Self Publishing and ISBNs

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jnfr

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I think that's true, but to be fair the business of publishing is changing very fast, and I think this business of how to accurately ID editions needs to be updated somehow.

When any of us can upload pretty much anything with no ID number except what our distributor provides, the idea of charging $125 for one ID number is pretty much doomed. That's basic marketplace dynamics.

And yet there's still a need to accurately ID and separate various titles and authors and editions. I have no idea what will come into place to help that happen, but I hope something fast and inexpensive comes soon.
 

Katie Elle

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I think that's true, but to be fair the business of publishing is changing very fast, and I think this business of how to accurately ID editions needs to be updated somehow.

The question of "what is an edition?" is really relevant because with ebooks, it's all very Buddhist. There is no future or past, only now.

It's not as if you can go to your local indie and say "I'd like the Kindle edition of Wool, please order that. Not the one available now, the earlier one." You order Wool from Amazon and you get the current Amazon edition. Hugh Howey uploads it there. If he changes it, he changes it, and there are no used versions available for resale.

On the other hand, if you want a physical book, you can walk into your indie bookshop and say "I figure Hugh Howey is going to have a brilliant career and I want the first edition of Wool because I figure I can sell it in 20 years and put my daughter through college. The Createspace edition, not the Simon and Schuster one." They can order that. Because it exists. It's a thing. An ebook is not a thing and the ISBN arrangements are for things.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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On the other hand, if you want a physical book, you can walk into your indie bookshop and say "I figure Hugh Howey is going to have a brilliant career and I want the first edition of Wool because I figure I can sell it in 20 years and put my daughter through college. The Createspace edition, not the Simon and Schuster one." They can order that. Because it exists. It's a thing. An ebook is not a thing and the ISBN arrangements are for things.

OT, this is one of the reasons I haven't bought "Wool" and probably never will. I don't want to have to track down different versions, additional chapters written specifically for overseas editions and all the variations on a theme. When I buy a book I want the FINAL product, not a work constantly in flux.

Just a grumble.
 

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The question of "what is an edition?" is really relevant because with ebooks, it's all very Buddhist. There is no future or past, only now.

This is a great point. The way ebooks are published definitely contributes to the problem. KDP and all the other vendor portals encourage authors to "update in place." It is far easier to update an existing edition than it is to create a new one. You know for sure you won't lose your reviews or your sales ranking that way.

In many respects, the update-in-place approach makes sense. If you release a new edition of your book, you want to take the old edition "out of print" anyway. In the digital world, that means you replace the old edition with the new one. You can optionally use the "Edition Number" field at Amazon to give readers a clue as to what you've done, or you could even change the ISBN number to a new one.

Add to that the problem that you have to update your ebook in every portal you've used. In effect, YOU are the digital distributor for your books. Some authors have started putting a revision number on their copyright page so they can track which version of their book is shipping from which vendor.

It's a complex problem, and I don't expect it to have a simple solution.
 

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I think that's true, but to be fair the business of publishing is changing very fast, and I think this business of how to accurately ID editions needs to be updated somehow.

When any of us can upload pretty much anything with no ID number except what our distributor provides, the idea of charging $125 for one ID number is pretty much doomed. That's basic marketplace dynamics.

And yet there's still a need to accurately ID and separate various titles and authors and editions. I have no idea what will come into place to help that happen, but I hope something fast and inexpensive comes soon.

Publishing has always changed, and those changes often happen fast. This is nothing new.

Further, you're looking at this from a very limited point of view: your own. You see that it might cost you $125 for a single ISBN and you think that's expensive; a trade publisher will look at the cost of buying a thousand and consider it negligible.

I realise you can get a number for free from Smashwords etc: but that free number doesn't give you all the information and benefits that a "real" ISBN confers, it comes with its own set of problems, and it's just not comparable.

The ISBN system of "one edition, one number" works really well for trade publishing. Self published writers could adopt it, but the frequently-seen willingness to update books after they've been published does, as you point out, make such a scheme unreliable.

But that's not a problem with the ISBN scheme: it's a fault of the people using it, who don't understand how it works and what it signifies.

The question of "what is an edition?" is really relevant because with ebooks, it's all very Buddhist. There is no future or past, only now.

