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Algonkian Writer Conferences / WebDelSol

LindaJeanne

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If that's the case then I'm baffled at why you're taking issue with anything in this thread, since it appears to be completely unrelated to anything you personally dealt with. :Shrug:
That aside, I was baffled why she felt the need to attack francisbruno, rather than simply share her own positive experience.

I was even more baffled by the dramatic flounce in response to Uncle Jim's completely innocuous post.

:Shrug:
 

francisbruno

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It's obvious that I "misled and lied" to her (him) causing all sorts of issues. Uncle Jim put her (him) over the edge.

I have my suspicions that BabsWriter is not all she says she is. It's kind of strange that the account was created about a year ago and not used until recently. She sprang up, launched into the thread with "insider info", ranted a bit and disappeared.

All my suspicions, but it's not unlike previous Algonkian MO's IMHO. Also not completely unlike someone I met…
 

James D. Macdonald

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For the record, I was responding to Wilde At Heart's post, trying to show that Babswriters' posts were actually on-topic.


Congratulations and thanks for sharing your positive experience. However, this thread isn't about 'pitch groups' per se, but about one particular organisation hosting one particular set of conferences/pitch sessions - Algonkian.
 

KarmaChameleon

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[FONT=&quot]So, I asked about the Algonkian New York Pitch conference late last year and I’d like to share my experience with all of you now. Let me start out by saying that [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] I am a real person, with a real job outside of my passion for writing, so this is not some paid advertisement. Nor did I drink any koolaid or pledge myself to the immortal Dormamu =0).[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I’m also a hardcore cynic. Being raised by Chinese parents and then becoming a criminal defense attorney will do that to you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I greatly enjoyed the conference, but I can understand why some peoples’ mileage might vary, certainly it did in my group. Because the course is not a small amount of money, here are some suggestions to get the most bang out of your buck:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do not go unless you have a semi-polished novel. I say semi-polished because more likely than not, you’ll have to do some large rewrites. Not even because the program coordinators are telling you to, because it’s what the editors want to see. The one person in our group who had already been to a writer’s conference still has to do minor rewrites.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do not go unless you are willing to take a fair amount of criticism and advice. The program is not for those with thin skin. The program coordinators are not mean, they’re just going to be completely honest with you. That’s not saying that you need to accept all their advice (and believe me, I fought them on my setting) but be prepared to at least listen to what they’re saying without argument.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do not go unless you enjoy working with a group of people, because you have the option to do a lot of that and it helps, believe me. The people who were off in the corner almost had mental breakdowns and it makes sense! The conference was tremendously fun, but it is stressful pitching to editors (even though every editor I met was very nice). You will be using your brain a lot in a short period of time.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now that that’s out of the way, let me say that everyone gets some wonderful opportunities. You’ll get to meet four editors and speak to each of them about 10 minutes long. This is a godsend if you’ve actually been to any cattle call pitch, audition, or other interview. You’ll hopefully meet a fantastic group of people that you can bounce your ideas off of. Finally, it will hopefully do for you what it did for me. Allow you to breathe new life into your novel. My novel was okay, but it had reached a point. After the conference, I find myself writing with actual passion again. I will also say that although it's a pitch conference you will end up work-shopping your novel a decent amount. You really get to brainstorm and change your novel into something wonderful and then convey it through the pitch.
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[FONT=&quot]This is just a general overview, nor do I even advocate that the conference is for everyone. But I can say two things with certainty:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The conference is NOT a scam.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The conference WAS for me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] I won’t make this post any longer and I certainly won’t argue with anyone over my opinion (because it’s just my opinion). But if you want to know more, you can pm me and I’ll give you my honest opinion.[/FONT]
 
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francisbruno

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Hi Karma,
I'm glad you had a good time at the conference.
Couple of things:
1) I don't think anyone called the conference a scam. Worth it? Questionable. It was worth it to you so great!
2) What I and some others think is that you can get the same kind of feedback from people on this site and others for the cost of your internet connection and time.
2a) This one bothered me for a while, but some of the feedback is just plain wrong or the opinion of a single person or perhaps a few. When I went, one lady was writing a historical fiction novel about vikings. She was told that vikings would never sell and she should change it. Considering now there is a series about vikings, I'm not so sure he was correct.

