Subverting Tropes: A Hard Sell

AbbyBabble · Aug 5, 2014

If you're a debut novelist, and your book contains tropes in the first chapter, be prepared for a ton of rejections.

I wrote a blog post about this. If you do something clever with the trope in your novel, the agent or acquisitions editor will probably never read that far. They'll assume the worst and stop reading.

Osulagh · Aug 5, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
If you're a debut novelist, and your book contains tropes in the first chapter, be prepared for a ton of rejections.

How so?

Oh, and there's a difference between subverting tropes and subverting exceptions. Especially when you look at it in the story's length. I remember in one of Brandon Sanderson's lectures (can't remember which episode) that he talks about a fellow writer who, for the majority of his first book, had a pretty stale setup and towards the end turned it all on its head (I think by revealing something. It's been a while since I've watched that episode). While it had great affect, it didn't come soon enough to subvert the reader's exceptions, making the book flop before agents/editors could get to that point.

suki · Aug 5, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
If you're a debut novelist, and your book contains tropes in the first chapter, be prepared for a ton of rejections.

I wrote a blog post about this. If you do something clever with the trope in your novel, the agent or acquisitions editor will probably never read that far. They'll assume the worst and stop reading.

Rejection is difficult. It stinks. When someone can't see what you are trying to do, it can be downright frustrating.

But...it's a mistake to think readers will hang in there for a good chunk of a book trusting you intend something cool and fresh later, if the front end is tropes galore, unless you have some other hook. Something cool and fresh and interesting. A kickass voice. A twist from the get go, that hints at more twists to come. Something beyond the tropes. It's not just industry pros. Many casual readers will flip through a few pages and put it back, too, unless there is something compelling in the first pages.

If your first chapter isn't effective -- for whatever reason -- then you need to rethink your first chapter. Something has to hook your reader, whether pro or otherwise, before they will stick around for the stuff you have planned for later in the book.

And if the age of your character is outside the usual parameters for YA, that is a second strike, making it that much less likely that an agent or editor is going to think it's a good fit for YA.

It's the hard truth that if you are unpublished, few are going to simply trust that you have something cool in the works if the opening chapters don't show something cool and fresh. You have to hook them up front. Once you are a well known author, known for your cool tricks and subverting tropes, they might stick with you despite trope-heavy early chapters. But, even then, it's not a certain thing.

~suki

Fuchsia Groan · Aug 5, 2014

I've done pretty well with a book that has a trope-heavy setup. (I've even heard people refer to this particular trope of thrillers as one that should never be used again, ever.) Voice, I think, can override a tired trope and give the reader hints of fresh twists to come. Anyway, that's what I tried to focus on: making the voice as real and raw as possible, so people would forget the trope was so familiar.

LJD · Aug 5, 2014

Tropes are not necessarily a bad thing. Readers might like certain tropes and look for books that contain them. They are a big part of category romance. Entangled's category romance lines, for example? They want you to have multiple tropes in each book. On romance blogs, I have seen many posts asking about people's favourite tropes, bullet-proof tropes, etc. I am less familiar with other genres, but IMO, a "tropes will lead to rejection" viewpoint is a little simplistic. Also, I don't see tropes as being the same as cliches, and maybe you are more talking about the latter?

AbbyBabble · Aug 5, 2014

Beta readers really like my novel. For *years,* I was mystified as to why I got so many great reader reactions, only to have the novel get auto-rejected by every agent and publisher I sent it to.

I've finally figured it out. The first chapter has red flags that turn off industry professionals. The protagonist's age is Red Flag #1, and the trope assumption is Red Flag #2. Those two are a deadly combination.

Normal readers don't mind tropes so much, and if the writing is solid, they trust the author enough to keep reading.

I've made a breakthrough, figuring this out. I'm sure it seems obvious to some of you, but it wasn't at all obvious to me.

amergina · Aug 5, 2014

Generally, what I see attracting agents and editors are books with strong voices, writing, and characters. Tropes aren't a dealbreaker.

The thing is, you see plenty of writers complaining that agents/editors only want the same old same old thing and they never take a chance on anything new or different..while at the same time, writers complain that because they're writing something that is the same old same old (or looks like its the same old) agents and editors won't take a chance on them because they only want new and different things.

