My university recommended I use a manuscript appraisal service that charges $90 an hour

Atlantis · Apr 6, 2014

I'm doing a class at the moment about publication. The class teaches you about the publishing industry, genre vs literature, how to write a proposal, that sort of thing.

Yesterday, while listening to the online lecture, my teacher recommended that we should consider using a manuscript appraisal service to "find out what is wrong with our book" and she said it could help us get it published.

I was pretty...godsmacked that she gave out such terrible advice. I've been on writers message boards since I was about 14 and one thing that has stuck with me over the years is not to go with book doctors, manuscript appraisal services, or paid editing services because they cost a hell of a lot and are not worth the investment.

The company she listed charges $90 an hour and will edit entire novels but all they do is a basic copy and structural edit and then they give you a four page critique. The total cost can be up to $2,000. How exactly will paying up to two grand for a critique help me get published? Why should I fork out so much money for someone to tell me that I have put a comma in the wrong place?

The teacher then showed us the website of an author who had gone ahead and done it and published a couple of books. The teacher said that if she had not have had the appraisal done she might never have gotten published.

Getting a manuscript appraisal done can be helpful, sure, but it is not a 100% sure fire way to getting closer to publication. It's like the episode of the Simpsons where Lisa says to Homer "By that logic this rock keeps tigers away" and Homer says "Lisa...I would like to buy your rock!"

I think writers would be better off keeping their two grand and learning how to edit their work themselves.

Marian Perera · Apr 6, 2014

Atlantis said:
The teacher then showed us the website of an author who had gone ahead and done it and published a couple of books. The teacher said that if she had not have had the appraisal done she might never have gotten published.

Just curious... do you know who published the books?

And yeah, what you said about the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Atlantis · Apr 6, 2014

Queen of Swords said:
Just curious... do you know who published the books?

And yeah, what you said about the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Robert Hale publishing in the UK.

cornflake · Apr 6, 2014

Is this the same class you'd said was so focused on grammar? Maybe the teacher doesn't see the forest for the trees?

Atlantis · Apr 6, 2014

cornflake said:
Is this the same class you'd said was so focused on grammar? Maybe the teacher doesn't see the forest for the trees?

No, no, this is a different class. I actually passed that unit somehow. I almost had a litter of kittens during the exam but I scraped through in the creative writing bits.

edit: I just remembered that this teacher was in charge of running the grammar class but did not teach it herself.

Chris P · Apr 6, 2014

Has your teacher been published?

Filigree · Apr 6, 2014

That's what I'd want to know. It may or may not be worth it to talk to her privately (not in front of the class.) How much do you need the grade, versus how outraged are you at bad information?

While getting an editor for self-publishing can be critical, workshopping and critique groups are far cheaper and probably more effective at the structural editing problems that plague many first novels. For submitting to bigger, stable publishers, prior 'professional' editing does seem to be a waste of money.

The kinds of editors I'd consider have worked in the Big Five for decades and usually charge around $200 an hour or more - but they do amazing work.

I'd worry that your instructor either just has bad information, or may be receiving kickbacks from the editing service.

Chris P · Apr 6, 2014

Filigree said:
I'd worry that your instructor either just has bad information, or may be receiving kickbacks from the editing service.

My guess is the former, since there is so much bad information out there. Yeah, editing could help, just as could sending a box of cookies with your manuscript. Does that make it a good idea or worth the time and money? And how do you know that the editor who gets your book knows what he or she is doing?

I used to work for a proofreading/editing company that offered manuscript critique services and query packages. I stopped taking fiction jobs after the second one (my specialty was scientific journal articles, which is a whole different business) because it felt wrong to take more money for the editing than the author was likely to make for writing.

Filigree · Apr 6, 2014

This is slightly off-topic, but here is an interview with an author who was unsatisfied with Hale.