Anyways, not trying to argue, just wanted to correct one thing and clarify another.
Cheers
 

BabsWriter

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2) What I and some others think is that you can get the same kind of feedback from people on this site and others for the cost of your internet connection and time.

Francis. You are once again contradicting yourself in a big way. You spent a post or three telling everyone how numerous workshops and conferences you've attended were helpful to you--at least six or seven of them? And now you're claiming here that an Internet chat forum will give you the same thing as a major writer conference, but where is your contract, Francis? In other words, it appears that no Internet forum gave you the advice you needed, and you've been hanging out at them for years. You had to attend multiple events to get more mentorship and advice. You've talked about that repeatedly and you've attended these events since becoming a member of this forum.

Apparently, you were not able to get the guidance you needed for the cost of your Internet connection.
 

francisbruno

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Francis. You are once again contradicting yourself in a big way. You spent a post or three telling everyone how numerous workshops and conferences you've attended were helpful to you--at least six or seven of them? And now you're claiming here that an Internet chat forum will give you the same thing as a major writer conference, but where is your contract, Francis? In other words, it appears that no Internet forum gave you the advice you needed, and you've been hanging out at them for years. You had to attend multiple events to get more mentorship and advice. You've talked about that repeatedly and you've attended these events since becoming a member of this forum.

Apparently, you were not able to get the guidance you needed for the cost of your Internet connection.

You are confusing conferences given by successful writers:
Orson Scott Card
James MacDonald
Elizabeth Bear
Steven Brust
Deborah Doyle
Sherwood Smith
David Farland

On the business side:
Kevin J Anderson
Brandon Sanderson
Eric Flint

All of which I have met personally and have gotten instruction on writing and business from, with a conference run by who? What qualifications do they have? When I went, it was one persons opinion or the highway. Someone who was belligerent to the attendees if they didn't accept his view. The other people were wanna-be writers like me.

If you believe that Viable Paradise, Uncle Orson's Bootcamp, David Farland's courses or Supserstars of writing are in the same league as Algonkian/ WebDelSol, then we don't have much to talk about.
 

HapiSofi

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Well said, Francis Bruno.
 

BabsWriter

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You are confusing conferences given by successful writers:
Orson Scott Card
James MacDonald
Elizabeth Bear
Steven Brust
Deborah Doyle ...

And you are confusing your biased personal experience with reality as experienced by other writers like myself. Writer after writer comes here and confirms their experience, and you immediately poof into being to provide an act of subtle contradiction, and you never miss an opportunity. It's as if you know you'll get a good audience and you want to perform, or you just have a grudge to work out, or whatever. I really don't buy the crusader angle at all. Maybe, maybe not. Well, Francis, I'm not a science fiction writer either, so attending a workshop with any of the above would be rather pointless for me.

When I went, it was one persons opinion or the highway. Someone who was belligerent to the attendees if they didn't accept his view.

There you go again, contradicting yourself. The Francis Bruno of 2014 is not the same one that provided a very different viewpoint of the event(s) in question a few years ago. Polar opposite. His viewpoint was much more in line with my own; and I did see the "sock puppet" explanation, Francis. It smacks of nonsense.

As far as "Web del Sol" goes, I had no idea what it was until you just brought it up. I googled and found a website that promotes literary journals. Okay, great ... Thanks for that. I recognized a friend published in 5 Trope, and I noticed in one called Double Room that they has published fresh Walt Whitman. What a surprise that was!
 

BabsWriter

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... with a conference run by who? What qualifications do they have?

Since you asked, I'll tell you then. The "qualifications" of the following people were far more valuable to me than Deborah Doyle or Orson Scott Card, but perhaps that is because I am not part of that genre? And I wished to talk to editorial professionals, not just writers. I find that writers/authors have a stove-piped vision of publishing, whereas good agents and senior acquisition editors have a more useful, broader view.