It's not as if you can go to your local indie and say "I'd like the Kindle edition of Wool, please order that. Not the one available now, the earlier one." You order Wool from Amazon and you get the current Amazon edition. Hugh Howey uploads it there. If he changes it, he changes it, and there are no used versions available for resale.

On the other hand, if you want a physical book, you can walk into your indie bookshop and say "I figure Hugh Howey is going to have a brilliant career and I want the first edition of Wool because I figure I can sell it in 20 years and put my daughter through college. The Createspace edition, not the Simon and Schuster one." They can order that. Because it exists. It's a thing. An ebook is not a thing and the ISBN arrangements are for things.

Katie, you're also looking at this solely from your own point of view. Trade publishers treat ISBNs for e-books as unique identifiers, just as they do for print editions. The issues you describe relate to self published books or books from publishers who don't use the system properly, not to all books: so your statement that "the question of "what is an edition?" is really irrelevant" is meaningless in any broader context. Unless you provide specific boundaries and definitions for such statements, you're on really shaky ground.

OT, this is one of the reasons I haven't bought "Wool" and probably never will. I don't want to have to track down different versions, additional chapters written specifically for overseas editions and all the variations on a theme. When I buy a book I want the FINAL product, not a work constantly in flux.

Just a grumble.

Agreed.

I've seen the argument that it doesn't matter if I buy a book that's subsequently changed because with e-books being what they are I can then go and download the newer, updated version so I've not lost out. But once I've read a book I'm very unlikely to want to go and read it again just so I can see how much better it is now the grammar's been improved. I want to buy a final product.
 

Katie Elle

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OT, this is one of the reasons I haven't bought "Wool" and probably never will. I don't want to have to track down different versions, additional chapters written specifically for overseas editions and all the variations on a theme. When I buy a book I want the FINAL product, not a work constantly in flux.

The chapter in question will be added to existing ebooks. So you have to weigh archival purity of separate editions against the benefit of not having to purchase a new product.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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The chapter in question will be added to existing ebooks. So you have to weigh archival purity of separate editions against the benefit of not having to purchase a new product.

(apologies for derail)

But WHY should I have to hunt down new chapters to an already-published work? And, AFAIK, that new chapter was an S&S exclusive for the overseas printing so I doubt he can add it to the US version.

I'm sure Howey can get by without my few pennies but I won't buy ANY author's book that isn't a finished product. Period. I'm not talking about fixing typos, I'm talking about adding new chapters and rewriting the ending because the author changed his/her mind.

That, to me, isn't anything I want to pay for and be worried about. I shouldn't have to keep reloading a book to see if the ending has changed or an Extra!New! Chapter is there because the author realized his story wasn't complete enough without it.

But that's my quibble. Just an old broad who believes in the final product being published, not a constant work-in-progress.

:)
 

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(apologies for derail)
But that's my quibble. Just an old broad who believes in the final product being published, not a constant work-in-progress.

But you never *really* know if the book you purchased is the final product. You might get a notice from Amazon some time later that the book has an update (as has happened with 3 of the books I've purchased).

If I've already read the book, I don't bother to download the update unless I plan to re-read the book, which is extremely rare. If I have not read the book, I probably would download the update.

I have to say that Amazon's wording when you get these update notices certainly isn't confidence inspiring. So far they have always given a reason of "Significant editorial issues were present." Even if I DID update my book, I would not ask Amazon to send THAT notice to my readers.
 

Katie Elle

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I had a kindle in 2009, I have a lot of update notices. The early ebooks were often dismal unedited OCRs. That's really different than something like an additional chapter or a revision. Those happen other than in the wild and wooly world of ebooks though. The difference is with an ebook, you don't have to pay again. Given that you can't sell one used etc., that is a tangible benefit.
 

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The question of "what is an edition?" is really relevant because with ebooks, it's all very Buddhist. There is no future or past, only now.

Professional ebook producers include a version identifier in the metadata; this is even in the Open Ebook Standard, and in the ePub standard.

There's even provision for including metadata for β versions, that is, production and QA versions.

This dates back to the early days on ebook publishing, when ebooks were large produced by software developers working for and with publishers.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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But you never *really* know if the book you purchased is the final product. You might get a notice from Amazon some time later that the book has an update (as has happened with 3 of the books I've purchased).

