Victoria Foyt's novel coming under fire...

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Rachel Udin

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The tie into the fall of Weird Tales makes me sad. I wish Ann Vandermeer success on her next project. She seems like an editor to aspire to work for.

I'm anti-witch hunt, though I can understand why the readership would still be upset.

At least there is a new place on my list to submit to. I look forward to finding good matches for Shimmer Magazine.
 

sulong

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After reading this thread, I want to read the book.
 

Amadan

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After reading this thread, I want to read the book.


I've read the first chapter. It's really not worth it. Even if it weren't horribly racist (or horribly racist stories don't bother you), it's really horribly written.
 

thothguard51

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After reading Jeff's response about this incident at WT, as well as the responses to his blog, this has confirmed, for me, that Hollywood is the new connection between WT and VF. A scratch my back and I'll scratch yours type of connection.

WT is off my list of reading material. There are other magazines and where ever Ann ends up, they will be better served than WT without her.

This is just my humble opinion, but it seems the new owners are less concerned with finding quality work that fits into WT format, and more about supporting their HW friends. In this age of Internet searches, did they really think suspected links would not get out? Did they feel they could white wash this whole episode as a miscommunication type of event?
 

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After reading all the comments at WT and JV's post, it's really starting to sound like the publisher/editor really expected their entire diverse, strange, fantasy fan readership to agree with them about the genius of this racist novel. How much were they getting paid to ignore all the criticism and imagine to themselves that the magazine's reputation as awesome would protect them? Baffling.
They probably figured that sf/f has been used as a sounding board for social commentary and this was An Important Book.
 

Filigree

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Delaney's books were Important Books, as were Octavia Butler's books and Blackman's NOUGHTS AND CROSSES. They all followed some fearless ideas, and framed them in amazing prose.

I'm sorry, Foyt isn't in their league. I'm one of the people who read the first chapter of Foyt's novel online. I thought the craftsmanship was so awkward it couldn't uplift the problematic elements of the story.

Sometimes, self-publishers with dollar$ are their own worst enemy.
 

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The first time I heard about the book, I thought it must be some Onion-like parody of what would white-supremacist YA fantasy look like. Like most writers I know, I mentally question everything I write, turning it around, trying to look at it from different directions. Therefore I find it incredible that she spent so many hours on her book yet never thought "wait--coals???"
 

Atlantis

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We know she's a member since the thread began really :/ she's never commented in here though.

Oh, gee, I wonder why? Could it be because of the pages and pages and pages of people here attacking her?

I found this thread disgusting. Yes this woman has written a thought provoking book that deals with racism. And yes the title sounds terribly racist and when I first heard about it I was shocked and a little disgusted.

But you know what? Attacking the author is just wrong. What happened to the rule here to respect your fellow author? What happened to free speech?

Racism is disgusting but you know what else is? Censorship. If you don't like this book don't read it. If you have read it and didn't like it post a bad review and then leave it at that.

This woman does not deserve to have people attacking her on here, or on facebook, or on her website, or anywhere else. Seriously...pick your battles. There are bigger and better things in this world to get all mad about then a self-published book with a bad front cover and a terrible title and a ballsy plot.

I don't know if this woman is a racist or not. She might be. She might not be. I've read that she says she is not. That should be the end of the conversation...but the trolls have come out now. When is this going to end? Shall we brand the word racist on her forehead? Will that be enough?

Two wrongs do not make a right. Yes this book comes off as incredibly racist...but that was the POINT OF IT. To get people talking about racism toward black and white people.

I hope Victoria does not read this thread. Because the comments in here were just terrible. Shall we burn Victoria at the stake? Or can we learn to live and let live? Victoria has her own opinons. You don't have to like them. Attacking her as a PERSON or telling people not to buy her book is just WRONG WRONG WONG.
 

Unimportant

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Oh, gee, I wonder why? Could it be because of the pages and pages and pages of people here attacking her?

I found this thread disgusting. Yes this woman has written a thought provoking book that deals with racism. And yes the title sounds terribly racist and when I first heard about it I was shocked and a little disgusted.

But you know what? Attacking the author is just wrong. What happened to the rule here to respect your fellow author? What happened to free speech?

Racism is disgusting but you know what else is? Censorship. If you don't like this book don't read it. If you have read it and didn't like it post a bad review and then leave it at that.

