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Noble Romance Publishing

Ralyks

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I've seen many small press contracts where the option clause has more ambiguous language--the publisher doesn't claim right of first refusal, but right of first offer. In this case, the clause often doesn't provide an option for the author to refuse if an offer is made, the implication being that if the publisher does make an offer, the author is bound by it. Often the language will include something to the effect that the new offer will be "on the same terms and conditions" as the old, giving the author no opportunity to negotiate better terms for a second book.

I have signed a contract with another small publisher that said more or less that (right of first offer on same terms as this existing contract). I was fine with the terms of that contract and thus willing (if not thrilled, because one always hopes for better) to sign on.

Has anyone had any new experience with Noble since the new CEO took over? I'd be interested in an update.
 

veinglory

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The perpetual right to new books under old terms is a hallmark of one or two small erotic romance presses, and IMHO the reason I don't submit to them. Things change, and so it is never a good idea to lock any every book in a genre that you ever write in your lifetime to a specific contract with a particular publisher.
 

Ralyks

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I've never seen a clause that applies to any and every book you write. Typically the sequel, if you write one, or maybe the next in that genre, but one book, not any and every. Unless you meant "any" book. But yeah, that clause is unfortunate. (It worked out for me fine the first time, fortuantely, but I don't know if I'd sign such a clause again.)
 

Ralyks

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I have and they are, in general, some of the ugliest contracts a publisher can issue. I've turned down two with this type of clause. Nor would the publishers negotiate.

Wow, that's pretty crazy. Yeah, I'd have to turn down any contract that asked for rights of first offer on any book I ever wrote in the future, that's for sure. Just the "next book in the series" is enough to make me a little nervous.
 

victoriastrauss

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I've never seen a clause that applies to any and every book you write. Typically the sequel, if you write one, or maybe the next in that genre, but one book, not any and every. Unless you meant "any" book.
But if you sign a contract with a "first offer on the same terms" clause, the second contract will have the same clause. And the third. And so on. If indeed the publisher doesn't give you the option to refuse an offer, they do wind up with what amounts to a perpetual option--for as long as they keep making offers, anyway.

Like michael_b, I've seen option clauses that do specifically make claims on all future books in the same genre, all sequels and series and books featuring the same characters and/or settings, or all future books period. There's a lot of contractual ugliness out there in the small press world.

- Victoria
 

michael_b

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I'd rather pay an agent a fraction of even $100 than get stuck in a contract that is not to my advantage.

And I'd rather not sign a contract with a publisher that feels they need rights grabbing clauses. A story that's good for one publisher is likely good for many others. I just send the story out somewhere else.
 

Ralyks

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But if you sign a contract with a "first offer on the same terms" clause, the second contract will have the same clause. And the third. And so on. If indeed the publisher doesn't give you the option to refuse an offer, they do wind up with what amounts to a perpetual option--for as long as they keep making offers, anyway.

Like michael_b, I've seen option clauses that do specifically make claims on all future books in the same genre, all sequels and series and books featuring the same characters and/or settings, or all future books period. There's a lot of contractual ugliness out there in the small press world.

- Victoria


Ah, I see what you mean, that's circular. But my second contract didn't come with claims for a third book with that other publisher, and I don't think that was what the publisher intended with the first contract, but giving the wording, it's possible she could have done that had she wanted, which could indeed lock a writer in forever. (At the time, I had the impression it applied only to the next book, so maybe something more clarifying was in there later. I must go back and look.) The Noble Romance clause applies to sequels only. Since I don't write series (only stand alones), that wouldn't really affect me.
 
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veinglory

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Wow, that's pretty crazy. Yeah, I'd have to turn down any contract that asked for rights of first offer on any book I ever wrote in the future, that's for sure. Just the "next book in the series" is enough to make me a little nervous.

Ellora's Cave at one time (I have not seen a contract recently) claimed every subsequent book in the genres they publish.
 

victoriastrauss

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I don't think that was what the publisher intended with the first contract
I think this is often the case, especially where publishers' staff don't have a lot of experience and may not fully understand the wording or the implications of their own contracts.

But the bottom line for a writer is that what's in the contract governs the relationship (conversely, what's not in the contract can't be assumed)--so you need to consider the letter of the contract, not what the publisher may intend or may assure you it intends, when deciding to sign.

- Victoria
 

Fae Sutherland

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Ellora's Cave at one time (I have not seen a contract recently) claimed every subsequent book in the genres they publish.

