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The Zharmae Publishing Press

CoffeeAndCharacters

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So I would hope that those interested in submitting to TZPP would be aware that all contracts are negotiable and that the author is the one in control of making the decision as to whether to sign on with a publisher or not. Author Dan Pike recently signed with TZPP and wrote a short but sweet blog post on his positive experience signing on http://pikeknight.com/2013/07/27/five-benefits-of-a-small-press/

I think all authors should consider that they are in control and that they should not limit their scope of considered publishers based on a contract that they can absolutely change :)
 

Round Two

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So I would hope that those interested in submitting to TZPP would be aware that all contracts are negotiable and that the author is the one in control of making the decision as to whether to sign on with a publisher or not. Author Dan Pike recently signed with TZPP and wrote a short but sweet blog post on his positive experience signing on http://pikeknight.com/2013/07/27/five-benefits-of-a-small-press/

I think all authors should consider that they are in control and that they should not limit their scope of considered publishers based on a contract that they can absolutely change :)

From the linked blog -

I confirmed with Professor of Great Renown that it was an industry standard contract save for a few sticking points, which I came back and successfully negotiated with no issues.

I think we're all of the opinion that the contract, for better or worse, is not anywhere near industry standard. That's even by Travis' own admission.

Also, it looks like the author's previous publishing experience is with Xlibris, thirteen years ago. There's mention of a book with Baen, but I can't find any record of it being published, though he says:

My first “official” novel, The Dream Box, which made it to the “top 1%” at Baen, is currently being considered by TZPP.

What does that mean? Top 1% selling? Because if that's the case, I don't know why Baen wouldn't still be publishing him.

If it means that it made it to some editorial desk higher up the chain than say, the intern reading the slushpile, that kind of praise isn't really relevant to anything and subject to all sorts of manipulation, hyperbole, graciousness. A book was either acquired and published or it wasn't. I can't tell, given the nature of the write up on the author's website, which category The Dream Box fits.

If the author's experience is a contract with Xlibris thirteen years ago, some praise from people at Baen (absent any contract offering), and now TZPP, I'm not sure he's qualified to say what industry standard is.
 
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folclor

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Um... I know I said I wouldn't reply again in this thread until after my first book came out but... I've been following avidly and I do have a few things to say.

I'm actually quite surprised and...encouraged that experienced authors would want to look out for newbies like me. There are a lot of points brought up in this thread that I'd never even considered (the rate of royalty, distribution possibilities, how industry standard the contract is or isn't, etc). I've learned quite a lot from following this thread and I appreciate everyone who's put in their time and effort into replying here.

I'm trying not to be one of those newbies who jumps to the defense of his or her publisher because I've not gone through the process fully yet so I can't speak to a lot of the issues that are brought up. But I can tell you what I have experienced thus far:

A responsive team of people who respond within a day or so of any email I send (granted, I'd hope this is standard for any publisher or agency). I was included in the process of selecting a cover artist for my series and I've received suggestions for edits that have helped me to create a better story. Once again, I think this may be standard, at least when it comes to edits, though possibly when it comes to the cover artist as well.

I can't say what tomorrow will bring. I'm a very new author and have only ever been offered one other contract which was worse than the contract I was offered at Zharmae, so I have much to learn.

If y'all have any questions for me, specifically, I'll be glad to answer them as best I can, either here or in PM. I know my experience doesn't change the issues with the contract.
 

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So I would hope that those interested in submitting to TZPP would be aware that all contracts are negotiable and that the author is the one in control of making the decision as to whether to sign on with a publisher or not.

You can't negotiate away the way their "profit share" business model ensures all their costs are covered before they then pay themselves a bit of extra too, while simultaneously disregarding all of their editors' or authors' costs.

You can't negotiate the contract to a point where Zharmae is likely to sell your book in reasonable amount.

You can't negotiate the contract to a point where Zharmae will stop trying to reinvent the publishing wheel.

Author Dan Pike recently signed with TZPP and wrote a short but sweet blog post on his positive experience signing on http://pikeknight.com/2013/07/27/five-benefits-of-a-small-press/

From that linked blog:

As of last week, I signed my life away on a three-book deal with TZPP. I’m expecting the first round of edits for my novel, The Dream Box, sometime this weekend.

I wonder how long the novel is, and how many days it took to get those edits to the author. It looks pretty swift to me.

Much of that blog post is spent complaining about bigger publishers and their apparent lack of professionalism. I smell a whiff of rejection-angst there, but I don't see any solid understanding of publishing. Nor do I see much of an analysis of the benefits of working with small presses, which the piece is meant to explain.

