Are rainbow casts bad?

Have a seat. Take a deep breath. Don't panic.

You asked for people's opinions, and folks gave them openly and honestly. You didn't like it. So much so that you are talking about not writing the story at all now. That would be a complete shame.

Now, it's yet another morning where I've only had one cup of coffee, so bear with me. What I see in this thread over and over is that folks are not bothered by the rainbow cast near as much as the fact that so many of the characters that you describe have more than one thing going on in their background. Certainly there are people in the world like that, but why not simplify slightly? Why not have your Korean born in Korea instead of Russia?

A little crit is no reason to not write a story. Take a few days to consider what was said, then consider making adjustments. Or tell us all to go to hell and write it the way you first planned. Take care asking for crit in the future, you come off as being a little thin-skinned in your responses. That's nothing to be ashamed of, it takes practice and time to get that thick skin going. But when the critters hear "well, I'm just not going to write it at all!" it sounds like "well, I don't like playing with you, so I'm taking my toys and going home!" It gives us, as critiquers, no where to go. You have given up, we have no further advice to give.

So, as I said, give it a few days for the crit to sink in, then see what you think of it. No one here is saying that your baby is ugly, they're just saying you might have gotten a little over-complicated.

The scenario you described, aliens taking someone from all different parts of the world, is great. It means a rainbow cast is expected, not try-hard.

But yeah, maybe it would be a good idea to simplify their backgrounds, otherwise you have to spend pages on each character explaining why he's Korean but keeps saying da and nyet, and so on.

... like everything else, a character's heritage should come from the story
and be integral to it. Not just somewhat so, but completely so. If it isn't
then it's going to feel artificial and forced and preachy. Granted, diversity
is a great thing to promote. But it's still preaching which is best left out of fiction.
It will most always mess up a story. So take a moment to consider things.
Are your characters like they are b/c that's what the story calls for or
b/c you want them to be like such and such? G'luck.
Writing, aside, I admire your perspective and aim.

Missus Akasha said:

...
My orginial question was if rainbow cases are bad. No one said they were bad in a sense, but in a way, I am still confused. A lot of posters said the story was trying too hard. If I changed the Nigerian boy to be from Nigeria and not live in Czech Republic, would that be more acceptable? If I changed the Korean-Russian boy to being just from Korea, would that make the story more acceptable?

Or would it still be "trying too hard"?

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I think it boils down to a matter of probability, especially if there is a 'random' component. The odds of one or two 'mixed' people aren't that remote, but beyond that, when you get together a random selection of people there's bound to be some 'clustering' of some sort for a start.

Given that both China and India have populations of a billion on top of people of Chinese or Indian origin scattered throughout the world, you're more likely to find someone from there than, say a tiny country like Czech.
Also, the odds of there being a Nigerian grabbed randomly from the streets of Prague are much less likely than someone who's Czech or Slovakian or even Australian. Meanwhile, Nigeria itself has a population of over 150 million, making a Nigerian from Nigeria much more probable than one from central Europe with less than a tenth that number of people.

Wilde_at_heart said:

Given that both China and India have populations of a billion on top of people of Chinese or Indian origin scattered throughout the world, you're more likely to find someone from there than, say a tiny country like Czech.

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It gets worst when you take into account neihbouring countries: I think something like almost 4 billion people leave in south and east Asia; Indonesia has almost 250 million people; Pakistan, Bangladesh, Japan and the Philippines all have well over 100 million people; Vietnam, Thailand and Myanmar all have over 50 million, and South Korea isn't far from that mark either.

But that also depends *how* random the abduction is; say, if it's actually *geographically* random, then in that case population density and size doesn't really matter, and you're as likely to get an inhabitant from Shanghai or Mumbai than you're to get one from Funafuti or Nuuk.

Missus Akasha said:

My orginial question was if rainbow cases are bad. No one said they were bad in a sense, but in a way, I am still confused. A lot of posters said the story was trying too hard. If I changed the Nigerian boy to be from Nigeria and not live in Czech Republic, would that be more acceptable? If I changed the Korean-Russian boy to being just from Korea, would that make the story more acceptable?

