Trigger-happy Neighborhood Watch Kills Black Teenager

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rugcat

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You will find in previous posts where I suggested that if there was a history of racial incidents involving Zimmerman, they would most likely come out. A couple of posts and news stories today seem to be doing just that.
I don't think it's a matter of whether Zimmerman is a racist, not in the sense that he had an animus against black people and was just looking for a chance to gun one down.

But what those tapes relate is him saying, "I think he's black" "Yeah, it a black male" and then "This guy looks like he’s on drugs, he’s definitely messed up.”

“There’s a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, on drugs or something.”

What led Zimmerman to this conclusion -- other than the fact that the teen was black?

I can't think of a more obvious case of finding someone "suspicious," of assigning criminal motives to someone, simply because he is black. That's the racial component, that because you are black, you are automatically assumed to be a criminal or a threat or both, and need to be dealt with. And that's what lead to the deadly confrontation.

And there's this:
Zimmerman wasn't arrested at the time, and ABC News has learned he was not given a drug or alcohol test that night -- standard in most homicide investigations.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborho...tch-guidelines/story?id=15955985#.T2fybIGn7d4

As a former police officer, this is beyond belief in terms of botching an investigation.

And as to the larger issue of Florida's deadly force carry permits, again, it's incomprehensible to me.

In Tallahassee in 2008, two rival gangs engaged in a neighborhood shootout, and a 15-year-old African American male was killed in the crossfire. The three defendants all either were acquitted or had their cases dismissed, because the defense successfully argued they were defending themselves under the "stand your ground" law.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

So in Florida, if you're killed in a crossfire from a gang shootout, that's just your tough luck. The shooter was just "standing his ground."
 

muravyets

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Looking at laws like that and situations like that, there really is not a lot that I can think to say about the state authorities of Florida that wouldn't be fairly taken as grossly insulting, and I would mean every word of it.

But aside from that, I'd like to +1 to rugcat's point that the published facts of Zimmerman's own statements in this incident are what show that it is fair and reasonable to focus on the racism element here. It wasn't outside observers jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. Zimmerman himself brought it in.

Also, Williebee, people have been saying "That's racist bullshit, how was it allowed to happen?" I was saying it, for one. More than that, I was asking "how can we figure out a way to make it stop happening?" That was the main reason I was getting annoyed with your responses, fyi.
 

backslashbaby

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I don't have time to pull all the articles together right now and organize quotes, but y'all take a look at the recent history of this police force. This chief was brought in 10 months ago because of a corruption scandal, and there was also an incident involving another shooting that was handled badly enough to cause outrage.

It appears that these cops don't have to fear the results of internal investigations, btw. Methinks not enough people were purged last year, probably.
 

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Last Word played the 911 tape of the call made by a neighbor who heard him calling for help. He must have been behind her house and you can clearly hear the boy yelling for help right up to the point of the gun shot. How could this guy have claimed any form of self-defense? The boy is clearly yelling for someone to help him. This was on Last Word, Mon 3/19/2012.

It is sad to think that his mother will hear that tape.
 

Don

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I don't have time to pull all the articles together right now and organize quotes, but y'all take a look at the recent history of this police force. This chief was brought in 10 months ago because of a corruption scandal, and there was also an incident involving another shooting that was handled badly enough to cause outrage.

It appears that these cops don't have to fear the results of internal investigations, btw. Methinks not enough people were purged last year, probably.
Yeah, I think the guy had buddies on the force and they've been working hard to protect him. I think this is gonna get ugly when the Feds get into the investigation, and a bunch of people are going down.
 

Monkey

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Good thing the Feds are getting involved instead of leaving it to the local yokels, eh Don?
 

Don

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Good thing the Feds are getting involved instead of leaving it to the local yokels, eh Don?
From the minarchist and/or Constitutional perspective, that's one of the valid jobs of the Feds, eh Monkey?
 

Monkey

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Well, depends on the minarchist/constitutionalist/whatever. Around these parts, we have folks who claim to be anarchist and would still agree that this is a valid use of federal power...

Point is, local government is not always better government. It's good to see you acknowledge that once in a while.
 

Mclesh

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Link to an article which talks about Trayvon's last phone call with a friend. Reading from his friend's perspective, Trayvon was being stalked by a strange man. It's pretty horrifying.