I think all authors should consider that they are in control and that they should not limit their scope of considered publishers based on a contract that they can absolutely change :)

Of course authors are in control. Of course they should consider the contract they're being asked to sign. But as I said before, the main problems with the contract aren't negotiable.
 

CoffeeAndCharacters

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Wow, alot has happened while I've been away so I suppose I'll have to check back more often so I don't have to play catch up.

I guess my main thought is that...If someone doesn't like TZPPs contract don't sign it. If you're researching publishers prior to submitting work as I believe most do, then you'd see the contract for TZPP (and most other independent publishers) online and can make an educated decision as to whether you want to continue and even bother submitting.

I think we are all adults, capable of making decisions, and I'm sure new and established authors alike both appreciate advice and suggestions but at the same time, I do not believe TZPP is out to get anyone. They're goal is not to screw authors over, its goal, like most other presses is to establish a long lasting and successful relationship with their authors.

I think a significant amount of this tread as well as treads on other press' forums, severely discourage new authors from taking many small presses into consideration and I honestly feel that unless you have signed with said press and had a negative experience yourself that you can speak of...well...

people should just think for themselves. (I feel like this sounds witchy which is not my intention so please keep that in mind :)

We all will have our own opinion on contracts, thats a given. I do though appreciate that TZPP is atleast open about their information and not trying to be sneaky or dishonest
 

eqb

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I guess my main thought is that...If someone doesn't like TZPPs contract don't sign it.

Of course.

The point of this thread is to provide information on the publisher so that authors can make informed decisions.

The information is rather telling. Non-standard contracts. Lack of experience in the industry. And a curious blindness about that inexperience.
 

thothguard51

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I think we are all adults, capable of making decisions, and I'm sure new and established authors alike both appreciate advice and suggestions but at the same time, I do not believe TZPP is out to get anyone. They're goal is not to screw authors over, its goal, like most other presses is to establish a long lasting and successful relationship with their authors.

Please take no offense but bragging about a lasting and successful relationship with their authors is a sales pitch and at this time, only time will tell. A contract is what binds a writer to the publisher and vise-versa. We try to look beyond the sales pitch.

I think a significant amount of this tread as well as treads on other press' forums, severely discourage new authors from taking many small presses into consideration and I honestly feel that unless you have signed with said press and had a negative experience yourself that you can speak of...well...
people should just think for themselves. (I feel like this sounds witchy which is not my intention so please keep that in mind :)

Yes, people should research and think for themselves but there are lots of new writers just coming into the market that have no idea what questions to ask, or what is fair.

For an example of a publisher with good intentions but totally fell apart inside of two years, see this thread...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177833

Very interesting reading from start to finish, and some big name authors did sign with them because the publisher was sincere and open and well...

We all will have our own opinion on contracts, thats a given. I do though appreciate that TZPP is atleast open about their information and not trying to be sneaky or dishonest.

No one has said TZPP is sneaky or dishonest.

While you may understand terms and conditions of a contract and are willing to give TZPP rights they have shown no capability of using or selling at this point in time, there are other writers here who do not understand.

As has been said many times in this thread, and others, only time will tell.

But yes, we do appreciate Travis coming in and answering questions and even changing things up in his contract. Still, only time will tell...
 
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Little Ming

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I guess my main thought is that...If someone doesn't like TZPPs contract don't sign it. If you're researching publishers prior to submitting work as I believe most do, then you'd see the contract for TZPP (and most other independent publishers) online and can make an educated decision as to whether you want to continue and even bother submitting.

(emphasis mine)

Yes, and as part of the "educated decision" is knowing what is industry standard, what isn't and ultimately what does that mean for the author. That's why this thread, and many others in Bewares, are so important, to "educated" new writers so they know what they are getting into.

I think we are all adults, capable of making decisions, and I'm sure new and established authors alike both appreciate advice and suggestions but at the same time, I do not believe TZPP is out to get anyone. They're goal is not to screw authors over, its goal, like most other presses is to establish a long lasting and successful relationship with their authors.

I don't think anyone has said TZPP wants "screw authors over." But if you read through Bewares you will find many new publishers got started wanting to "establish a long lasting and successful relationship with their authors," but ultimately because they were so inexperienced the end effect was unintentionally "screwing" over their authors.

I think a significant amount of this tread as well as treads on other press' forums, severely discourage new authors from taking many small presses into consideration

If you read the Index, you will find many grayed out links. Those are the publishers that have gone under, and some of them took their writers' books with them. Most of these publishers did not intend to "screw over their authors," but that is what they did.

There are also many good small presses out there.

and I honestly feel that unless you have signed with said press and had a negative experience yourself that you can speak of...well...

Disagree. Strongly. From Why Publishers Fail:

...

