My university recommended I use a manuscript appraisal service that charges $90 an hour

Jamesaritchie said:

I'd quit writing before I'd pay anyone for an appraisal, or use a book doctor. I am the book doctor. If you can write, you don't need a book doctor, and if you need a book doctor, you can't write.

The only appraisal service or book doctor any writer should need is the freebie you get when submitting something.

If your novel isn't close enough to professional quality to make a good agent or editor tell you what needs changed, then you need to learn how to make it so.

Money should flow to the writer, not away, and books should be written by the writer, not by anyone else.

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James, I think the first part of your comment contradicts the part I've put into bold.

I agree that there's no point using an editor if you get your editor to improve your work for you, and that's that: but if you use an editorial agency which tutors you through the process of revising and improving your work (which is what the better ones do) then you're learning skills which you can apply to future titles: you're not just revising the book in front of you, you're learning how to make all your work better. And that's when it's worth employing a good editorial consultancy.

Filigree said:

What James said is harsh, but true.

The only time I'd use a paid editor is if and when I have to self-publish a big novel, and then only for line edits and proofreading. By that point in the process, my beta readers and I should have already dealt with structural errors.

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I've read many books which have been through beta-reading, but which are rife with structural errors (and others too). Beta readers aren't necessarily the answer.

Hold on a minute -- I'm on the phone to all five of the Big dogs, telling them when they should publish my next series. Some of them sounded a little disgruntled, but then I told them a COLLEGE PROFESSOR passed out an article about it, so they caved and said next Whitsuntide would be fine.

Atlantis said:

I don't know but the man who runs it is a published author at the same publishing house that she is.

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This thread has my scruff up. A university instructor (or professor) should not be in the business of recommending a service and then directing the students to a specific provider, unless that instructor can assure the students the provider (1) is far superior to all others (this should have some documentation) and (2) has no association, formal or otherwise (including friendship) with said instructor. Universities have very specific and detailed conflict of interest regulations. For example I have to fill out a multi-question form each and every year that asks for specific outside activities and their potential for any kind of conflict of interest. If the instructor chooses to push the benefits of an outside evaluation service, he/she should provide a list of potential providers, and that list should include none with which he/she has even the slightest appearance of a connection.

To indicate the kind of regulations in play, if I write a textbook for a class I teach, I can't require that text unless I can prove it is truly unique with no equivalent competitors. If there are competitors, I would have to offer the students a choice of textbooks, including mine. In other words, requiring students to purchase my book for a class is potentially a huge conflict of interest situation since I directly benefit (through royalties).

This instructor's actions strike me as having a huge ethical stickiness.

$90 per hour is an awful lot.

Then again so is college tuition.

That's what I thought, Neuro. I have a relative who teaches architecture at a major American university, and he has to go through pages of disclosure forms every semester.

Old Hack, I agree that beta readers are not the only (or in some cases the best) answer. Structure can be taught, like everything else. I learned an immense amount every time a professional editor worked with me on a contracted piece. And I've been lucky in that a couple of my beta readers are far better at this than I am.

It may just come down to cost v. opportunity v. professionalism. If I had several thousand dollars to spend on one project, I'd be equally well served if I contracted someone like Betsy Mitchell or the good Dr. Doyle - or went to Clarion West or Viable Paradise and workshopped the heck out of the mms.

But I had to get *to that point* first, both in terms of my writing skills and my ego. To be really harsh (and from years of hanging around with other would-be authors), a lot of the writers looking for professional editing are probably not even at the stage where they can grasp the lessons good editors could teach them. Or they can get those lessons much more easily through books or reputable online courses.

ETA: Ken, the person I'm looking at does charge $200 per hour. But she's really good and she understands all my genres. Her CV shows it. And she's not the only top-tier editor around. Personally, I wouldn't hire anyone with a background at a little press or school, unless they can show some seriously great books in their past.

OK, one possibly dumb question. The lecturer is teaching a writing class. Why isn't she assessing the manuscripts and providing feed back? Isn't that what she is there for?

Also, editing services. A friend of mine for whom I beta read paid John Jarrold to look at a manuscript (that I'd already beta-read) and we both learnt a lot. The manuscript was in pretty good shape already, but there was some very useful fine tuning that could be done. FYI John Jarrold used to be the commissioning editor on the Earthlight imprint. So not only a professional editor, but one who'd worked in sff. These days he is an agent and provides an editorial service.

On and off I've also read John Barnes and his book doctor's black bag blog - that has some interesting comments on how you structure the storytelling. He provides a paid service too (not used it) but there is a caveat on it about you shouldn't be a writer who has just started, you should have finished at least one book - until you've done that you're not advanced enough in the craft for what he does.

@ Filigree

On the flipside of the coin, I am pleased that editors (professional ones with good CV's and whatnot) are getting top dollar. They deserve it. Editing is a really valuable skill. And if they have expertise (real expertise) then they are not ripping off those willing to pay. (Not to say those willing to pay necessarily need to.)

I always find it a little odd how people will warn someone off paying for an edit stating that you have to be careful to make sure the editor knows what they're doing and then turn around and advise to get a free beta without the same warning to make sure the beta knows what they're doing, too.

