HUGE Problem...Help me, Agents!

PeteDutcher said:

How big an excerpt could I post? I was thinking the first 3-4 chapters may?

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I don't know how long your chapters are. Start with like 2000 words or so.

You'll see how much people can tell from that.

PeteDutcher said:

I do have subplots...but I think they are important to the story. Usually, to introduce a character to the reader just before he joins the main characters or something like that.

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1. what you think only matters as an absolute if you are only writing for yourself. Otherwise, it is product. If you're selling a product, you either meet expectations of your customer, or do not sell. That ain't sexy, but it is a truth worth cozying up to.

1A. Point 1 does not automatically equal "whoring oneself," "selling out," or anything of the sort.

2. What you're talking about is indeed done....in The Stand, for instance, but if you know you have an issue, it seems a pretty easy fix: King is known for Bloat. And was a phenom before he ever tried to pitch The Stand. If you aren't Stevie, and you already know this stands to be a problem, though....you really can cut subplots. That said, from this post I'm wondering how much you can cut just by eliminating your "intro to a bit-player" chapters. If I read your last bolded bit correctly, you have entire chapters dedicated to non-MCs before they meet the MC, which could be shortened to introducing the bit-players when the MC actually meets them, and adding just enough detail along the course of their interaction to show us who they are, and what their motivations are and stuff--right now it sounds like those chapters are essentially back-story, tbh.

PeteDutcher said:

I do have subplots...but I think they are important to the story. Usually, to introduce a character to the reader just before he joins the main characters or something like that.

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quicklime said:

That said, from this post I'm wondering how much you can cut just by eliminating your "intro to a bit-player" chapters. If I read your last bolded bit correctly, you have entire chapters dedicated to non-MCs before they meet the MC, which could be shortened to introducing the bit-players when the MC actually meets them, and adding just enough detail along the course of their interaction to show us who they are, and what their motivations are and stuff--right now it sounds like those chapters are essentially back-story, tbh.

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Ditto quicklime. A chapter or scene purely to introduce a side character before the MC meets them is the kind of chapter/scene only doing one thing that should be cut.

PeteDutcher said:

It's difficult for me to explain, which isn't a good thing, I know.

Here's an example of what I meant by introducing new characters in different scenes.

There is a prophet near death that plays a key secondary role. In this story, when a prophet is near the end of his years, he chooses a disciple to mentor and take his place...passing the torch, so to speak. When he dies, his power of understanding prophecy and receiving prophecy is passed on to the disciple.

In this case, the prophet is human. The disciple is of a troll-like race (first time in this world a member of the race will become a prophet).

When the story starts, the two are apart because the prophet sent her (the troll-like disciple) on a mission of research and to recruit another character into the quest.

The third character is a trapper deep within the mountain and his survival skills will be needed. They have never met (prophecy directs the prophet). So in the middle of the night, the troll-like disciple appears at the trapper's campfire. The trapper, of course, is a little freaked at first.

The interaction demonstrates several key points. The Disciple is born of a race that is judged harshly and feared. The trapper is a loner and not prone to joining any sort of group endeavors.

(now my wife has been interrupting me for 20 minutes and I have lost my train of thought,lol)

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You don't need an introductory chapter for this at all. In fact, it takes away the impact of the meeting if you give it any lead in. Start with the trapper, start with his own "normal mode" that gets interrupted by "OH CRAP!" as scary character shows up. We follow his trail of thoughts, wondering why he happens to be so afraid and shocked by this appearance - we don't know why he's so afraid -> which means we keep reading, to find out more. With the introductory chapters you're killing the anticipation/surprise before it can sprout leaves.

Through the disciple arguing with the trapper about help on this quest, the audience/reader will already have plenty of opportunity to learn about what's going on. Their dialogue and interactions as they both try to get what they want and succeed or not, through that conflict you can show the reader the background.

pete, there's 2 concerns at play I think:

1. CAN you tighten it? Folks here haven't seen the work, but I suspect you can. Part general experience, part some of your posts including QLH, part the general belief ANY story can be tightened, even if it sometimes is to the detriment of the story.....

2. Are you WILLING to tighten it?


we can help with the former, the latter is entirely on you. your word count may still get you an agent, too. nobody can say for certain. That said, even in your example one could lose the survival skills needed bit. Or start with them on an icy mountain, and a single line somewhere "Trollella thought of the first time she'd met the trapper, the fear and revulsion as he crouched at the edge of his campfire--now he was holding to her like a tick. Funny how icy granite and a thousand-wheel drop made a guy cozy up to a cave-beast..." It would alter the story, but sometimes that's what is needed. you HAVE choices....