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was suggesting. Given that they're being picked at random from all parts of the world, out of ten characters, you might, say, have a Korean from Korea, a Nigerian from Nigeria, a Chinese character from New York, a Fijian kid from Fiji, and so on. So the majority of the characters are of the race that makes up the majority of their country, with a couple of them being the exception. This way, you still have an extremely diverse cast, which is great, but it's also believable and doesn't come off as trying too hard with all the unique mix between nationality and race.

Missus Akasha said:

So I have a:
A British-American white guy (British mother, American father)
A dark-skinned British girl of African descent
A Korean-Russian guy (not half white Russian/Korean, but he was born and raised in Russia by Korean parents who were born and raised in Russia. Yes, they do exist there!)
Quebec Cree girl

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Honestly, the term 'British character' makes my teeth squeak. It can be refering to someone from anyone of FOUR different countries.

Also, certain demographics tend to be very localised - for instance, certain areas will have a higher population of Inidan, African, Chinese etc. And how the characters talk, think and interact will be influenced by where they live etc.

For being such a small kingdom, Britain is very localised, and you'll find very distinct accents and culture develop in small areas,. with accents etc changing within a a mile or two in some instances.

So please, please research.

And don't ever refer to 'that British guy' or 'the British girl at the bar' because that term doesn't actually mean anything.

Missus Akasha said:

My orginial question was if rainbow cases are bad. No one said they were bad in a sense, but in a way, I am still confused.

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Personally I dislike stories that are multi racial for no other reason than to be 'rainbow' or 'inclusive'. That's not real life and I personally find it a little patronising when a story is populated by multi-racial characters that are out of context with their upbrining, surroundings, social demographics, but seem to exist only to show ethnic diversity. It's almost like saying that a reader needs a white/black/asian character included just so they have something to identify with.

A lot of posters said the story was trying too hard. If I changed the Nigerian boy to be from Nigeria and not live in Czech Republic, would that be more acceptable? If I changed the Korean-Russian boy to being just from Korea, would that make the story more acceptable?

Click to expand...

Why do you need the Nigerian to live in CR? Can he not just be Nigerian, or just Czech? What is the logic behind it? Is it to make the character more interesting? Unless it serves a purpose or matters to teh story, then I'd question why you need to do it.

I'm about a page behind this thread, but:

Ken said:

... like everything else, a character's heritage should come from the story
and be integral to it. Not just somewhat so, but completely so. If it isn't
then it's going to feel artificial and forced and preachy.

Click to expand...

Wait a second. If a character's heritage should be integral to the story, then what about if it isn't? What heritage should the character have then? There's no such thing as the absence of race/ethnicity; if making a character a minority demographic *must* be important to the story, then isn't it equally true that making the character Caucasian *must* be important to the story?

And simply not describing people doesn't work either, because most readers default to seeing undescribed characters as white.

I'm sorry -- I simply don't agree that we should only describe race/ethnicity/heritage if it somehow drives the plot, or that everyone should be white unless there's a reason for a character to be otherwise. That's not the way humanity works -- we are what we are; we're not a specific heritage for plot reasons, not to mention that doing things the way you suggest reinforces white as the "default" state of a human being.

And to the OP: Take a deep breath and have a muffin. We were just throwing out various reactions to your question with the context we had. If you feel your setting/context negates any of the objections people raised, and nobody's brought up anything that you don't feel your book addresses, then I think you're fine. Honestly, we were just trying to answer your question as well as we could (and I know people sometimes skim long threads, so if some of your explanations were missed it doesn't mean anyone was being malicious, right? Right).

The issue isn't having a diverse cast, but how they're chosen. Your picks came across as odd because they didn't sound random, when they were supposed to be random. Of course, true random might also sound odd to readers (as a random coin flip can throw heads for an hour), so it needs a little smoothing out. As a worked example, this is what I mean.