"In the final moments of his life, Trayvon Martin was being hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him, according to the teenage girl whose call logs show she was on the phone with the 17-year-old boy in the moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead."
 

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quicklime

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http://www.baynews9.com/content/new...s/articles/bn9/2012/3/20/report_trayvon_marti

Not sure if anyone has brought this point up already or not, but according to the news station above, Zimmerman had called police 5 times prior to this about suspicious persons... All of the black. All of you saying he wasn't waiting for the opportunity to shoot a black man, *rolls eyes*


i think that's a hell of a leap.

I can say, unfortunately, I grew up with plenty of maladjusted pricks who would have called the cops and otherwise harassed black guys without actually itching to pop one.


you can say he very likely had issues with black people, and his prejudice was pretty apparent. I don't think you can say he wanted to shoot one, I think he was one more dumb redneck who "planned to jail one of them trouble-makin black folks" and his shit got miles out of hand....mostly because he was an idiot.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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i think that's a hell of a leap.

I can say, unfortunately, I grew up with plenty of maladjusted pricks who would have called the cops and otherwise harassed black guys without actually itching to pop one.


you can say he very likely had issues with black people, and his prejudice was pretty apparent. I don't think you can say he wanted to shoot one, I think he was one more dumb redneck who "planned to jail one of them trouble-makin black folks" and his shit got miles out of hand....mostly because he was an idiot.

That does seem to have settled the issue of whether prejudice was a motivating factor. We're now at the question of what his intent was and what precipitated the actual shot. I don't know if that will be settleable in discussion rather than detective work (by whichever law enforcement agency actually does the real detective work).
 

missesdash

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That does seem to have settled the issue of whether prejudice was a motivating factor. We're now at the question of what his intent was and what precipitated the actual shot. I don't know if that will be settleable in discussion rather than detective work (by whichever law enforcement agency actually does the real detective work).

I'm also wary of the claims his tape says "fucking coons." It's blustery out and it was raining. It honestly sounds like "fucking coat" to me.
 

FabricatedParadise

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i think that's a hell of a leap.

I can say, unfortunately, I grew up with plenty of maladjusted pricks who would have called the cops and otherwise harassed black guys without actually itching to pop one.


you can say he very likely had issues with black people, and his prejudice was pretty apparent. I don't think you can say he wanted to shoot one, I think he was one more dumb redneck who "planned to jail one of them trouble-makin black folks" and his shit got miles out of hand....mostly because he was an idiot.

OK, you're right. I'll admit it was a bit of a leap, but you don't call the cops about black guys 6 different times, Unless you have a problem with black peopl and you don't approach a scared teenager walking down the street talking on his phone and confront him with a gun unless you plan to shoot him. Bottom line, the kid wasn't doing anything wrong and this putz followed him, pulled a gun on him and ultimately shot him... From what I understand, while he was calling for help.

Personally, I think he planned to shoot him from the outset and only called the cops because he thought it would help his "self defense" story. Why else would he confront the boy after the dispatcher told him not to?

After all is said and done, a boy, someone's son, is dead because this idiot had a problem with his color.
 

quicklime

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i agree the kid is dead in part because he had the simple audacity to be born black.

as for the guy setting out to kill someone, I'd think all the calls if anything suggest he'd be a fucking moron to do so; if that was the plan, why leave that much backtrail to build a case that you had a beef? On the flip side, most criminals seem to be half as bright as they think they are...at best.
 

rugcat

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Personally, I think he planned to shoot him from the outset and only called the cops because he thought it would help his "self defense" story. Why else would he confront the boy after the dispatcher told him not to?
We can't know what was in his mind. I think it more likely that his perception of himself as the "protector" of the neighborhood against evil people, esp black men, made him feel he was empowered to stop and control anyone he believed suspicious. If the suspect put up any resistance or refused to submit, deadly force was an allowable option.

A subtle distinction, though, and certainly one that is irrelevant to the victim.

It's interesting to note that since Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged, he currently has the legal right to carry a gun and continue his "neighborhood watch" activities if he wishes to.
 

robeiae

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Link to an article which talks about Trayvon's last phone call with a friend. Reading from his friend's perspective, Trayvon was being stalked by a strange man. It's pretty horrifying.