I've been pubbed with EC since 2007 and there's never been a clause claiming every subsequent book in that time. How long ago are you talking about, Emily?

There is a ROFR clause, but it extends only to the authors NEXT book in the romance/erotic romance genre, of a certain word count. Nothing scary or overly restrictive about it. I also, personally, found the publisher very easy to deal with when I wanted to send my next work elsewhere due to the fact that I was pretty confident my EC editor would despise my super-beta hero and I didn't want to waste her time (or mine) submitting a book I knew wasn't a good fit for them. They waived the clause for that book without a bit of fuss. *shrug*
 
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The EC contract I was shown by another author back in about 2004/2005 was a "next book on same terms as this book" - with no restriction as to genre. Not just an option on first look at it, where you could refuse their offer and take it elsewhere after so many months, but a first offer option where as long as they offered you the same contract, you had to give them the book. With the same clause in the contract obliging you to give them your next book. Which meant that until they chose to not take a book, you were locked to them for the rest of your career.

A year or two later they loosened the restriction to "next book in a genre we publish". Which actually makes it *harder* to get out, because now you can't just present them with a cookbook to break the perpetual option cycle of next book on same terms as this book.

And I do know authors who say they have had cause to regret that clause, to the extent of setting up a new pseudonym. Or sending EC an epic fantasy novel as their next book...
 

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I signed a contract with EC about a year ago - the original contract contained a term giving them rights of first refusal on my next novella or novel in the genre of erotic romance. But there was no problem getting the term modified to be rights of first refusal on any work using the same characters.

And it was never set up to be on the same terms as my first contract - they had 60 days to decide if they wanted to offer, and then we had 60 days to negotiate an agreement. If no agreement was reached after that time, their rights expired.

I guess all the variation is just a good reminder to us that we should always read our contracts! And that we shouldn't be shy about asking for changes.
 

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There have been a variety of experiences with EC. But at least for a while a clause for the next book on the same terms was in effect perpetual--because that next contract will seize there next book and so on.

Some authors got the clause struck, others were refused that request point blank. I don't know what their current boilerplate says.
 

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It's still there as of my last contact with an editor at the house in May.

Weird, my contracts don't say that. In fact, exactly the opposite. There's absolutely nothing about being required to agree to a contract with the same terms as a previous one. It specifically states negotiation is allowed and has a very clear "Nope, I don't like the contract terms so I'm taking my book elsewhere" out for the author.
 

michael_b

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Weird, my contracts don't say that. In fact, exactly the opposite. There's absolutely nothing about being required to agree to a contract with the same terms as a previous one. It specifically states negotiation is allowed and has a very clear "Nope, I don't like the contract terms so I'm taking my book elsewhere" out for the author.

You aren't new to EC and likely discussed terms and have those already in all your contracts. This is how I was told it would work. I'd have to negotiate the terms that were important to me and get them struck from the boilerplate.

This editor is also gone from EC.
 

Fae Sutherland

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You aren't new to EC and likely discussed terms and have those already in all your contracts. This is how I was told it would work. I'd have to negotiate the terms that were important to me and get them struck from the boilerplate.

This editor is also gone from EC.

No, I never 'discussed terms' with anyone at EC, nor did I get anything struck from the contract ever. I was comfortable with the standard contract and that is what I signed each and every time. No alterations, my contract IS the boilerplate.

Out of curiosity, because I was concerned it might have changed since the last time I signed a contract in 2010, I went and got a copy of the most recent boilerplate. The ROFR clause is exactly as I stated above, with no mention of being required to accept the same terms with no negotiation, with a very clear and outlined timetable for negotiations, and an equally clear out for the author if they decide they don't like the contract offered to them, allowing them to then take the work to any other pub free and clear. So I really have no idea what you're talking about here.
 

veinglory

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Well, we are talking about a clause EC has had on some contracts, at some times--but apparently not yours. Unless the multiple authors reporting that clause were part of some complicated multi-year hoax.
 

Fae Sutherland

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Well, we are talking about a clause EC has had on some contracts, at some times--but apparently not yours. Unless the multiple authors reporting that clause were part of some complicated multi-year hoax.

Well, if you're saying it's only in some contracts some of the time, then it's not boilerplate, is it? That's my point. The way it was said implied that this super restrictive ROFR clause is in every base EC contract and must either be lived with or negotiated out. I'm saying no, that's untrue. The end.
 

KimJo

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Just a suggestion... maybe the stuff about the Ellora's Cave contracts should be moved to the Ellora's Cave thread? (I know there's one on them here somewhere...)