This woman does not deserve to have people attacking her on here, or on facebook, or on her website, or anywhere else. Seriously...pick your battles. There are bigger and better things in this world to get all mad about then a self-published book with a bad front cover and a terrible title and a ballsy plot.

I don't know if this woman is a racist or not. She might be. She might not be. I've read that she says she is not. That should be the end of the conversation...but the trolls have come out now. When is this going to end? Shall we brand the word racist on her forehead? Will that be enough?

Two wrongs do not make a right. Yes this book comes off as incredibly racist...but that was the POINT OF IT. To get people talking about racism toward black and white people.

I hope Victoria does not read this thread. Because the comments in here were just terrible. Shall we burn Victoria at the stake? Or can we learn to live and let live? Victoria has her own opinons. You don't have to like them. Attacking her as a PERSON or telling people not to buy her book is just WRONG WRONG WONG.

The mods have been very active to ensure that the discussion remains on the book and does not cross the line to attacking the author:

There's a reason you've seen me reminding people to


talk about the text, not about the author.

If you see posts that offend, hit the red (!) button and report them to a mod.

There is a pretty solid consensus that the book is quite racist and promotes ugly, negative stereotypes. Certainly a read of the first chapter gives a very strong impression of that. And if people --both writers and readers -- don't discuss the damage that such books can cause, then they will continue to be published. Just as authors have spoken out against their covers being whitewashed, so too should we speak out against books that promote racism. (IMO)
 

Amadan

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Oh, gee, I wonder why? Could it be because of the pages and pages and pages of people here attacking her?

Anyone who has attacked her has been admonished by the mods.

But you know what? Attacking the author is just wrong. What happened to the rule here to respect your fellow author? What happened to free speech?
Respecting an author doesn't mean we have to respect what she's written. And whose free speech is being violated?

Racism is disgusting but you know what else is? Censorship. If you don't like this book don't read it. If you have read it and didn't like it post a bad review and then leave it at that.
Who has suggested censorship? No, really, who? Show me one person who has called for the book to be banned or censored?

Seriously...pick your battles. There are bigger and better things in this world to get all mad about then a self-published book with a bad front cover and a terrible title and a ballsy plot.
Ballsy, huh? That's one way to put it. But really, you're going to go for the "Why aren't you worried about starving people in Africa?" argument? You know, people can simultaneously have thoughts about a racist book and about starving people in Africa.

I don't know if this woman is a racist or not. She might be. She might not be. I've read that she says she is not. That should be the end of the conversation...
Really? So anyone who says they aren't racist is thereby immune to accusations of racism?

but the trolls have come out now. When is this going to end? Shall we brand the word racist on her forehead? Will that be enough?
Trolls? Really?

Two wrongs do not make a right. Yes this book comes off as incredibly racist...but that was the POINT OF IT. To get people talking about racism toward black and white people.
People are talking, mostly about how badly this book failed in its stated intent.

I hope Victoria does not read this thread. Because the comments in here were just terrible. Shall we burn Victoria at the stake? Or can we learn to live and let live? Victoria has her own opinons. You don't have to like them. Attacking her as a PERSON or telling people not to buy her book is just WRONG WRONG WONG.
Ms. Foyt probably has read this thread. I don't doubt she hasn't enjoyed it. If she posted, I think people would have very pointed questions for her, but no one would be allowed to "attack" her.

And no, it is not WRONG WRONG WRONG to encourage people not to buy something you find offensive.
 
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aruna

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Atlantis: free speech works both ways. She was free to write the book, and she is free to keep it in circulation. Other people are free to review the book negatively and to express theit disgust or concern at the ideas it propagates.

As Amadan said, nobody has called for the book to be censored or banned. At the most, people have expressed the wish that she would pull it herself -- mostly for her own good, because of the reputation it will bring her. I do think it was written out of ignorance, with good intentions, rather that out of malice. Yes, there's a lot of anger and disgust in the thread but it's directed at the author's words, not at her person.

Feel free to report any post which you think is an attack on the author.
 
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Polenth

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Oh, gee, I wonder why? Could it be because of the pages and pages and pages of people here attacking her?

I found this thread disgusting. Yes this woman has written a thought provoking book that deals with racism. And yes the title sounds terribly racist and when I first heard about it I was shocked and a little disgusted.

