed by some unrealistic outcome because it's not the "same character" before and after the revelation.

Also, the question about the reader's sympathies comes to mind - is your "villian" character portrayed as likeable beforehand? In that case, the "betrayal" of the reader would be an even bigger one, probably too big. The risk of the reader just feeling disappointed after finishing reading would be too big - like when a person you have spent a lot of time with and you got to like turns out to have worked against you behind your back! The reader might leave the story unsatisfied and disappointed in that case.

On the other hand, having a POV character that is not too likable (you said he was "sympathetic") might not really make the reader interested enough in the character to follow him. So this would be another balancing-act you have to commit.

On the other hand, if the character is not very likable from the beginning and you have the skills to do this well, then I say go for it! Sounds like an original concept.

Another question: How much do you want the reader to anticipate/expect the outcome? I say, give him a fair chance of realizing earlier in the story (with that chance growing, as the story progresses), and he will feel a lot less betrayed! It's all about "reader-fairness" (I just coined that term).

Obviously, I'm thinking ahead here and thinking of book two already.

Hope this helps!

eparadysz · Jul 26, 2014

I'll add to the above that there is no single "reader". If you plant any hints at all, someone will figure it out long before your reveal. (I don't usually, but I figured out The Sixth Sense very early in the film - I didn't even think that was the big twist because it was so freaking obvious.) If you plant no hints, most readers will probably be annoyed. So I think the story has to be strong enough to work whether the reader knows what's going on or not. In other words, the whole worth of the story can't be riding on that one twist.

As an example of a POV character hiding something significant, have you read EVERNIGHT? I knew the twist before I read it, so I rolled my eyes a bit at the gimmick. But again, there was more to the story than the twist.

mirandashell · Jul 26, 2014

Agatha Christie did it with the POV character.

Gone Girl is basically a lie from two different directions.

Emmet Cameron · Jul 26, 2014

Read:
The Long Secret
Fingersmith

Jamesaritchie · Jul 26, 2014

Justin K said:
Ben lies to Luke in the whole first movie about the identity of his antagonist, it worked.

Just as Sage said, Ben is not the protagonist. Would it have worked had Luke lied about something important?
And Ben was lying to Luke, not to the reader. Characters often lie to teh protagonist. If not, mystery novels wouldn't exist.

Though in a very real way, I don't think Ben ever lied, either. He said Luke's father was dead, and as far as he was concerned, this was true.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 26, 2014

One character can lie to another character, but lying to the reader is is usually a very bad thing. You can find an excuse, a way of writing, to withhold information from the reader, but actually lying is pretty hard to pull off.

But, as they say, all things yield to treatment, and all this is just academic speculation until after you write the novel.

JustSarah · Jul 26, 2014

I had to resist the joke, "that my friend, is called fiction." But seriously I devour that kind of fiction.

mellymel · Jul 26, 2014

Dangerous Girls did this. Completely lied to the other characters AND the reader. I LOVED the book until the very, very end. Luckily, I loved the rest of the book so much that I just can't hate it, but honestly, it didn't make sense because we were in her POV the whole time, so I really felt cheated and lied to for the benefit of the BIG PLOT TWIST/REVEAL and it annoyed the hell out of me. So yeah, for me, I'd be annoyed (especially if, as Sage said, it's written in FPPOV or even a close third).

mellymel · Jul 26, 2014

Jamesaritchie said:
Though in a very real way, I don't think Ben ever lied, either. He said Luke's father was dead, and as far as he was concerned, this was true.

This is true. Until he came back to life right at the very end and then died again.

Dana_Queen · Jul 26, 2014

Nogetsune said:
As the title asks. I have a story I am thinking about writing, but it features a very strange setup/scenario. Basicly, through most of the story, there is two protagonists that are followed. One of them is a member of the other's traveling party and the one providing them with resources. Throughout most of the story, they are portrayed as being ecccentric and a bit -unstable-, but ultimatly a sympathetic individual who has actual concern for the other POV character and is one of their friends....they are also built up as a -possible- love intrest, and as stated are one of two primary POV characters for the first book and a major POV character for much of the second.

However, the character you get for them through all of book I and much of book II is a total and utter lie, that this character has told the other POV character, but also the reader. In reality, their true character is that of the true main villain of the story. They have been traveling with the other protagonist the whole time in an effort to manipulate them and shape events, and have simultaneously been manipulating the primary antagonist of book I-part I of book II(who eventually replaces this character as secondary protagonist and starts getting POV chapters as early as book II.). Now, there are hints of this character's true nature, but they are SO subtle that the big reveal of them as the true main villain in the climax of the second book would seem like it came, well, out of the blue until said character explains their string of manipulations and puts a logical picture together for the reader and they can, in hindsight, see the very vague hints that where there.

However, I want to know, is it -ok- to lie to your reader to a degree as extreme as this? I would appreciate any thoughts/opinions on this.

If you have a strong literary history and can cull a rouse like Agatha Christie, then have at it. If you are a debut author with developing skills tread lightly.

To publishers, an over-complicated first manuscript (if in review is captured as not well executed) is a slush pile's friend. The same is true for readers.

Especially, if it is a rouse for the sake of one.