I've included it as a typical caveat that previous 'professional editing' may not be a guarantee of publication at a strong house. Although still respected by lots of authors and reviewers, Hale is one of those publishers with hidden liabilities that newer authors might not pick up on. Using a Hale author - even a satisfied one - as an example of the virtues of paid editing is not a really valid argument.

laurasbadideas · Apr 6, 2014

This sounds pretty shady to me, especially since she's pushing one specific company. Does she have some kind of connection to this company? Does your university have any classes that teach novel writing? Why isn't she suggesting those instead?

Kerosene · Apr 6, 2014

I agree with the kickbacks or affiliation--the teach could be one of the editors, and just advertising. If I was you, Atlantis, I'd wait to pass the class and then bring up some concerns with your college's board. There might be strict rules in your college restricting the instructor's ability to advertise themselves or others for services--mine has some loose ones.

Otherwise, the advice of getting a manuscript appraisal service isn't bad. It's not exactly good--can be horrendous in the right community's eyes--but just not smart, IMO. You can do better by gathering beta-readers and asking them to be critical, rather than paying for some stranger to critique the MS--I want to note: If you do know who's appraising your MS and you respect their input, it might be worth it. And editing is editing; you either need it, or you don't. At least she's not advising someone who seeks trade publishing to get their MS edited.

From what I hear, the editing fees seem a tad high--depending, of course, on factors.

Atlantis · Apr 6, 2014

Chris P said:
Has your teacher been published?

She has had one novel published through a small local press.

blacbird · Apr 6, 2014

Atlantis said:
She has had one novel published through a small local press.

And did she use the $90-per-hour "appraisal" service?

caw

Atlantis · Apr 6, 2014

Filigree said:
This is slightly off-topic, but here is an interview with an author who was unsatisfied with Hale.

I've included it as a typical caveat that previous 'professional editing' may not be a guarantee of publication at a strong house. Although still respected by lots of authors and reviewers, Hale is one of those publishers with hidden liabilities that newer authors might not pick up on. Using a Hale author - even a satisfied one - as an example of the virtues of paid editing is not a really valid argument.

The author in that interview was the same author my teacher showed us as proof if you get professional editing you can get published professionally. That is interesting.

Atlantis · Apr 6, 2014

Filigree said:
That's what I'd want to know. It may or may not be worth it to talk to her privately (not in front of the class.) How much do you need the grade, versus how outraged are you at bad information?

While getting an editor for self-publishing can be critical, workshopping and critique groups are far cheaper and probably more effective at the structural editing problems that plague many first novels. For submitting to bigger, stable publishers, prior 'professional' editing does seem to be a waste of money.

The kinds of editors I'd consider have worked in the Big Five for decades and usually charge around $200 an hour or more - but they do amazing work.

I'd worry that your instructor either just has bad information, or may be receiving kickbacks from the editing service.

I read an article for the class today that said we should consider ringing publishers to find out if they would be interested in publishing our book and in the proposal we should give a recommended publication date that we might think would be a good chance for promotion - I guess publishing something near Christmas if the book is about Christmas.

All this bad advice is doing my head in a bit (especially the bit around ringing the publisher yeah they would love that), I need the grade but I'm making my opinions clear on the message board that I disagree with a lot that is being taught to the class.

My feeling is the teacher might be a colleague or a friend of the person who is running the manuscript appraisal service. It all seems a bit unethical to me.

Old Hack · Apr 6, 2014

Some very general background: Robert Hale is a niche publisher: it publishes books for libraries, so its books are in library binding: therefore they're usually much more expensive than you'd expect.

Their print-runs are short, as they sell primarily to the library market, and they only reprint when they have orders for 100 or more copies in hand: therefore their advances are low.

But once you get a contract from them it seems you're likely to get further contracts from them.

The advice you've been given seems bad to me. But I'm not sure how you can stop this bad advice being given out without jeopardising your chances in the class; you might be wise to get your head down and do your assignments as asked, while remembering that much of what you're being taught is not true.

If you're paying for this course, you might want to lodge a formal complaint with the institution you're learning in. It's wrong for you to be taught such misinformation. Especially when there are so many people out there who know how things really work.