But you know what? Attacking the author is just wrong. What happened to the rule here to respect your fellow author? What happened to free speech?

Racism is disgusting but you know what else is? Censorship. If you don't like this book don't read it. If you have read it and didn't like it post a bad review and then leave it at that.

This woman does not deserve to have people attacking her on here, or on facebook, or on her website, or anywhere else. Seriously...pick your battles. There are bigger and better things in this world to get all mad about then a self-published book with a bad front cover and a terrible title and a ballsy plot.

I don't know if this woman is a racist or not. She might be. She might not be. I've read that she says she is not. That should be the end of the conversation...but the trolls have come out now. When is this going to end? Shall we brand the word racist on her forehead? Will that be enough?

Two wrongs do not make a right. Yes this book comes off as incredibly racist...but that was the POINT OF IT. To get people talking about racism toward black and white people.

I hope Victoria does not read this thread. Because the comments in here were just terrible. Shall we burn Victoria at the stake? Or can we learn to live and let live? Victoria has her own opinons. You don't have to like them. Attacking her as a PERSON or telling people not to buy her book is just WRONG WRONG WONG.

Your post comes across as though being called a racist is worse than experiencing racism. It isn't.

This is a forum where we discuss racial issues in writing. We look at racist tropes and stereotypes, with a view to changing all that. We look at the treatment of authors of colour, with a view to changing that too. It's not helpful to come into the forum and tell people they should be quiet, because doing otherwise is mean. Yes, it hurts for someone to point out you failed, but it hurts the people who read the failure more.

The thread actually would have faded away, if it wasn't for the Weird Tales issue, which wasn't a rehash of book content. It was a commentary on the issue of promotion. An author of colour self-publishing a book about his/her own experiences of racism would not get the Huffington Post articles or Weird Tales wanting to run their first chapter. This is an example of a bigger issue, where it's not uncommon for white authors to get to define what racism means, what is and isn't racist, and to win awards for doing so... despite getting it very wrong. Meanwhile, authors of colour struggle to get a book deal because their work is "too ethnic" and other excuses.

We absolutely should keep talking about those issues, and this is the forum set aside for doing so.
 

Ken

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… like most, I am outraged by the publication of this “novel.” Such backwards ideology has no place in contemporary times. It’s the sort of thing one might expect in works from bygone eras.

Actually, there is a thread in this forum about one such, if I’m not mistaken. “The Adventures of Tin Tin” or something or other.

Okay. There’s a flimsy excuse for that comic book. It was “a product of the times,” some say. But where is the excuse for the work under discussion? There is none.

There is one uplifting thing about this disturbing event: the backlash, exhibited here and elsewhere. We stand up for one another in the face of injustice and fight under the common flag of humanity.
 
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thebloodfiend

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Oh, gee, I wonder why? Could it be because of the pages and pages and pages of people here attacking her?

I found this thread disgusting. Yes this woman has written a thought provoking book that deals with racism. And yes the title sounds terribly racist and when I first heard about it I was shocked and a little disgusted.

But you know what? Attacking the author is just wrong. What happened to the rule here to respect your fellow author? What happened to free speech?

Racism is disgusting but you know what else is? Censorship. If you don't like this book don't read it. If you have read it and didn't like it post a bad review and then leave it at that.

This woman does not deserve to have people attacking her on here, or on facebook, or on her website, or anywhere else. Seriously...pick your battles. There are bigger and better things in this world to get all mad about then a self-published book with a bad front cover and a terrible title and a ballsy plot.

I don't know if this woman is a racist or not. She might be. She might not be. I've read that she says she is not. That should be the end of the conversation...but the trolls have come out now. When is this going to end? Shall we brand the word racist on her forehead? Will that be enough?

Two wrongs do not make a right. Yes this book comes off as incredibly racist...but that was the POINT OF IT. To get people talking about racism toward black and white people.

I hope Victoria does not read this thread. Because the comments in here were just terrible. Shall we burn Victoria at the stake? Or can we learn to live and let live? Victoria has her own opinons. You don't have to like them. Attacking her as a PERSON or telling people not to buy her book is just WRONG WRONG WONG.

:rolleyes

Ah, yes, proceed to lecture the PoC about racism and freedom of speech in regards to an overtly offensive book. Ignore the fact that another book with a similar premise - Noughts and Crosses - received praise, because you obviously know everything there is to know about the book and subtle ignorant racism.