These might sound ridiculous to you and I can hear you say they "could never happen to me" but in each case, the people involved said the same thing.

What happens after one of the scenario melt-downs? Well, then we get a flood of people here at AW, asking why WE didn’t ask more questions. Why we industry professionals didn’t warn people at the beginning, when we knew it was LIKELY to happen. We used to try to explain that everybody gets a chance to open their doors and give starting a business a shot. But over the years, we’ve gotten to the point where it’s easier to ask the tough questions up front and risk hurting the feelings of one publisher than soothe anger and frustrations of dozens of authors after the blood and dust settle.

So, if you’re a new publisher, or an author looking to hire on with an editor, know that yes—we WILL ask the tough questions. We will question your plan, your goals , your experience, your qualifications, your background and sometimes your integrity. They’re questions people looking to place their "baby", their novel or NF book, want to know. Editors trying to hire on, and cover artists placing their work also want to know. They deserve to know if you, the publisher, have your plan in place and your ducks in a row.
As you said yourself, this is about making an "educated decision." There are members here with decades of experience in publishing. If they see a problem, I want to know. I don't want to have to wait for problems to start coming to the surface. By then it's usually too late.
 
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Terie

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I think a significant amount of this tread as well as treads on other press' forums, severely discourage new authors from taking many small presses into consideration and I honestly feel that unless you have signed with said press and had a negative experience yourself that you can speak of...well...

Do you need to jump off a cliff to know it's a bad idea? Do you need to take crack cocaine to know it's a bad idea? Do you need to rob a bank to know it's a bad idea?
 

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So, I said on my confused 'What do I do now?' Thread that I'd post on the relevant thread when I had closure on my lame decision making process.

I had an offer from Zharmae on my Abendau trilogy, which was really encouraging as I had only started subbing to small presses - and was targeting those who offered an advance, as I believed at the time Zharmae did - after deciding the agent route wasn't paying off for the trilogy. To complicate this, I have a second novel doing well with agents, so I had a confused mish-mash of agents, publishers and books. Plus a certain big unagented submission window that I haven't been kicked out of (yet) so my hands were tied in terms of decisions until I unravelled some of those strands.

Ultimately I refused the offer. I have had another offer from a start up press which has offered an advance and is letting me be very closely involved in the design, approach, everything, so that was part of the reason I made the decision, but the key deciding factors for me were the contract terms around costs deduction before royalties, and the number of debut authors signed up at once.

I found Zharmae pleasant to deal with. The contract terms I first voiced concerns over were easily negotiated, and the marketing plan seemed sound (although the twitter approach of seeking sign ups for cover reveals didn't work for me, I really just want to see the cover and retweet if it's lush, without giving up my details, but that might be old fashioned of me). There was no pressure on me to make a decision, all emails were informative, friendly and relevant.

I hope I am wrong to fear that the contract terms will leave authors working very hard for their money, and I wish everyone signed all the very best, and hope to be proved wrong.
 
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Undercover

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I was interested in Zharmae two years ago when I first started this thread. I've seen some bumps along the way, but it looks like they are working through them. I haven't seen the site in a while, so I was surprised to see it's updated version, more titles, good cover designs imo. They have a growing number of imprints. But I was disappointed to see they no longer pay advances, although it seems they are open to changing that.

I'd like to submit to the YA imprint, but I'm wondering if waiting a little longer would be better. Just to see how they're going to approach the teen cover art thing.
 

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But I was disappointed to see they no longer pay advances, although it seems they are open to changing that.

Absolutely!!! My agent and I waaaaaay back there, got all excited about them for my thriller and got hung up in an R&R that went nowhere over a period of six months. Then, when I subbed the second YA to them, I find out that the advance has been abolished. Ugh. Not to say that the new editors are evil or anything--quite the opposite--they're enthusiastic, thorough and precise--quick and cordial too.
 

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Do you need to take crack cocaine to know it's a bad idea?

Now, now, let's not automatically accept certain autonomously accept curtains automobile except croissant! Because otherwise, be curse mother lice, bereaved older mice...
 

Undercover

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Yeah Tri, thanks for agreeing with me. You'd think a publisher would want to keep their advances, or even raise them, not get rid of them. To me (not saying they are) but to me, no matter how much better it is royalty wise, it's a step down imo. Advances are a huge perk and offering it in the past, then not offering it now (no matter how good they think it is) to the author (which may need up front money on it now) it's not good.

If a publisher offered a 10K advance, or said will pay you 10K or the course of the year. I'd rather the lump sum. I know that royalties don't start until the advance is paid. But getting money up front guarantees the author money, and right away and doesn't have to wait and it shows the publisher has faith in the writer big time, especially if the advance is in the 4 digits and up.