And somehow this free beta implicitly carries much more weight in the knowledge department than paying for the knowledge.

Just...a little funny to me, I guess.

Ken said:

$90 per hour is an awful lot.

Then again so is college tuition.

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The OP's in Australia, where uni fees are not cheap, but not as ghastly as they can be elsewhere. Arts degrees are about AU$7,000 p.a. for Australian citizens. Undergraduate students can defer payment of the fees until they cross an income threshold, currently just over AU$51,000.

As for AU$90/hr for a comprehensive edit -- that's sounds reasonable recompense for working on someone else's manuscript. Be good if we could get that in royalties for our own!

Not me. I won't ask a beta reader unless I know their skill level.

Helix said:

Arts degrees are about AU$7,000 p.a. for Australian citizens.

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Good deal. Here in the states that'd just about cover the cost of textbooks for a semester.

Ken said:

Good deal. Here in the states that'd just about cover the cost of textbooks for a semester.

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That's frightening!

*makes note to write more textbooks*

Helix said:

That's frightening!

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It's also exaggeration. While textbooks are expensive, they don't come to US$6,500 (which is AUS$7,000) per semester. They probably won't come to that total for an entire four-year program, though, depending on your course, it might come close.

According to this article from January 2013, the average cost of textbooks per year was US$655, although, as the article acknowledges, "with a single textbook easily costing as much as $300, that total can easily be much higher." Still, it doesn't approach US$6,500 per semester.

We probably need a hyperbole icon.

bearilou said:

I always find it a little odd how people will warn someone off paying for an edit stating that you have to be careful to make sure the editor knows what they're doing and then turn around and advise to get a free beta without the same warning to make sure the beta knows what they're doing, too.

And somehow this free beta implicitly carries much more weight in the knowledge department than paying for the knowledge.

Just...a little funny to me, I guess.

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I don't know about the rest of you, but my beta isn't editing my book. She's reading it as a reader, a very thorough reader, but a reader none the less. Her job is to asses the plot, the characters, my writing style etc. It's not her job to pick apart my MS.

As the others have said in relation to the original thread - I'd be a little wary, as I always am when people who are supposedly in the know (as you would expect someone lecturing in publication to be) would be a bit more clued in.

I know we've asked if she was published, but does she have any actual publishing experience - ie. seeing it from the other side? If not, what is really qualifying her to teach this class?

Now, in all other aspects she could be an amazing teacher and highly knowledgable, but this is just bad advice and she should really know better. I'd also be wary about the connection between her and the supplier of the service - could be a coincidence, but who knows?

edt/

textbooks cost an arm and a leg

;-)

Ken said:

edt/

textbooks cost an arm and a leg

;-)

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Some of my veterinary ones were over £100 each and that was almost 10 years ago.

Bolero said:

OK, one possibly dumb question. The lecturer is teaching a writing class. Why isn't she assessing the manuscripts and providing feed back? Isn't that what she is there for?

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My writing professors taught us writing basics, ran our workshop classes, maybe gave us some cursory information on the publishing process and that was it. We only wrote essays and short stories in our writing classes, not full novel manuscripts.

But none of them ever told us about manuscript appraisals either. Or beta readers.

shaldna said:

Some of my veterinary ones were over £100 each and that was almost 10 years ago.

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Wow. $167.46 US dollars. Helix may have something there with writing textbooks. Sell a hundred copies; net $16,746 ! (And that was ten years ago.)

Trouble is, that kind of text book will be very heavy on diagrams and photos - so they cost an arm and a leg to produce in the first place.
Ditto science text books with equations as well as diagrams and photos.

A lot of those textbooks are multi-author too and contributions are bought outright rather than on a royalty basis. Plus there can be all sorts of odd claims on income derived from textbooks if the author is an academic at one of those unis with rapacious IP clauses in the employment contracts. Or, indeed, not in the contracts but brought in as a subsequent uni-wide policy. Even if the textbook was written in the academic's own time on their own equipment in their own home.

I mention this purely as a hypothetical, you understand.

[Insert appropriate icon]

And there's that little thing about you having to be an expert in your field to be commissioned to write a University-level textbook. It's not something most writers can just pick up.

It would be interesting to view a breakdown of all costs involved in producing a college textbook as well as profits and where those go. Maybe the sky-high price is justified. Maybe it varies from book to book. Maybe someone along the line is making out like a bandit, in general. Thanks for the insight.

Ken, textbooks are expensive because there's such a limited market for them. Economies of scale and all that.

They don't necessarily earn their authors much, and do require a lot of expertise to write: in general, they're not a money-spinner for the writers concerned.

Jamesaritchie said:

I'd quit writing before I'd pay anyone for an appraisal, or use a book doctor. I am the book doctor. If you can write, you don't need a book doctor, and if you need a book doctor, you can't write.

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I agree with this, generally. The only thing I'd add is that I think having a trusted beta reader (who knows and enjoys your genre) is a really good idea.

The grammar, etc., is stuff you catch yourself during editing. Good sentence-writing is learned through practice.

You don't need a book doctor. You just need a second set of (objective) eyes to point out when that plot device in your head didn't quite make it to the page.