As follows, and I want to emphasize that I had as much time as I needed with all of these people to discuss aspects of my novel from top to bottom. Susan Breen was selfless with her time and fantastic. Everyone loved her. I learned so much from her about my novel and my own writing. What I learned turned me around. The workshop aspect of the pitch conference was invaluable to me, then came the talks with the editors about my work.

My workshop leader, Susan Breen:

Susan Breen is the author of the novel THE FICTION CLASS, discovered at the New York Pitch and published by Plume, an imprint of Penguin Group. Her novel was also published by Headline Review (in the UK), Wheeler Publishing (large print) and is a selection of Reading Group Choices. Susan has been a finalist for the Peter Taylor Prize for the Novel and the James Jones First Novel Fellowship Competition. Her stories have been published by a number of literary magazines, among them North Dakota Quarterly, The Chattahoochee Review and American Literary Review. Susan teaches beginning and advanced fiction classes at Gotham Writers' Workshop; she is also a contributor to The Writer and Writer's Digest.

My first editor, Jackie Cantor who I lunched with afterwards:

Jackie Cantor is an Executive Editor at The Berkley Publishing Group, a division of Penguin. Prior to joining Berkley in August 2005, she was a Vice President and Executive Editor at Bantam Dell, where her list included a wide variety of fiction and nonfiction titles in all formats. She is proud to have discovered the New York Times bestselling authors Diana Gabaldon and Eloisa James. Other major authors whose work she has acquired include John Grisham, John Lescroart, and Hope Edelman (MOTHERLESS DAUGHTERS). At Berkley, her list includes the nationally bestselling authors Kate Furnivall (THE RUSSIAN CONCUBINE, THE WHITE PEARL), Kate Quinn (MISTRESS OF ROME, EMPRESS OF THE SEVEN HILLS), Laura Brodie (THE WIDOW'S SEASON, ALL THE TRUTH), Lucy Dillon (LOST DOGS AND LONELY HEARTS, WALKING BACK TO HAPPINESS) and Lucy Ferriss (THE LOST DAUGHTER).

Caitlin Alexander, who was available for ongoing consultation and who I hung with at happy hour:

Caitlin Alexander is freelance editor in New York. As a senior editor at Random House Publishing Group she acquired and edited a variety of projects including New York Times bestsellers Michelle Richmond (THE YEAR OF FOG), David Gibbins (THE LOST TOMB), Andy McDermott (THE HUNT FOR ATLANTIS), and Gwen Cooper (HOMER'S ODYSSEY); Angela Davis-Gardner (PLUM WINE), and International Thriller Writers Award winner Tom Piccirilli (SHADOW SEASON).

And my second editor, Lyssa Keusch, who was wonderful:

Executive Editor Lyssa Keusch acquires primarily commercial fiction for the William Morrow/Avon imprint of HarperCollins Publishers. Her main focus is on rich, textured, thought-provoking commercial women's fiction, contemporary or historical fiction, and high concept, smart thrillers and suspense. She has launched the careers of New York Times bestselling authors James Rollins and Julia Quinn, with whom she is thrilled to continue to work. Among her other authors are New York Times bestsellers J. A. Jance, Jefferson Bass, Samantha James, and Elizabeth Boyle, award-winners Jamie Freveletti, Sean Chercover, Robin Burcell, and Mary Daheim, and international bestsellers Kathryn Fox and Glenn Cooper. While her list is generally comprised of commercial fiction, she enjoys editing the occasional narrative nonfiction project as well, keeping an eye out for books in which the reader learns something fascinating, on topics ranging from popular science and nature to history to cultural explorations to memoir.

My third editor, Dana Isaacson, one of the most helpful and knowledgeable professionals I've ever spoken to:

Dana Isaacson, Senior Editor at the Random House Publishing Group, has worked in the book publishing industry for nearly twenty years in various capacities: as abridger, literary agent, writer, online editor and acquisitions and content editor. Prior to Random House, he edited at Pocket Books, St. Martin's Press, and ReganBooks. At Random House, he has worked on a wide variety of titles -- from bestselling commercial fiction (Tess Gerritsen's THE MEPHISTO CLUB, Dianne Emley's THE FIRST CUT) to literary biographies (TOO BRIEF A TREAT: THE COLLECTED LETTERS OF TRUMAN CAPOTE, Jonathan Reynolds' WRESTLING WITH GRAVY) to historical narratives (Gerry Adams' A FARTHER SHORE, Michael Kauffman's AMERICAN BRUTUS).