If I've already read the book, I don't bother to download the update unless I plan to re-read the book, which is extremely rare. If I have not read the book, I probably would download the update.

I have to say that Amazon's wording when you get these update notices certainly isn't confidence inspiring. So far they have always given a reason of "Significant editorial issues were present." Even if I DID update my book, I would not ask Amazon to send THAT notice to my readers.


I have a Nook and I've *never* received any notices. OTOH I don't buy self-published books other than those put out by trade authors.

I buy final, finished books. I don't buy works-in-progress or whatever the current term is. I've never received a notice and I don't expect to - because those self-pub books I've bought are from trade authors like Courtney Milan who understand that readers want the final product NOW, not when the author feels the whimsey train coming by to redo the ending to make the fans happy.

As I said, that's my take. I don't hand in unfinished work to my publishers and claim that we can just keep issuing "new editions" as we go through editing. They put out the final product and that's what sells to the readers.

But what do I know...

:)
 

jnfr

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I've received those notices and gotten updated downloads. I figure most of them are updates to take out typos and stuff, and for books I haven't read yet, I don't care if they are more.

On the other hand, I think of the books that I love and have read over and over and practically know by heart, and if I suddenly picked up that book in whatever form and the words were substantially different, it would upset me no end. I don't want or need a different Alice in Wonderland, or other editions of Anne McCaffrey. I love those books exactly as they are.

For a self-publishing author there is the complication that that when you upload a new edition with an actual new ID (whether ISBN or Amazon ASIN, whatever), in most of the current ebook universe you lose all connection to your earlier edition, including all the reputation and rankings that your book has earned. That's a real problem and I hope we find some way to address that. I think that's what James McD was referring to with his comments about SW owning your ISBN.

Two other things, and then I'll go away because clearly I'm thinking about this way too much.

First I was thinking about this last night, and thinking about what DRMarvello said earlier in the thread about how the Kindle edition, because it was MOBI rather than ePub, would in the old method require a different database ID (ISBN in this case) because it was in fact a different edition.

But when I upload to Smashwords, and accept their ISBN, they publish in many different formats, MOBI as well as ePub as well as PDF, etc. So the ISBN is already being forced into various unnatural contortions to try and cope with digital editions.

And my last point, which I say sincerely, is that Hugh Howey's Wool is now available in paper form from Simon & Schuster, and if you love science fiction at all you should read it in that form if nothing else. It's an excellent book and over time I believe it will be as important as earlier classics in the SF pantheon.
 

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Smash only uses the isbn for distribution to other stores because they require it. They are all in epub format.

That's true. Smashwords associates the ISBN only with the EPUB edition for Premium Distribution.

However, that does make me wonder what the do with the lucky few authors who get distributed to Amazon. They can't (or shouldn't) use the same ISBN they use for the EPUB. So how do they synchronize the feed with Amazon? Do they assign a second ISBN? Do they use the Smashwords book identifier? Do they use the ASIN that Amazon assigns?

The feed is not automated yet, as I understand it, so they could probably do any of the above. The database developer in me is curious about how it works, but not enough to go ask Mark. ;-)
 

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So in other words, if I wanted to use my own ISBNs it is not only about editions (changes in the text since I would want to follow correct standards) it is also about formats.

Lets say all my text is the same. I'd need one ISBN for hard copy, one for paperback, one for mobi file and a different one for ePub file?

Since Amazon had to be exclusive with it's mobi file being just for Kindle, one ISBN for that, but ePub is for Nook, Sony etc readers right? So the same ISBN I use for the ePub format could be uploaded to B&N, google books etc. Am I correct?

Personally I would want my editions to have ISBNs and be tracked. I self-published a book in 2000 (Bread & Butter in my siggy). First to clarify not vanity published (which are usually package deals costing thousands plus buying your own book) but self-published. We paid Morris Publishing to print them at per book price. The more you print the price per book goes down.

It's a non-fiction true crime. Neither my co-author or myself knew much about publishing then. We figured we would only have local sales so who needs an ISBN#? Bad mistake. We sold near a 1000 in the first six months. Some across the ocean. Then it was all word of mouth. Does anyone else know that? Nope. No ISBN to track anything by anybody so we lost momentum although we still sell here and there, but I went on to write other things.