This page lists countries by population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

For 100 teens, you can use the figure given in the percentages. Chinese and Indian would dominate and a lot of countries would have one or fewer teens. For ten, the tops will seem more realistic if they're a little exaggerated (even if that isn't really realistic). So it might be something like:


3 China
2 India
1 Indonesia
1 Nigeria
1 UK
1 Brazil
1 Kiribati

The trick here is that if the top two are the two most populated countries in the world, and the others are a mix of places, people are more likely to go along with it. They're less likely if most of your countries are English-speaking (USA, UK, Canada, Australia would seem odd). Choosing one very small country helps, as that's your randomness-does-weird-things choice. The majority would be the racial majority group in that country. But you could flip a couple (like making your UKer Black British and one of the Chinese people non-Asian) and that would also seem random. Flip too many and it becomes too statistically odd for people to buy.

That's really the trick here. It's to figure out what would be a reasonable group for a random selection. And then tweaking just enough to get your favourites back in.

shaldna said:

Honestly, the term 'British character' makes my teeth squeak. It can be refering to someone from anyone of FOUR different countries.

Also, certain demographics tend to be very localised - for instance, certain areas will have a higher population of Inidan, African, Chinese etc. And how the characters talk, think and interact will be influenced by where they live etc.

For being such a small kingdom, Britain is very localised, and you'll find very distinct accents and culture develop in small areas,. with accents etc changing within a a mile or two in some instances.

So please, please research.

And don't ever refer to 'that British guy' or 'the British girl at the bar' because that term doesn't actually mean anything.

Click to expand...

I'm a little bit confused by this...so saying "that British guy" is offensive? I find that strange because Mr. Putt, who is English, refers to himself uses both "English" and "British" to describe himself.

Putputt said:

I'm a little bit confused by this...so saying "that British guy" is offensive? I find that strange because Mr. Putt, who is English, refers to himself uses both "English" and "British" to describe himself.

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In the USA and online I use British for the sake of clarity. But it's not how I self-describe usually. I'd just say I'm English. So it'd be common for an English person online, or living outside the UK, to say they're British. But it doesn't mean they grew up calling themselves that in a home context.

The issue is not really that British is a terrible insult. It's that it's often used to generalise out of a lack of understanding of the cultures. A person from the UK isn't likely to think, "Wow, another British person." They'll think of them by country at least, if not more specifically by region.

slhuang said:

I'm about a page behind this thread, but:



Wait a second. If a character's heritage should be integral to the story, then what about if it isn't? What heritage should the character have then? There's no such thing as the absence of race/ethnicity; if making a character a minority demographic *must* be important to the story, then isn't it equally true that making the character Caucasian *must* be important to the story?

And simply not describing people doesn't work either, because most readers default to seeing undescribed characters as white.

I'm sorry -- I simply don't agree that we should only describe race/ethnicity/heritage if it somehow drives the plot, or that everyone should be white unless there's a reason for a character to be otherwise. That's not the way humanity works -- we are what we are; we're not a specific heritage for plot reasons, not to mention that doing things the way you suggest reinforces white as the "default" state of a human being.

And to the OP: Take a deep breath and have a muffin. We were just throwing out various reactions to your question with the context we had. If you feel your setting/context negates any of the objections people raised, and nobody's brought up anything that you don't feel your book addresses, then I think you're fine. Honestly, we were just trying to answer your question as well as we could (and I know people sometimes skim long threads, so if some of your explanations were missed it doesn't mean anyone was being malicious, right? Right).

Click to expand...

... nah. caucasian ain't teh default. never suggested such.
same about diversity, as defined. To me it means just that: diverse.
A cast of all white characters isn't. Nor all black, or Asian, etc.
There are some who define diversity as, "any cast other than white."
But I'm not really on board with that. There's something confrontational
about that, blemishing an otherwise neat term, meaning inclusiveness for ALL.
Again, my objection is when it's forced or imposed from without
rather than from within: from the characters, themselves, or from the story.
I suppose it could be ancillary. I guess I just don't approach things like
that myself. To me everything should be necessary and essential. Most
books I read are like that too. But of course that's just my perspective
and individual experience. Like you say, I am offering an opinion, not
saying anyone should DO THINGS THIS WAY OR ELSE !