~Q.

mrsmig · Jul 26, 2014

Dana_Queen said:
If you have a strong literary history and can cull a rouse like Agatha Christie, then have at it. If you are a debut author with developing skills tread lightly.

To publishers, an over-complicated first manuscript (if in review is captured as not well executed) is a slush pile's friend. The same is true for readers.

Especially, if it is a rouse for the sake of one.

~Q.

Do you mean ruse, perhaps? Or is cull a rouse simply an expression I've never heard before?

Not that "cull a ruse" makes any sense, either...

Filigree · Jul 26, 2014

Some ruses are magnificent. I love a good plot twist that relies on suckering me for most of a book or a TV series. But it has to be well-written.

Dennis E. Taylor · Jul 26, 2014

I read a book a long while back (I don't know why I think it was by James P Hogan) where a corporation is able to manufacture biological injectables that can modify people physically and mentally. The protagonist spends a lot of time trying to figure out how this is done. It is "mentioned" several times, both by the protagonist and by exposition that this can't be a case of a computer just calculating the viral requirements and manufacturing them, because the processing power would be well beyond available technology.

Now, when you're world building, you give the reader certain cues about what is possible and what is not possible, and this was presented as one of those. So when it turned out that it really was a super computer, and no explanation was given other than some lame variation on "oops. I guess I was wrong.", I threw the book against the wall. That was lying to the reader.

cwschizzy · Jul 26, 2014

If you have justifiable reasoning, it can usually be okay.

Viridian · Jul 26, 2014

My concern is that you might end up with readers who are actually attached to this villain, and those readers might become angry when it turns out this villain is actually a completely different person.

I would be concerned about the POV. You can never lie about a character's thoughts and feelings. You can have them pretend to feel a certain way; you can have them deceive other characters; you can just never talk about your character's thoughts and feelings; but you can't write "Bob felt sad" and then two chapters later inform the reader that Bob is secretly a sociopath incapable of sadness.

So, like anything else in writing, it's okay if you do it well.

Tromboli · Jul 26, 2014

mellymel said:
Dangerous Girls did this. Completely lied to the other characters AND the reader. I LOVED the book until the very, very end. Luckily, I loved the rest of the book so much that I just can't hate it, but honestly, it didn't make sense because we were in her POV the whole time, so I really felt cheated and lied to for the benefit of the BIG PLOT TWIST/REVEAL and it annoyed the hell out of me. So yeah, for me, I'd be annoyed (especially if, as Sage said, it's written in FPPOV or even a close third).

See, I LOVED this. I would have loved the book equally if the twist hadn't happened but it made SO MUCH SENSE. And added this deeper layer to the whole story. Because once you found out you can look at the whole book differently. I could go into why I was okay with it more but then I'd give away too much.

Unreliable narrator is subject, I think. Some will hate it. Some will love it. That's something you'll have to be willing to deal with going in.

Viridian · Jul 26, 2014

Megan Whalen Turner did it in The Thief (YA fantasy). The story is told in first person, and in the end, it turns out that the main character has been lying about his identity and his motivations the entire book. I loved it then -- the reveal made me grin like an idiot for ten minutes -- but I still felt kind of critical of it.

What made it work for me was the fact that the narrator himself never actually lies to the reader. He lies to other characters.

PsylentProtagonist · Jul 26, 2014

I think it really depends on the circumstances.

For a first person narrative, I think that lying to the reader will require some thinking on why. Fight Club and American Psycho had MCs that were off their rocker, so I could believe they lied to the reader, they were lying to themselves with their delusions. But if the MC is sane and just omitting details, its harder to do.

Third person would be easier. You can easily have one character be doing something wrong when the characters are different. There's a Christopher Pike book (or a few) where the villain is one of the main character's friends. They just do all their dirty deeds when the other characters are off somewhere else.

dantefrizzoli · Aug 1, 2014

I think it's totally up to you, you're the author and you get to do what you wish with your work, depending on how you want the story to turn out. Good luck!

Windcutter · Sep 10, 2014

mellymel said:
Dangerous Girls did this. Completely lied to the other characters AND the reader. I LOVED the book until the very, very end. Luckily, I loved the rest of the book so much that I just can't hate it, but honestly, it didn't make sense because we were in her POV the whole time, so I really felt cheated and lied to for the benefit of the BIG PLOT TWIST/REVEAL and it annoyed the hell out of me. So yeah, for me, I'd be annoyed (especially if, as Sage said, it's written in FPPOV or even a close third).

I think an unreliable narrator who isn't confused or insane is super tricky, yes. If they also lie to themselves, it's easier for the reader to swallow.

Lieing to your reader...is it ok?

Nogetsune

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

Osulagh

Independent fluffy puppy.

Justin K

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

Ride the Pen

eparadysz

mirandashell

Emmet Cameron

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

JustSarah

mellymel

mellymel

Dana_Queen

mrsmig

Write. Write. Writey Write Write.

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing

Dennis E. Taylor

Get it off! It burns!

cwschizzy

Eviscerate the Proletariat

Viridian

local good boy

Tromboli

Hopelessly Hopeful

Viridian

local good boy

PsylentProtagonist

American Vampire

dantefrizzoli

Windcutter