Editors and agents want books that levitate off the slush pile, that make them miss their subway stop, that keep them reading. It's all in the execution--that is, the writing.

Wilde_at_heart · Aug 5, 2014

Are you basing this on specific feedback from agents, or how are you coming to this conclusion?

As someone who spends a lot of time on #tenqueries, etc., I don't think I've seen a single agent reject because of 'tropes'. The most common rejections were not following submission guidelines, the writing was lacking, or the concept just didn't grab them. Less often, there were other factors some of which the writer can control, some of which they can't.

I don't know if you've seen Mutive's thread in QLH about numbers and Query letters, but it's worth reading through. Ultimately, if the writing is solid and the query is solid, it's a numbers game.

Osulagh · Aug 5, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
Beta readers really like my novel. For *years,* I was mystified as to why I got so many great reader reactions, only to have the novel get auto-rejected by every agent and publisher I sent it to.

I've finally figured it out. The first chapter has red flags that turn off industry professionals. The protagonist's age is Red Flag #1, and the trope assumption is Red Flag #2. Those two are a deadly combination.

Normal readers don't mind tropes so much, and if the writing is solid, they trust the author enough to keep reading.

I've made a breakthrough, figuring this out. I'm sure it seems obvious to some of you, but it wasn't at all obvious to me.

The problem I'm having is that you're making up a lot of absolute statements based off of assumptions.

I've heard "beta readers loved it, agents hate it" a hundred times, and that can be from many reasons; doesn't mean tropes are the problem. Agents and editors are readers as well, and not matter what the book contains they'll represent it.
There's millions of reasons why you might have gotten rejected--especially auto-rejected. Perhaps your query wasn't up to snuff. Perhaps your opening pages weren't good enough. Perhaps your ideas weren't catching their eye. Perhaps [insert random reason here].

Tropes are not a problem when they are not badly done. In fact, tropes are one of the defining characteristics of genres. Cut out tropes from a genre, good chance you're not writing that genre. For example, if you cut out or subvert the "Happy ever after" trope, good chance you'll never sell that romance novel because the market just doesn't allow for it.

But then I also think you don't fully understand what a trope is.
A trope, as stated in the best way I can find it by TV Tropes is:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Trope

Merriam-Webster gives a definition of "trope" as a "figure of speech." In storytelling, a trope is just that — a conceptual figure of speech, a storytelling shorthand for a concept that the audience will recognize and understand instantly.

Above all, a trope is a convention. It can be a plot trick, a setup, a narrative structure, a character type, a linguistic idiom... you know it when you see it. Tropes are not inherently disruptive to a story; however, when the trope itself becomes intrusive, distracting the viewer rather than serving as shorthand, it has become a cliché.

While it's great that you figured something out that you personally believe in, telling it to others with absolute statements as if to be a solution to a very general problem is not ideal. It would be great to hear of personal experience with the problem and solution based off of an end result, what "experts" such as agents and editors think of the situation, or even ask of a discussion of the subject matter. But just declaring it outright might mislead people.

cornflake · Aug 5, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
If you're a debut novelist, and your book contains tropes in the first chapter, be prepared for a ton of rejections.

I wrote a blog post about this. If you do something clever with the trope in your novel, the agent or acquisitions editor will probably never read that far. They'll assume the worst and stop reading.

I read your blog post, and I don't know what you're basing your conclusions off of, besides assumption.

A query would show that the plot isn't what one might expect, so I don't know why you'd think agents would be rejecting your work because it's got tropes in the first chapter.

I also don't really get your conclusions about how readers will react to what you do, but regardless. The idea that agents don't want tropes is not really supportable, imo.

Have you put your query in QLH?

Jamesaritchie · Aug 6, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
If you're a debut novelist, and your book contains tropes in the first chapter, be prepared for a ton of rejections.

I wrote a blog post about this. If you do something clever with the trope in your novel, the agent or acquisitions editor will probably never read that far. They'll assume the worst and stop reading.

I don't believe that for a second. If it were true, only one of my recent stories would have sold, and none of the novels my friends have written would have sold.

From your blog post, the problem isn't having tropes up front, it's having overused cliches up front. There's a huge difference between cliches and tropes.

