Non-fatal stabbings....

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Torin

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Just a note: if you're going to specify a nerve or muscle in particular, do the research so someone who DOES know their anatomy well doesn't think you're an idiot. I read a book once in which someone slashed a guy across his upper arm and took out his brachial artery, which is all well and good if you don't know that the brachial artery runs down the INSIDE (medial humerus) of the upper arm close to the body, not outside (lateral humerus), and another book had a guy slam someone else's forearm on a metal table and broke his radius. Unfortunately, ulna is the one that ends along the baby finger side of your arm. Radius comes down the thumb side. My brain did contortions trying to make that one work.

So...don't pick muscles, nerves, bones or arteries at random. Know your body.

Torin, stepping down off anatomical rant soapbox
 

Liam Jackson

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Excellent comment, Torin. It's easy to make a mistake when referencing human anatomy. So many moving parts with similar names, functions, etc. Unfortunately, one or two such mistakes can quickly erode the reader's confidence. The massive numbers of inaccurate websites doesn't help, either.

If you intend to write scenes heavy with anatomical description, you might consider investing in a copy of Gray's Anatomy. The current edition is #39, and was published in late 2004. Relatively expensive, but worth the investment if this type of story is your bag.

I'm not sure that level of description/explanation is really worth the effort unless you're writing a highly technical story. Too much room for error.
 

Fractured_Chaos

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Torin said:
Just a note: if you're going to specify a nerve or muscle in particular, do the research so someone who DOES know their anatomy well doesn't think you're an idiot. I read a book once in which someone slashed a guy across his upper arm and took out his brachial artery, which is all well and good if you don't know that the brachial artery runs down the INSIDE (medial humerus) of the upper arm close to the body, not outside (lateral humerus), and another book had a guy slam someone else's forearm on a metal table and broke his radius. Unfortunately, ulna is the one that ends along the baby finger side of your arm. Radius comes down the thumb side. My brain did contortions trying to make that one work.

So...don't pick muscles, nerves, bones or arteries at random. Know your body.

Torin, stepping down off anatomical rant soapbox

These are precisely the mistakes I want to avoid. Which is why I'm incredibly grateful for all the experts on this board. :D
 

Fractured_Chaos

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LiamJackson said:
I'm not sure that level of description/explanation is really worth the effort unless you're writing a highly technical story. Too much room for error.

I look at it this way...While my scenes are not going to be -that- technical (ie, I can just use plain, everyday english to describe what's happening), I want to know enough to avoid the "Hollywood" mistakes...like having someone die from a wound that normally wouldn't kill you.

But if I ever do decide to write something that will be highly technical....I'll be sure to invest in a copy of Grey's Anatomy. :D
 

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Regarding the line about ultra-technical details:
I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was speaking of your WIP, drgnlvr. I wasn't. I think your approach to the crime and the research youve conducted is very appropriate to the story. I also think you've got a great story line and I'm anxious to read the finished product. *Cheers*
 

Fractured_Chaos

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LiamJackson said:
Regarding the line about ultra-technical details:
I'm sorry if it seemed as though I was speaking of your WIP, drgnlvr. I wasn't. I think your approach to the crime and the research youve conducted is very appropriate to the story. I also think you've got a great story line and I'm anxious to read the finished product. *Cheers*

Not at all, Darlin'! I was (badly, I admit) applauding the idea of getting Grey's Anatomy if you do go into technical details.

Getting -any- kind of detail wrong is a bad idea, no matter what. But how much detail you need, depends on the type of story you're writing.

If the story was involving forensic pathology, I'd definately want the details, and I'll call BS on a writer who tries to fudge his way through it. Even if I don't have that much knowledge of the details, I have a pretty good BS meter. ;)

OTOH, something like what I'm writing, doesn't need -THAT- kind of detail. If I were to do that, it would be nothing more than "showing off".
 

Torin

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The Anatomy Coloring Book is also an extremely useful tool. I use it all the time to explain to clients what's going on in their body, which muscles are probably causing the problem. And it's a LOT cheaper than Gray's. LOL.