;-)

Missus Akasha said:

I am not quite sure yet if I want her to be English or Irish.

Click to expand...

... this is a good way to go.
If you're not sure, delay and put it off.
Then return to it when the story is gains solidity.
By then questions of the sort usually become settled.
Not by the author, but by the characters and story.
IMO.

... seems sensible

I say write whatever characters you want, and that we need more diversity in books. My series The Divide has a cast of all multi-racial characters, set 200 years in the future. Part of the plot is that the gov't is trying to hide facts about history, including race, and the MC learns why in book 2. There was also a gov't plot behind trying to make a post-racial era, yet still separating some other citizens (all LGBT) from the rest in forced Gay Communities.

My MC is black/white female.
Then I have:
Black/Mexican/Puerto Rican female
Chinese/Japanese female
White/Native American (Cheyenne) female
Hispanic (not specified)/White guy

Some other people are just described as dark or tan or pale. But there are still people who speak Spanish as another language and who know about their ancestral cultures and keep family records. All this is in a dystopian world.

Missus Akasha said:

So yes, the statistics are more realistic, but this is the Queen of Hearts from Wonderland kidnapping children around the world. If I had legit scientific logic behind that then it really wouldn't be Alice in Wonderland, LOL?

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I think I understand what you are trying to say, but you asked for opinions, yes? I don't think anyone's saying that rainbow casts are bad, but the kinds of casts (of any sort) that don't match the demographics or fit the general time period or setting, etc, may be seen as contrived. Or "trying too hard"?

Still, even with Alice in Wonderland logic, we are still humans with human logic, and we would still think in human terms (in our current cultures and time frame), ya know?

Forgive me, I forgot something. Did you mention the time period of the Earth from which the "Alices" are taken from?

If it's a contemporary, modern/current time-frame, then, (like some of the other posters said), maybe you should consider the demographics/statistics and estimate the probability of what races are most likely to be "picked up" in these "random" abductions.

If it's the future or an alternative-world, I can more readily accept the variety of people with mixed ancestry or unusual backgrounds, etc, that you have here.

However, does the Queen in Wonderland have a reason for those particular people with unusual or mixed ancestry/background/etc? If she does, then you could be fine as long as it's mentioned why or how.

Anyway, if you just want to experiment and have fun, that's the purpose of NaNo, and you should experiment and enjoy the experience.

Polenth said:

In the USA and online I use British for the sake of clarity. But it's not how I self-describe usually. I'd just say I'm English. So it'd be common for an English person online, or living outside the UK, to say they're British. But it doesn't mean they grew up calling themselves that in a home context.

The issue is not really that British is a terrible insult. It's that it's often used to generalise out of a lack of understanding of the cultures. A person from the UK isn't likely to think, "Wow, another British person." They'll think of them by country at least, if not more specifically by region.

Click to expand...

Of course it's used to generalize. The further you travel, the larger an area you have to name when asked where you're from. If I'm in Arizona, I'll name my hometown. If I'm elsewhere in the U.S., I say I'm from Arizona. If I'm in another country, I say I'm from the U.S. If I ever traveled in space, I'd say I was from Earth.

You're in a slightly different situation, I'll admit. I'd say people around the world are equally familiar with the terms "England" and "Great Britain," so it doesn't makes sense to name the larger area needlessly. (Likewise, if you're from California, Texas, or New York, there's really no need to move outward and say the U.S.)

It's not that I think people won't have heard of Arizona. It's more that people want an answer they can connect with easily, one that helps them form a mental image of where you're from. If the person you're talking to turns out to be familiar with the area and wants a more detailed answer, they'll ask.