AbbyBabble · Aug 6, 2014

I kept getting the same specific comment from industry readers on the first three chapters: "Are you aware that your main character is like Artemis Fowl/Ender Wiggin/Professor X?" I thought, Of course I'm aware of it, I did it deliberately. Why do they see it as a problem? Do they hate telepathic geniuses in wheelchairs or something?

The lightbulb has finally gone on. Industry readers are pointing it out because they expect the trope to get played straight. 'Normal' beta readers don't expect the worst, so they give the author a little more trust and keep reading.

It's possible that the tropes I chose are just obscure enough to fall through the cracks. If I'd written a vampire protagonist who only feeds on animals, industry readers might grin and expect subversion, since Edward from Twilight is fresh on people's minds. That one is ripe for it. One might argue that Edward is a new take on Louis from Interview With A Vampire. Vampires are a big enough trope that everyone expects the author to do something new and different with them. Maybe child geniuses haven't reached that breaking point yet. Hmm.

In fact, I can't think of any examples where the child genius trope, or the telepath in a wheelchair trope, get properly subverted. Can you?

I'm going to think about how to signal the subversion in chapter 1, and/or the query letter. This sounds like an excellent solution. I'm just not sure I can pull it off.

cornflake · Aug 6, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
I kept getting the same specific comment from industry readers on the first three chapters: "Are you aware that your main character is like Artemis Fowl/Ender Wiggin/Professor X?" I thought, Of course I'm aware of it, I did it deliberately. Why do they see it as a problem? Do they hate telepathic geniuses in wheelchairs or something?

The lightbulb has finally gone on. Industry readers are pointing it out because they expect the trope to get played straight. 'Normal' beta readers don't expect the worst, so they give the author a little more trust and keep reading.

It's possible that the tropes I chose are just obscure enough to fall through the cracks. If I'd written a vampire protagonist who only feeds on animals, industry readers might grin and expect subversion, since Edward from Twilight is fresh on people's minds. That one is ripe for it. One might argue that Edward is a new take on Louis from Interview With A Vampire. Vampires are a big enough trope that everyone expects the author to do something new and different with them. Maybe child geniuses haven't reached that breaking point yet. Hmm.

In fact, I can't think of any examples where the child genius trope, or the telepath in a wheelchair trope, get properly subverted. Can you?

I'm going to think about how to signal the subversion in chapter 1, and/or the query letter. This sounds like an excellent solution. I'm just not sure I can pull it off.

Ask the squirrels in QLH for help.

What do you mean by 'industry readers'?

Osulagh · Aug 7, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
I kept getting the same specific comment from industry readers on the first three chapters: "Are you aware that your main character is like Artemis Fowl/Ender Wiggin/Professor X?" I thought, Of course I'm aware of it, I did it deliberately. Why do they see it as a problem? Do they hate telepathic geniuses in wheelchairs or something?

The lightbulb has finally gone on. Industry readers are pointing it out because they expect the trope to get played straight. 'Normal' beta readers don't expect the worst, so they give the author a little more trust and keep reading.

It's possible that the tropes I chose are just obscure enough to fall through the cracks. If I'd written a vampire protagonist who only feeds on animals, industry readers might grin and expect subversion, since Edward from Twilight is fresh on people's minds. That one is ripe for it. One might argue that Edward is a new take on Louis from Interview With A Vampire. Vampires are a big enough trope that everyone expects the author to do something new and different with them. Maybe child geniuses haven't reached that breaking point yet. Hmm.

In fact, I can't think of any examples where the child genius trope, or the telepath in a wheelchair trope, get properly subverted. Can you?

I'm going to think about how to signal the subversion in chapter 1, and/or the query letter. This sounds like an excellent solution. I'm just not sure I can pull it off.

I think you're over-thinking the situation. If those readers said that, they're probably pointing it out because the market you're writing to already has similar headlining acts. Writing a book with vampires is rather general so you can do a lot of changes; writing a book about a handicapped child genius with powers is a focused idea--it's hard to do something different with it. Subverting, thus, becomes difficult as the reader already has their choice of the common trope.
Also, those readers might have just pointed those things out because they're just wishing to tell you. I've had readers do this to me a lot, and while it doesn't always feel good being compared to something, it doesn't mean there's a problem and doesn't mean changing that problem later on in the story is the solution.