Torin
 

MacAllister

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I have a copy of Grays left over from Art school. Couldn't write without it, sometimes.

Who knew that art degree would be so handy for a writer? :)
 

BradyH1861

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LiamJackson said:
On a somewhat(?) related note: While chokes do not work on fire, a fire ax serves just fine as a search warrant.

Indeed they do. In fact, this reminds me of a humorous incident. I will include it here because folks might get a laugh out of it. We were dispatched to an automatic alarm in an office building around 2 am one morning. (this was before we got notch boxes to get into buildings) Anyway, there were no outward signs of smoke or fire, and the sprinklers had not activated, so I made the decision to have dispatch go ahead and call the key holder to come out and let us into the building to reset the alarm. She shows up about 20 minutes later....a young lady in a corvette. I tell her "Ma'am, I'm going to need you to unlock the building for us so we can go in and reset your alarm." Her response shocked me. "Do you have a warrant?" I had to ask her to repeat what she said. I couldn't believe it! I actually argued with the lady for five minutes about how I didn't need one, public safety, etc. Finally I had enough and went over to the truck and grabbed the axe and halligan bar. "These are my warrants," I declared. I gave her one last chance but she still wouldn't budge. We took the doors down. About a month later we got the lawsuit. It was tossed out of court, naturally, but I tried to be nice. I COULD have charged her with interfering with a fire department official.

So yes, I have used the "fireman's warrant" before!

Brady H.
 

Spookster

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What a ninny. When FD responds to my house, I offer them iced tea. They always decline. I've bought coffee for ER nurses, too. I like to know they're on a caffine buzz at 3 am.
 

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Spookster said:
What a ninny. When FD responds to my house, I offer them iced tea.

Do they do that a lot, hun? There is an elderly couple in our district who had a house fire around Thanksgiving three years ago. They still bring us cookies about once a month or so. Nice people. We were at one guy's house one night and he offered me a joint.....I declined.

Brady H.
 

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They still bring us cookies about once a month or so. Nice people. We were at one guy's house one night and he offered me a joint.....I declined.

Cookies? How nice!

Joint? Uh.... interesting... choice? :Wha:
 

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Originally posted by BradyH
Do they do that a lot, hun?

Yeah. My MIL (mom-in-law) has been increasingly ill for the past two years. Hubby and I were primary care-givers until we moved her by SIL in January. (We had to place her in a nursing/rehab ctr. and couldn't find anything close to us.) It's sad when you know half the FD/Medics/ER staff. It's even sadder when they recognise you.
 

BradyH1861

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Spookster said:
Yeah. My MIL (mom-in-law) has been increasingly ill for the past two years. Hubby and I were primary care-givers until we moved her by SIL in January. (We had to place her in a nursing/rehab ctr. and couldn't find anything close to us.) It's sad when you know half the FD/Medics/ER staff. It's even sadder when they recognise you.

Sorry to hear that. Yes, that is kind of sad! We have a few "frequent fliers" in our district. Even our dispatchers recognize their voices now too. So we sometimes hear "Engine One, Medic Three, unknown medical problem at Mrs. XXX's house. You know the drill."

Of course, there was the time we were dispatched to "a seventy year old male with rectal bleeding."

Brady H.,
 

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Most of our calls have been due to her COPD with severe URI. The hardest one on me was last Sept. They released MIL from the hosp. even after nearly an hour of my trying to roughhouse the Drs. into keeping her. They released her severely altered, bed-ridden, with MRSA, and a URI on Thurs. Less than 24 hrs. later, I had to call EMS for transport back to the hosp. Now, as I stated, this was the norm. But, she was really bad off and while I was explaining to the medics (different response team) that she wasn't a demensia patient, I lost it. I started crying, which I've never done before. The lead medic was so kind to me. He told me it was going to be okay, they'd take care of her. I said I knew they would. They're such a great bunch.