So my friend moves and finds 2 cases. Sigh... I had to jump through hoops to get it on Amazon since it is after 1972 and had no ISBN. I got a waiver and put them on Amazon. It won't come up in a book search though as it is looked at differently. More like selling a toaster on Amazon. A different type of product than the other books.

I have a plagiarism issue going on right now with this book so numbers would have been helpful to prove, and had we an ISBN for bookstores etc to see our sales would have grew, in my opinion. We did register the copyright thank God, as you need that if your going to go after someone. (Which I am.)

I am now formatting it for Kindle and the other readers. Then POD, and save the hard copies we have just for the locals. So I can see a lot of reasons to have an ISBN#. Wouldn't it also be something a publisher would notice if a self-publisher was selling a ton of books be it hard copy or digital? You could prove it in the stats and maybe said publisher might pick it up. I could be guessing on that.

And just to clarify, it is not true about libraries not wanting self-published books. Libraries have the one I'm talking about. Bread & Butter shows up on worldcat. I imagine non-fiction might do better in that area of self-publishing though.
 
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So in other words, if I wanted to use my own ISBNs it is not only about editions (changes in the text since I would want to follow correct standards) it is also about formats.

Lets say all my text is the same. I'd need one ISBN for hard copy, one for paperback, one for mobi file and a different one for ePub file?

Since Amazon had to be exclusive with it's mobi file being just for Kindle, one ISBN for that, but ePub is for Nook, Sony etc readers right? So the same ISBN I use for the ePub format could be uploaded to B&N, google books etc. Am I correct?

You got it. You use one ISBN per edition, and the definition of an "edition" includes the format.

Keep in mind the ultimate purpose of an ISBN: it's to make sure customers get exactly what they ordered. If they order the second edition of your book in EPUB format, you don't want to send them the MobiPocket format. Or the first edition. If we didn't assign different ISBNs to the different formats, we'd never know which format the customer wanted.

The reason you can (and should) use the same ISBN for your EPUB edition at the different vendor portals is because you are acting in the role of distributor. Your book has the same "identity" at the different vendors because it is exactly the same edition. Even if a customer orders your book from two different vendors, they are getting the same book in the same format.

KDP is kind of a strange case. A lot of authors don't bother putting an ISBN on their MobiPocket (Kindle) editions because that edition isn't technically "in distribution;" it is only sold within the Amazon ecosystem, and Amazon assigns its own number (ASIN). That said, putting an ISBN on your MobiPocket edition doesn't hurt anything and might actually be a good idea if you ever plan to sell that edition anywhere else (like on your own web site).

Again, it's all about customers getting what they want. If a friend recommends your book and gives me the EPUB ISBN, I should be able to use that number to order the EPUB format for that same edition of your book from any vendor who carries it.
 

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I would say a lot of people just use one ISBN for their digital edition though (whether it be epub, mobi, whatever).

Seems to make sense since you could upload one file to, say, Smashwords and they'll spit out different formats for different vendors.
 

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I would say a lot of people just use one ISBN for their digital edition though (whether it be epub, mobi, whatever).

Yes, I agree that a lot of people are using ISBNs incorrectly.

Seems to make sense since you could upload one file to, say, Smashwords and they'll spit out different formats for different vendors.

Smashwords does not spit out different formats for different vendors. Premium Distribution distributes an EPUB file only. They sell the other formats directly from their own retail store, and they have their own book ID for that.

The only question mark is the Amazon feed, which is done completely manually at this time. If they send a MobiPocket file to Amazon, I'd be willing to bet they do not associate the EPUB ISBN with it. It's also possible that they send over an EPUB file and Amazon runs Kindlegen against it. Either way, my guess is that they just let Amazon assign an ASIN. [These would be good questions for Mr. Coker.]
 

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Yes, I agree that a lot of people are using ISBNs incorrectly.

Incorrectly in the letter of ISBN procedures. I haven't seen any argument where different ISBNs are needed for different digital formats.

They sell the other formats directly from their own retail store, and they have their own book ID for that.