By the looks of it now, it seems like you're really hard-pressed to the idea of subverting. Which, can be fine. But honestly, why not have something different at the start so the reader doesn't start to think whatever their writing is old and used? Something fresh and new that they haven't experienced before. Subverting some tropes and expectations can be great later on, but when your book's defining characteristic has been used over and over again, the subversion may come far too late to turn the reader's mind.

bertrigby · Aug 7, 2014

Abby, sounds like you need to get some beta readers who are more familiar with your genre or a bit harsher. If they are always telling you everything's fine, it's going to be hard for you to move forwards with the book. Maybe find some new readers who are more in tune with what the market requires?

veinglory · Aug 7, 2014

I think that subverting trope is one of the most commercial things you can do, because it is all the emotional satisfaction of the trope with the cognitive satisfaction of bring a new twist to it. In spec fic this seems to be what most big 5 books are doing.

DoNoKharms · Aug 7, 2014

bertrigby said:
Abby, sounds like you need to get some beta readers who are more familiar with your genre or a bit harsher. If they are always telling you everything's fine, it's going to be hard for you to move forwards with the book. Maybe find some new readers who are more in tune with what the market requires?

This is a really good point that I think a lot of aspiring writers miss. If all your beta readers are telling you your book is great, you need new beta readers. Beta readers should be telling you everything that's wrong with your book, to try to identify all the problems BEFORE you query it out or hand it to your agent. My betas are the toughest writers I know, and every draft I send them comes back needing a lot of revision, but it's great because it fire-proofs my books before I give them to the professionals

Mac H. · Aug 8, 2014

As far as I understand the logic :

1. Beta readers loved it. Agents hated it. It's a common problem.
2. You wondered why - so reviewed it and made a change.
3. Now, after the change, Agents love it
4. Therefore that change is likely the reason.

It makes sense.

But is that the case? If so you might want to clarify that agents do love it now .. otherwise it might appear that you've just found a random thing to change in the hope that this will solve the problem for you.

Mac

veinglory · Aug 8, 2014

Except that 3 and 4 have not happened and so are based on assumptions?

amergina · Aug 8, 2014

I'm not sure 1 has happened, since the query letter is still in progress.

mayqueen · Aug 8, 2014

I want to strongly echo bertrigby and DoNoKharms and everyone else who suggested getting harsher beta-readers.

DoNoKharms said:
Beta readers should be telling you everything that's wrong with your book, to try to identify all the problems BEFORE you query it out or hand it to your agent.

This. So much. Sure, I like it when my CP and my betas love my work. But that's not what I send it to them for. I send it to them so that they can tear it apart and help me make it better.

AbbyBabble said:
For *years,* I was mystified as to why I got so many great reader reactions, only to have the novel get auto-rejected by every agent and publisher I sent it to.

This raises a couple of questions for me. How long have you been working on this particular MS? Have you already queried agents with it? How many? I know you're working on a query letter in QLH right now. Are you re-querying agents? Basically, I just want a brief snapshot of the history of this particular MS.

And then I want to offer another piece of advice: work on something new. If you're querying a MS that's a hard sell and you know it's a hard sell, you should have something else in the pipeline. Hell, you should always have something else (that *isn't* a sequel) in the pipeline. It's how you grow and improve as a writer. And maybe this particular MS won't land you an agent and a publishing deal, but the next one might.

heza · Aug 8, 2014

I'm not trying to be snarky--I just want to better understand the situation so I can give advice.

You say that it's auto-rejected by everyone you've sent it to. But then you say you're getting the same comment from industry readers on the first chapters.

So what's going on here? Are you getting auto-rejected (which I think we're all assuming means you're getting the standard rejection letter) or are you getting personalized feedback?... these two things have different connotations.

Wilde_at_heart · Aug 8, 2014

AbbyBabble said:
I kept getting the same specific comment from industry readers on the first three chapters: "Are you aware that your main character is like Artemis Fowl/Ender Wiggin/Professor X?" I thought, Of course I'm aware of it, I did it deliberately. Why do they see it as a problem?

For all we know, it could be that putting someone in a wheelchair or making them a telepath might not be enough of an 'inversion' of the child-genius trope in their opinions. Either that or the 'inversion' doesn't come early enough. I don't know; just speculating on what's possible out of the myriad ways to take this.

amergina · Aug 8, 2014

mayqueen said:
And then I want to offer another piece of advice: work on something new. If you're querying a MS that's a hard sell and you know it's a hard sell, you should have something else in the pipeline. Hell, you should always have something else (that *isn't* a sequel) in the pipeline. It's how you grow and improve as a writer. And maybe this particular MS won't land you an agent and a publishing deal, but the next one might.