I was crying because I let the hosp. release her, even though I knew she was sick. Really, really sick. Hosp. dispoed her because she'd maxed out her ins. dates. It became a game, really. Call out EMS, sit in ER for six/eight hours, admit for three weeks, dispo, start again.

Oh, after over a year of this game, multiple Drs. and an uncanny amount of time spent in hospitals, we have discovered part of the problem is Hashimoto's. She crashed back in Jan. BS was at 14, hypothermic (temp at 87 for min. 2 hrs). Man that was a fun three days in ICU.
 

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Spookster said:
Well, since I got the thread off track, I figured I should get it back on. I found this great Human anatomy site, and thought it may be useful:

http://www.innerbody.com/

I know a similar website with a similar URL that also is great for anatomy! But I think it best if I not post it here. And of course, I've only heard about that site...I've never actually seen it.

I will be quiet now.

Brady H.
 

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A quick question for Liam:

You said the go-rilla was shot above the eye and it severed the vagus nerve? Was it a downward trajectory? The vagus nerves originate from the brainstem (Medulla Oblongata) and head downward. The massive shutdown you describe would not likely come from vagal damage, but from massive damage on the way down there. Sounds like he was charging head down, like a bull, rather than like a gorilla.
 

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Sorry for the extra entry, but this whole anatomy thing is great, but please, please, extend it to physiology as well. I am so tired of seeing (in film) and reading about someone urinating when scared. Hands up all those who've wet themselves when startled. The autonomic nervous system and urinary bladder are not meant to work that way. Under sympathetic control, the general musculature of the bladder relaxes while the spincter at the junction of the bladder and urethra constricts. Tough to pee this way unless the person has a problem with incontinence.

Another peeve. When a person is hit on the head hard enough to lose consciousness, there is no way he/she is going to get up and do something heroic. That person is going to be a very sick person. If there ever was a place where medical personnel would "patch 'em up and send 'em back in," it's pro football, and when there is a concussion with loss of consciousness, that player is done for that day and for (at least) several days afterward.

I have more, but these are the two most annoying. Anyone else want to chime in on appropriate/inappropriate physiological responses?
 

Liam Jackson

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NeuroFizz said:
A quick question for Liam:

You said the go-rilla was shot above the eye and it severed the vagus nerve? Was it a downward trajectory? The vagus nerves originate from the brainstem (Medulla Oblongata) and head downward. The massive shutdown you describe would not likely come from vagal damage, but from massive damage on the way down there. Sounds like he was charging head down, like a bull, rather than like a gorilla.

Nope, I didnt say the shot severed the Vagus or Vegas. I said he was shot above the eye. but managed to get up. After they all went back down in a heap, he died. Autopsy merely says he died from cardiac arrest, likley induced by trauma to the "V" nerve. The theory being someone stabbed him in the neck with a small, sharp instrument while in the pile up. That's a pretty target area anyway, as the carotid sheath is located beneath the jawline (enclosing the carotid artery, internal jugular vein, and vagus nerve). Chances are, the stabber was shooting for the carotid and actually came pretty close. There was no other cranial damage aside from minimal hydroshock to the right frontal lobe from the shot.

The .45 couldnt finish him off, but a pen knife or something similar did. Back in the day, several people died from a particular lateral restraint applied over the Vagus. The Vegas sends a really nasty message to the brain when it's compressed. Apparently, the puncture wound and subsequent injury was more than enough in go-rillas case.

The original post was intended as an anecdotal reference as to why neck wounds are risky buisness.

By the way, Welcome to the horror house!

LJ
 
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arrowqueen

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A good practical way to learn the basics of anatomy is to take a Red Cross First Aid course - with the added bonus of being able to save the odd life, in between bumping off your characters.
 

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Another good resource is the book "Howdunnnit." It's a detailed description of police procedure, from the innitial on-scene arrival through the autopsy. There are also sections on specific crimes, weapons, profiling perpitrators, etc.
Incidentally, one of my Karate instructors trains with a group of Philipino stick and knife fighters called "The Dog Brothers." I agree...Guns may be the only options against these guys.
 
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