I've always found it an interesting phenomenon. It never occurred to me to take offense.

bunny-gypsy said:

If it's a contemporary, modern/current time-frame, then, (like some of the other posters said), maybe you should consider the demographics/statistics and estimate the probability of what races are most likely to be "picked up" in these "random" abductions.

If it's the future or an alternative-world, I can more readily accept the variety of people with mixed ancestry or unusual backgrounds, etc, that you have here.

Click to expand...

Maybe just living in a bigger city could help, too. I live in Indiana . . . lots of small, mostly white towns. But I currently live and work in a town with a lot of diversity, so the contemporary works I write use fictional versions of this town as a guideline.

And now I'm working on a new contemporary book so I'm going to use the same kind of basis for diversity. This is my NaNo project, and I'm writing a book about bullying called "Know Your Place." My MC is named Rylen and there's a lot of traits she has based on me, but not all. She's 16, white, has Asperger's, and doesn't really have any friends. But one day the jerk who picks on her most starts messing with her at lunch, and then turns on a freshman named Quintez who Rylen knows from study hall, a boy with Tourette's who is short, skinny, wears glasses, and is black. Rylen jumps up to defend him and the two form a sort of alliance. Even though Quintez is a straight-A student, and Rylen does well in everything except math, they have to go to the special ed room for study hall together with some other kids. Eventually two other freshmen join their group, both with ADHD: a white kid named Mark and a biracial (black/white) kid named Aiden. Quintez starts taking karate lessons and teaching the others, and they find other ways to try to protect themselves from being picked on. But another girl, a sophomore named Jada who can't hear, and whose Mom was born in China, and whose Dad was born in Hong King, also becomes interested in joining their group. Rylen and she become friends but now Rylen is worried. Her biggest secret could be discovered. She doesn't care if kids make fun of her and call her a loser, a freak, or even stupid, as long as they don't find out she's gay. And on top of all this, an adult role model who she trusts is going to betray her, so Rylen needs friends.

I thought it would be interesting to write a book where every main character has a physical or mental struggle to go through because I really haven't seen anything like that. Asperger's, Tourette's, ADHD, being deaf. All where the kids are potentially very smart but have problems where they get perceived as "different" or even stupid and are targets. And I want to show them being powerful and overcoming the jerks who won't leave them alone. The races of the characters just sort of came to me as I wrote, I didn't even have names for anyone at first. I want this to be inspirational for teenagers, and I hope I can make it work!

*ETA--there will be some racial struggles too but it's all just part of the story in general, of being against all forms of bullying and the kids who join together to try to change their own lives.

After reading a comment by Ken ("… diverse. A cast of all white characters isn't. Nor all black, or Asian, etc."), I thought I'd just throw this out there for what it's worth.

I grew up in an almost all-black neighborhood in Chicago, and yet I describe it as very diverse. Many of the parents were from the deep South, and some, like my dad, were big-city folks. I grew up with Creoles, Catholics, Baptists, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Haitians, and biracial kids (half-white, Japanese, and Vietnamese). There was a wide range of accents, foods, music, and customs … which leads me to feel that the way blacks are often portrayed on TV, movies, and books is way too simplistic and stereotypical.

And some all-white areas can be just as interesting when you have various ethnic groups and religions represented—they're not all the same either.

... Chicago. "The Windy City."

So much so peeps'll be walking along
minding their own p's & q's when up comes a strong gust.
Next they know they're swept into someones arms -- or lap.
"Why hello there, Miss." "Likewise, able-bodied fella!"

Accounts for your own congenial perspective mayhaps.
Will tend to it with aim of improving my own.
Always room for improvment. ALWAYS !

Chicago . . . the only place I've been where a random person asked me for money and when I said I didn't have any, another stranger said, "Can you believe some people?" then asked me if I wanted to buy a necklace. LMAO.

Love it though, I write for Windy City Times a few times a year and now that Illinois passed same-sex marriage I might get married in Chicago instead of DC!