"In the final moments of his life, Trayvon Martin was being hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him, according to the teenage girl whose call logs show she was on the phone with the 17-year-old boy in the moments before neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman shot him dead."
That is--in my view--damning evidence. And it's evidence the police should gotten to a long time ago.

Every news story I see on this references the "stand your ground" law, but I don't see its applicability at all here, insofar as it could prevent Zimmerman's arrest. The evidence--from the above phone call and the 911 call by Zimmerman--suggests he pursued Martin and in such a scenario, the stand your ground exception has no place.

It's a vigilante and a lazy and/or corrupt police force that's the problem, not that specific law.

Details.

Said Baxley: “There’s nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue and confront people, particularly if law enforcement has told you to stay put. I don’t see why this statute is being challenged in this case. That is to prevent you from being attacked by other people.”
Baxley is one of the original authors of the legislation, fyi. And this isn't to say the legislation is good or bad, just that it shouldn't be relevant to this situation.
 

vsrenard

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OK, you're right. I'll admit it was a bit of a leap, but you don't call the cops about black guys 6 different times, Unless you have a problem with black peopl and you don't approach a scared teenager walking down the street talking on his phone and confront him with a gun unless you plan to shoot him. Bottom line, the kid wasn't doing anything wrong and this putz followed him, pulled a gun on him and ultimately shot him... From what I understand, while he was calling for help.

Unless the demographics of your neighborhood are such that the majority of criminals in your area are black.

I have no idea if that's the cae here but I see far too many people jumping to conclusions before we know the full story. The evidence released so far looks damning enough, at least at present.
 

muravyets

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i agree the kid is dead in part because he had the simple audacity to be born black.

as for the guy setting out to kill someone, I'd think all the calls if anything suggest he'd be a fucking moron to do so; if that was the plan, why leave that much backtrail to build a case that you had a beef? On the flip side, most criminals seem to be half as bright as they think they are...at best.
Considering the response of his local police, it seems Zimmerman wasn't being that stupid, really. If he assumed he would be allowed to instigate a confrontation, shoot the other guy, claim self-defense and get away with it, he was right. Seems he really had no need to hide anything at all, whatever his intent may have been. I happen to agree with rugcat's suggestion on that.


Unless the demographics of your neighborhood are such that the majority of criminals in your area are black.

I have no idea if that's the cae here but I see far too many people jumping to conclusions before we know the full story. The evidence released so far looks damning enough, at least at present.
A demographic of majority black criminals may, by some measures, possibly justify a nervousness towards black people -- though an argument for that would have be a damned sight better than any I've ever heard to hold water, imo -- but it in no way justifies pursuing a young black man and instigating a confrontation, against the direct instructions of the police at the time. As you say the evidence released to date is damning enough. Whatever demographics Zimmerman may have been exposed to won't help him a bit.

Not that he'd need help if the only ones judging him are those cops. I don't know whether anything will come of it, but I am really happy the DA has empaneled a grand jury for this and the DoJ is looking into it as well.
 

vsrenard

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A demographic of majority black criminals may, by some measures, possibly justify a nervousness towards black people -- though an argument for that would have be a damned sight better than any I've ever heard to hold water, imo -- but it in no way justifies pursuing a young black man and instigating a confrontation, against the direct instructions of the police at the time. As you say the evidence released to date is damning enough. Whatever demographics Zimmerman may have been exposed to won't help him a bit.


I didn't mean to imply that it did. It just might go toward explaining why he had a history of calling the police with suspicions against black individuals. It could be pure racism too. I don't think we have enough evidence to say that his history of calls to the police demonstrates a clear racial bias. But there is plenty of other evidence emerging that suggests that.
 

muravyets

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I didn't mean to imply that it did. It just might go toward explaining why he had a history of calling the police with suspicions against black individuals. It could be pure racism too. I don't think we have enough evidence to say that his history of calls to the police demonstrates a clear racial bias. But there is plenty of other evidence emerging that suggests that.
Fair enough. Though I personally would dispute whether, for anyone since we don't know this about Zimmerman, living in a place where a lot of the local criminals are black -- which, in most places, would probably make most of the local non-criminals black, too -- would justify freaking out at the sight of a black person walking down the street in the rain. That's just me.
 
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