Why don't you get back to us when someone actually insults Foyt. Or better yet, explain how saying you're not racist makes it the truth? Does that work for crimes? Can you explain the blackface?
 

Rachel Udin

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I'm not one for gang up mentalities. So I'm not going there.

I will correct and say that Victoria Foyt didn't win any awards. She paid to win them.

I'm also a bit shocked that the Huffington Post didn't get wind of it since that seems to be a very liberal website. Maybe *if* (not doing it) there were *polite* notes with links about it, they would not allow the articles? (I don't think there is much use now).

Mostly, at this point, I think it's time to move onto talking about Weird Tales. I'm kinda disappointed. I really, really hope that Weird Tales could turn around in the future. The death of markets is sad.

I also saw books mentioned in the WT threads that wasn't mentioned here. Anyone know if any are good?

Blonde roots by Bernadine Evaristo
In the United States of Africa by Abdourahman Waberi
Lions Blood by Steve Barnes

I rather get something positive out of this whole debacle... like new books to read.
 

Polenth

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I will correct and say that Victoria Foyt didn't win any awards. She paid to win them.

My comment on awards was part of the bigger issues section. I realise her 'awards' weren't the real deal, but it's not unusual for books that get it very wrong to win real awards.
 

Rachel Udin

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I've only read Lion's Blood. The prose and characterizations weren't all that great, imo, but the world building was fabulous.

Speaking of lists, here's a compilation of the books mentioned with the #23ThoroughlyGoodBooksbyPOC hashtag:

http://megwrites.dreamwidth.org/230684.html
It's supposed to be books on examples of good race reversals... I think... that was the point. Do you have any others along that line that were *good* representations of that?

As a side topic, you missed Amy Tan... at least I think she's good.
 

eqb

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Sorry, I misread your earlier post. I was just pleased when I came across this other list and wanted to share. One of us could contact the person who created it to remind her about Amy Tan. (Who is excellent, I agree.)
 

Polenth

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Sorry, I misread your earlier post. I was just pleased when I came across this other list and wanted to share. One of us could contact the person who created it to remind her about Amy Tan. (Who is excellent, I agree.)

The list is compiled from a Twitter hashtag, so if it's missing a name, it means it wasn't tweeted. To add a name, tweet the book followed by #ThoroughlyGoodBooksByPOC

It's best to do it through the hashtag, as a number of people were making lists based on it.
 

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The book has now been reviewed on Guardian's Book Blogs.
I'm really sorry the brouhaha has gone into the mainstream. For us in this forum, where we discuss what not to do when writing about race, it's offered the quintessential model. I'm not so sure the general public "out there" need to know about this book's existence.
 

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The book has now been reviewed on Guardian's Book Blogs.
I'm really sorry the brouhaha has gone into the mainstream. For us in this forum, where we discuss what not to do when writing about race, it's offered the quintessential model. I'm not so sure the general public "out there" need to know about this book's existence.

I know what you mean, but I don't think this review is selling too many copies. Some choice bits:


This led some readers to worry that this was unjustifiable censorship – that Foyt's use of blackface and descriptions of black men as "beasts", might have been sited in a whole-book context which examined them, inverted them and, having revealed them as diseased faeces, flushed them away with the triumphant sluice of literary prowess.

But if that's the sort of bilge with which Weird Tales wants to spray its readers, I shan't ask for a subscription for Christmas.
 

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The book has now been reviewed on Guardian's Book Blogs.
I'm really sorry the brouhaha has gone into the mainstream. For us in this forum, where we discuss what not to do when writing about race, it's offered the quintessential model. I'm not so sure the general public "out there" need to know about this book's existence.
The deeper this goes, the more it appears that WT's Mr. Kaye and Mr. Harlacher propped the book up just so it could get media coverage. This would've been forgotten as another bad piece of literature (if you can call it that), had they never mentioned it.
 

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In WT's case the Hollywood connection is particularly problematic. Who knows if they genuinely thought the book needed a media champion, or if they were engaged in some kind of back-room publicity exchange.

Given the amount of money being directed at YA dystopian treatments in the movie industry, I can see where the editors of WT might want a connection. In this case, it backfired horribly.
 
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