So agree with this.

Apropos to this are these two connected tweets today from Amy Boggs of DMLA (she was tweeting responses to queries):

https://twitter.com/notjustanyboggs/status/497800373303009280

Q12: YA fantasy. Interesting world, interesting character, there’s certainly promise here but it’s not there yet. Pass.

https://twitter.com/notjustanyboggs/status/497800415740981249

No worries; I’ll give the author a note. It sounds like they’ve been focused on this MS a while; I’d see their next.

(Disclosure: I should probably mention I'm repped by DMLA, but not by Amy.)

AbbyBabble · Aug 8, 2014

Lots of unhelpful comments here. This is how it is:

1. Beta readers loved it, plus its sequels. Agents and publishers never read past chapter 1.
2. I wondered why, so I got tons of feedback on the first chapter, and rewrote it.
3. Repeat #1 about 100x. Not an exaggeration.
4. Repeat #2 about 150x. Not an exaggeration.
5. Everyone who read the novel expressed disbelief that I couldn't get an agent or editor to read it.
6. In recent months, I've gotten in-depth feedback on the latest version of chapter 1 from Big Five published author friends and Big Five former editors (aka industry professionals).
7. The lightbulb went on. I finally understand why 100% of industry professionals were commenting on the character's trope characteristics as a problem: It's because they expect the tropes to get played straight. They see a child genius, and expect this to be just another child-genius-saves-everyone story. It's not at all what they're expecting, but they write it off before the story takes its turn.

I'm sure some of you are thinking, "Agents are perfect gatekeepers; she's probably just an amateur writer." I've been doing this for twelve years, I have pro sales, and I don't know how you can be 100% certain that my fiction is amateur without actually having read it.

If you're making that assumption about me, it's understandable. But it's not helpful to my situation.

My beta readers include Big Five authors and slush readers for pro SFF magazines. I started out as an amateur, like anyone else, but I'm happy with my current beta reader group. They're sharp. And critical. And extremely helpful.

The comments about the trope problem in the first chapters were there all along; I just wasn't getting it as a major reason for rejection, until now. And since my beta readers offer feedback on the whole manuscript, plus sequels, I don't think they saw a solid reason for auto-rejection. They were as mystified as I was. They just kept saying, "That's weird. You still haven't gotten an agent to read it yet?"

********** If anyone else has this problem ************

It's *great* to be aware of the problem. That's step one. Now I need to try and signal the trope subversion in chapter 1, and/or in the query letter. I've gotten some excellent advice about how to go about this from other writers. Suggestions include:

- A first scene that subverts another trope, showing that this is not a typical trope story. George R.R. Martin did this in the prologue scene of "A Game of Thrones." [Spoilers] Readers expect the hapless guy to get killed by white walkers (zombies), but he makes it out alive ... only to get beheaded by the guy he reported it to. That sets up the tone of a trope-subverting story. Then readers are more willing to buy the child protagonist in chapter 1, expecting it to not turn into the typical boy-in-a-fantasy-novel-grows-into-The-Chosen-One.

- Have a character literally comment on the trope, to show that the author is aware of it. "Good thing you're not a space cadet, or people might mistake you for Ender Wiggin!"

- Embed the trope subversion in the query pitch.

I'm having trouble with these, due to reasons specific to my particular novel. But I think they're all great suggestions, and will probably work well for other writers with this problem.

Subverting Tropes: A Hard Sell

abbybabble.blogspot.com

Independent fluffy puppy.

Opinionated

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid

abbybabble.blogspot.com

Pittsburgh Strong

&#965;&#960;&#949;&#943;&#954;&#969;phobe

Independent fluffy puppy.

practical experience, FTW

abbybabble.blogspot.com

practical experience, FTW

Independent fluffy puppy.

Dysfunctional dystopian

volitare nequeo

Board Visitor

volitare nequeo

Pittsburgh Strong

practical experience, FTW

&#965;&#960;&#949;&#943;&#954;&#969;phobe

Pittsburgh Strong

abbybabble.blogspot.com

υπείκωphobe

υπείκωphobe