Atlantis · Apr 7, 2014

blacbird said:
And did she use the $90-per-hour "appraisal" service?

caw

I don't know but the man who runs it is a published author at the same publishing house that she is.

Helix · Apr 7, 2014

To be fair to your lecturer, various writers centres in Australia offer information on manuscript appraisal services, including links to assessors, and some also offer those services as well, so the idea isn't something she's pulled out of thin air.

WritingWA

Queensland Writers Centre

Writers Victoria

NSW Writers Centre

Australian Writers Centre

(Might be worth emending the name of the unit, because they tend to be specific to the university.)

waylander · Apr 7, 2014

We have had several discussions on AW about the value of 'book doctors'. Suffice to say there are circumstances where I think they can play a useful role.

aruna · Apr 7, 2014

waylander said:
We have had several discussions on AW about the value of 'book doctors'. Suffice to say there are circumstances where I think they can play a useful role.

Exactly. And while it's not the rule, I do have to sy that the one I used was directly responsible for getting me a major agent and publisher. And she did not charge $90 an hour; nowhere near. She charges per word count and it came to around 300 GBP at the time (about 15 years ago but the price hasn't changed that much).

The point is: use discrimination. If you use a ms assessment service check out the credentials of the editors. And don't overpay.
ETA: it's definitely not kosher for a teacher to recommend a particular service. Take care.

Cathy C · Apr 7, 2014

Something you might consider is asking the teacher's opinion of some proven editors out there. You'd get a good feel for the advice she gives if she acknowledges the skill of the good ones and amends to tell the class that her suggestion is only one of several, or if she pushes her suggestion as better than others.

A few to print out pages on:

Anna Genoese - Aleuromancy Editing
Debra Doyle
P.N. Elrod

There are any number of other good ones. These just popped into my mind.

Filigree · Apr 7, 2014

Atlantis, if I was in the same situation, I'd wait to pass the class, until my grade was safe. Then ask to speak to her privately, and bring up all these issues. If she's genuinely trying to help, she might be willing to change her info. Or she might get defensive and double down. Then go talk to the administration of your school. Beyond that, there's not much you can do.

I am disheartened by the number of English language and writing teachers who still give bad advice. If I still tutored today I'd just start by giving everyone a printed reference page for AW, Writers Beware, Preditors & Editors, the 'Making Light' blog, and a few other 'real world' writers resources.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 7, 2014

I'd quit writing before I'd pay anyone for an appraisal, or use a book doctor. I am the book doctor. If you can write, you don't need a book doctor, and if you need a book doctor, you can't write.

The only appraisal service or book doctor any writer should need is the freebie you get when submitting something.

If your novel isn't close enough to professional quality to make a good agent or editor tell you what needs changed, then you need to learn how to make it so.

Money should flow to the writer, not away, and books should be written by the writer, not by anyone else.

jaksen · Apr 7, 2014

Like a lot that one learns in college, chew it up, but don't swallow. Spit it out when no one's looking.

I learned a lot about writing (in college) which was nothing but wishful thinking on the part of a few young professors who couldn't get published no matter what they did. (And this is eons ago, pre-internet and pre-computers for most people.) Had I followed their advice, I'd not be published today.

My best English/writing teachers were in high school, no kidding. But I went to high school in the late 1960's, when teachers were having us kids write out Beatles and Bob Dylan lyrics to analyze them. We read parts of the Bible as literature. One of my writing topics was, "Sexual Promiscuity Today." And yes, it was an assigned topic.

Back to your issue, in life you're going to get a lot of great device and a lot of not so great. One of the things about growing up and getting older is you learn to sift the great from the not so great. I'm sure this teacher has taught you some things of value. Use those.

Ignore what seems off. I think you've got a good gut instinct for what that is.

Filigree · Apr 7, 2014

What James said is harsh, but true.

The only time I'd use a paid editor is if and when I have to self-publish a big novel, and then only for line edits and proofreading. By that point in the process, my beta readers and I should have already dealt with structural errors.

My university recommended I use a manuscript appraisal service that charges $90 an hour

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