So they are selling books in different format using either the same ISBN or using no ISBN for formats other than epub. That doesn't speak highly for the need for ISBNs for different digital editions.

As far as I'm concerned digital editions are the same edition with different software manipulation to make them readable on different devices. Smashwords shows this. Publisher uploads one book with one ISBN. Smashwords uses its software to make that book available in different formats.
 

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Just goes to show how unprepared the publishing industry was for this. Obviously they never expected self-publishing to take off the way it did. But Smashwords would only need one file right? All the other readers read ePUB files correct? Except for the oddball mobi file for Kindle. Although it is not necessarily needed, I think I would still prefer it.
 
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Yes, I agree that a lot of people are using ISBNs incorrectly.

Incorrectly in the letter of ISBN procedures. I haven't seen any argument where different ISBNs are needed for different digital formats.

Using them correctly (and if you're going to use them, why would you not?) makes things clearer and easier in all sorts of ways.

This discussion provides a good argument for using separate ISBNs for each format of your book. If you aren't able to see that here then either you're not reading this thread with any level of attention, or you've just dismissed the viewpoints and advice of several of AW's members. Tread carefully, please.

So they are selling books in different format using either the same ISBN or using no ISBN for formats other than epub. That doesn't speak highly for the need for ISBNs for different digital editions.

That's one possible conclusion.

Another is that Smashwords feels it's not necessary to use ISBNs from its own site because it uses other means to track sales.

That's fair enough, I suppose, if all your sales are from Smashwords and you don't need an ISBN for anything else: for example, selling the same edition elsewhere, or as an identifier. Being satisfied with using just the Smashwords identifiers seems indicative of a somewhat narrow focus, particularly in regard to sales and various marketing opportunities; but then I've worked with several complex co-editions in multiple formats, and have seen how helpful--I'd even say essential--ISBNs are. They ensure clarity down the line, which can't be achieved in any other way.

As far as I'm concerned digital editions are the same edition with different software manipulation to make them readable on different devices. Smashwords shows this. Publisher uploads one book with one ISBN. Smashwords uses its software to make that book available in different formats.

Using only Smashword's numbers is fair enough if all you're doing is selling from Smashwords and don't have any broader ambitions; or if you're not interested in the sales data that ISBNs provide. But if you want to do more with your book, you're going to be stuck; or you're going to get into an administrative pickle further down the line.

If you don't want to use ISBNs then that's fine, it really is: but one shouldn't suggest they're not required, or that they don't work properly, just because one doesn't see the benefit of using them.

Just goes to show how unprepared the publishing industry was for this. Obviously they never expected self-publishing to take off the way it did.

Sleuth, I really don't see how you could safely draw those two conclusions from this discussion. I'd be grateful if you could explain them.

But Smashwords would only need one file right? All the other readers read ePUB files correct? Except for the oddball mobi file for Kindle. Although it is not necessarily needed, I think I would still prefer it.

I don't understand. What would you "still prefer"?
 

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This discussion provides a good argument for using separate ISBNs for each format of your book. If you aren't able to see that here then either you're not reading this thread with any level of attention, or you've just dismissed the viewpoints and advice of several of AW's members. Tread carefully, please.

Most of the discussion was about using different ISBNs for different editions. It wasn't about whether you use different ISBNs for different digital formats. My argument was that mobi, epub etc. are the same edition of the book (just altered by software to make it readable on different platforms).

I don't see why I have to tread carefully. Are you not allowed to disagree with others here anymore? What did I say that was out of line?
 

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Most of the discussion was about using different ISBNs for different editions. It wasn't about whether you use different ISBNs for different digital formats. My argument was that mobi, epub etc. are the same edition of the book (just altered by software to make it readable on different platforms).

"Different digital formats" are "different editions", stranger. Each new format of the same book is a different edition, just as paperbacks and hardbacks are different editions. That's kind of the point.

I don't see why I have to tread carefully. Are you not allowed to disagree with others here anymore? What did I say that was out of line?

You read way too much into my comment. Of course you're allowed to disagree with others here, and I didn't suggest otherwise.

My point was that you seemed to be either ignoring or dismissing others' comments here, and by doing so and commenting in the way you did, you risked coming across as disrespectful to your fellow writers. It wasn't a telling-off, more of a heads-up.
 
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