Anyway, I do like their covers. It'd be a little leary and wait on all their imprints. Just seems like an awful lot of imprints.
 

kaitie

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My first thought (and I could be wrong) is that eliminating the advance means they can't afford the advance. Which would worry me.
 

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They're advertising for a copyeditor on the San Francisco craigslist:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/wrg/4076783001.html

I was thinking of applying until I saw the pay: 3 percent on royalties. That seems...risky, to say the least. Is that at all typical, does anyone know?

Oh, dear. So what they're calling a copyeditor is "a recent graduate with some editing experience and a close attention to detail" who will have to take a "short proofreading test". This is a terrible way to hire a copyeditor and a great way to get books that are riddled with errors and inconsistencies.

Then they're proposing to pay 3% royalties (and sloppily don't mention whether that's net or not) for a full-time copyediting job. 20 books a year is quite a few - it's probably a little under half as many as our in-house copyeditor gets through in a year. Your minimum rate as a freelance copyed should be about £25/hr. So this is probably about £20K worth of freelance work.

So to make your £20K in royalties, these 20 books are going to need to earn about £30K each, which works out to, ooh, 8-10K copies each, I'd say. I wonder if that's likely?
 

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I guess my main thought is that...If someone doesn't like TZPPs contract don't sign it. If you're researching publishers prior to submitting work as I believe most do, then you'd see the contract for TZPP (and most other independent publishers) online and can make an educated decision as to whether you want to continue and even bother submitting.

Helping people make educated decisions is what this subforum is all about. For example, if you don't know what other contracts look like, how could you tell if TZPP's is a good deal compared to others?

I think a significant amount of this tread as well as treads on other press' forums, severely discourage new authors from taking many small presses into consideration

Yeah, you know what? Purely in general terms, I'd say the bigger the press the better. This is because they have more money. With more money, they are able to hire better staff (better than an amateur copyed sourced on Craigslist and paid on royalties, as per TZPP), they're able to spend on marketing and retailer support, they get better terms from suppliers and retailers, and they're unlikely to suddenly find they have no money to pay royalties because they've made some bad bets.

If you flick back through the B&BC archives you'll see plenty of small presses who showed up and flamed out, often taking authors' money and books with them. The same tends not to be true for, say, HarperCollins.

There are some good small presses run in a professional way, yes. There are also a lot of very bad and in fact abusive ones. I will admit to a prejudice purely on the statistics.

EDIT: Oh, basically all said above by other people. Sorry!
 
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thothguard51

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Shakes head.

What does TZPP's help wanted ad really say...

Anyone who applies will be working for chump change in a sweat house atmosphere. You will be working for months and months without any income until the book is out and the sales start dribbling in.
 

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I was thinking of applying until I saw the pay: 3 percent on royalties. That seems...risky, to say the least. Is that at all typical, does anyone know?
It's my impression that quite a few small presses use this method of paying editors and other production staff--it's a way for the publisher to reduce its cash outlays by forcing its staff to take on a share of its own financial risk. Great for the publisher, which only has to pay if it gets paid--potentially lousy for the staff person, who, given the unpredictability of book sales, has no idea at all what they may or may not earn.

3% seems unusually low to me for this kind of arrangement.

Also--3% on royalties? Or 3% on the amount the publisher uses to calculate royalties (in this case, net profit?) 3% of net profit is bad enough--but if it's 3% of what the author earns, then it's really a pittance.

- Victoria
 
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Torgo

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Also--3% on royalties? Or 3% on the amount the publisher uses to calculate royalties (in this case, net profit?) 3% of net profit is bad enough--but if it's 3% of what the author earns, then it's really a pittance.

- Victoria

Really sloppy not to specify, isn't it? Could mean anything.
 

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It's my impression that quite a few small presses use this method of paying editors and other production staff--it's a way for the publisher to reduce its cash outlays by forcing its staff to take on a share of its own financial risk. Great for the publisher, which only has to pay if it gets paid--potentially lousy for the staff person, who, given the unpredictability of book sales, has no idea at all what they may or may not earn.

Victoria, this is so true because this is what I've been seeing and hearing among a wide range of small press editorial policies. I just can't see how this is profitable for an freelance editors who would have to make multiple passes over a manuscript and, yet, meet a deadline quota for multiple books within a year.

tri
 

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While some good editors try to work this way in the long term, it just isn't lucrative enough for them to continue. Which means that just about all the presses which pay their editors in this way end up with most of their editors being less-than-stellar, so their books aren't edited as well as they should be.

And that means they don't sell as many books as they would like to, so they can't afford to pay their editors better, so their books aren't so good and so they don't sell, and so on and so forth.

Running a good publishing house is expensive. It's very difficult to do it on the cheap.