My fourth editor, Abby Zidle, a real gem:

Abby Zidle is a senior editor at Gallery and Pocket Books acquiring commercial fiction and nonfiction, including romance, suspense, general fiction, women's fiction, memoir, and popular culture titles. Her authors at Pocket include everything from New York Times bestsellers to debut novelists. Prior to working at Pocket, she was an editor for Harlequin's HQN line. She began her career in publishing at Bantam Dell, after abandoning the glamorous life of a Ph.D. student (the only job that pays worse than editorial assistant).

And this agent, Katharine Sands, read my first couple of pages and we hung out later at the New Yorker:

A literary agent with the Sarah Jane Freymann Literary Agency, Katharine has worked with a varied list of authors who publish a diverse array of books. She is the agent provocateur of Making the Perfect Pitch: How to Catch a Literary Agent's Eye--a collection of pitching wisdom from leading literary agents.
 

francisbruno

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Writer after writer comes here and confirms their experience, and you immediately poof into being to provide an act of subtle contradiction, and you never miss an opportunity. It's as if you know you'll get a good audience and you want to perform, or you just have a grudge to work out, or whatever. I really don't buy the crusader angle at all. Maybe, maybe not. Well, Francis, I'm not a science fiction writer either, so attending a workshop with any of the above would be rather pointless for me.

Hi Babs,
It seems like you poofed and posted exclusively to this thread to promote the conference and attack me, so pot meet kettle.
As to having a biased responses, I could say the same of yours.
It also seems that you seem to hold a grudge against me, aside from casting warnings here and there, I am only responding to allegations from you.

Also, I really like the way you twist my comments about the conference into personal attacks against me. The purpose of the forum is bewares, recommendations and background checks. The title of this thread has webdelsol in it, so I'm not sure why you are confused that I used it.

There you go again, contradicting yourself. The Francis Bruno of 2014 is not the same one that provided a very different viewpoint of the event(s) in question a few years ago. Polar opposite. His viewpoint was much more in line with my own; and I did see the "sock puppet" explanation, Francis. It smacks of nonsense.

You, as have I in the past, gave recommendations to the conference.
I have changed my mind having learned a lot about the writing process and the business of writing, you still like the conference, great. You have every right to tell everyone it helped you and you had fun. I must say that the manner in which you do it doesn't do the conference or yourself any favors.

As to being a sock puppet, I have the emails to prove it.

You have made your point time and again that the conference was worth it to you.
I'm frankly baffled why you think I am trying to dissuade you of that. I had a great time when I went. In the intervening years, I have found it provided little use that I couldn't have gotten on a forum here or there. I also didn't understand the harm that the actions of some of the instructors had on the students, as well meaning as they might be. This is why I warn people away. If someone wants to go, they should know what they are potentially getting into.

That is not to say people aren't driven to tears in other conferences I've been to. At Viable Paradise, Uncle Orson's and David Farland's courses, you will hear everything wrong with a story and sometimes it hurts, but in the end they are there to make YOUR store better. At the time when I went to the P&S, if YOUR story didn't match the expectations of the instructor, you got little help except to turn it into THEIR idea of a story, and little help at that.

(Replying to your second post which looks cut and pasted from the net. You might want to cite your sources for copyright reasons)

It seems the format of the conference has changed a bit since I went. There was no opportunity to interact with anyone other than the instructor when I went. No happy hour other than students gathering. We were forbidden from interacting with the editors. So I'd say that's a plus.

Am I doing this for an audience, no. I simply want people informed.
But I will respond to personal attacks against myself.

Happy writing.
 

AW Admin

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I'm going to lock this thread until the Bewares, Recs and Background check mods are around.

That said, I have a couple of observations:

1. Quit making it personal. Not only because what works might work for one won't work for another, but because it's discourteous in the extreme, and devolves into he-said-she-said, which is childish and pointless.

2. Babswriter, you sound exceedingly familiar.