There is a fine and dicey line between what is needed for the story, and what is just wanted, really badly. You'll have to decide where you are in that, but again, SYW may help.

Pete, that can all be explained in a few sentences of dialogue when the trapper and the disciple meet. It doesn't require several scenes in which it's all explained.

Filigree said:

Please don't be coy and query agents without mentioning word count. They really don't like that. Be honest. Be ready to trim or split your mms at the agent's urging.

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Yep agree, if its tight with every word counting and you can't trim it, think of splitting it.

I still think a detailed synopsis should help you figure out what you can trim. Anything that doesn't directly affect the major plot is something that should be potentially on the chopping block.

Seconding what others have said... it's LIKELY that you'll be able to cut it down to 100-120k, a more sellable length for a debut fantasy.

My first draft was 148,000 words.
Started sending to beta readers at 111k.
Started querying at 109.
Revised based on rejections to 104.
Revised again based on helpful rejections to 88k.
Signed with an agent.
(Not fantasy... you're probably fine with more than 88k. )

I didn't cut any characters or subplots... I did cut SCENES that weren't necessary, and a LOT of redundant descriptions.

Not actual examples from my book, but things like cutting "that" from something like: "the woman that he had met the other night" (well, I'd probably really cut that down to "the woman from the other night" or something... even shorter! Just playing around with specific wording.)

Or cutting something like "The cherries were red and juicy, the juice dribbling down his chin as he greedily dug in" to "Cherry juice dribbled down his chin as he dug in." (If the cherries were NOT red you'd need to mention it, otherwise that can be inferred. No need to say "juice" AND "juicy," and "greedily" can be inferred.)

...forgive my bad examples, but I hope that gives you an idea of some ways to trim a couple thousand words without necessarily cutting any characters or subplots (although, sometimes that needs to happen too).

Have you sent it to a beta reader? Someone with a sharp eye may be able to mark it up for you with cutting the word count specifically in mind!

PeteDutcher said:

It is explained in one scene. By a separate set of scenes, I meant apart from the main character in one individual scene (when the disciple approaches the trapper).

I could have been more clear one that.

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It is still a scene you don;t need, if you can make the later scene do all ot does (and you can -- I can see it pretty clearly even)

Each scene needs to do more than one thing-- if you are just introing,. or "just" anything else, it can be melded into another scene which can do two or more things

So, your scene were your trapper meets your "troll" -- why can it not do everything the earlier scene does AND what the later one does? That is, it intros your troll at the same time as introing your MC AND advancing the plot? Plus maybe some worldbuilding and atmosphere.

Readers do not need as much explanation as you think they do. Trust me, I have fallen into that trap myself...

yeah I would probably cut it in two like others have said.

Martin already had a name as a writer when ASOIAF debuted. (Television credits as well.)

I'd say that 120k to 125k is your mark. 80k for a single book epic fantasy is too low, imho. For first in a series, sure.

My original manuscript for my current work in progress was 154k. It's taken time, but it's down to 136k now (and I WILL get it to 125k eventually). It really is a matter of learning where to cut and how to cut. For me, this meant cutting one of my 6 POV characters--a more peripheral character, but it saved me 12k. The rest of the reducing was simply cutting out redundancy and learning how to be efficient. For example, do I need that adjective + that verb? Or can I just find a more dynamic verb?

This is helpful.

You really have only two pragmatic options here:

1. Cut it down. Just do it.
2. Split it.

The less pragmatic (3rd) option is to go the Patrick Rothfuss route and enter a section of the novel into the Writers of the Future contest. That's what he did. He pulled out a section from Wise Man's Fear, gave it a "faux" ending and submitted it. (The "faux ending is important as they will not accept words without fully realized endings.) You do get to keep all rights.

It was by winning that contest (Quarter 2) that he was able to go to the week-long workshop and celebration and meet Kevin J. Anderson. Anderson asked for the manuscript then passed it on to his publisher and the rest is history. A back-door route, so to say. But the contest is controversial because of the L. Ron Hubbard connection. It's still the biggest contest of its kind in the world and has launched several authors' careers.

There might be other contests out there, but (again), it's kind of a Hail Mary.

Here's my own $0.02:

I don't pick up a book over 450 pages in the bookstore, unless it's by an author I adore. (This means I haven't read any of the GRR Martin books, and never intend to). I am not necessarily in the majority, but I do think I'm in a large minority. I think the publishers are quite aware of people like me. So aside from bloating their printing costs, a huge book also shrinks their potential readership. A double whammy.

Besides, I have yet to find a single book over 500 pages that couldn't have been cut to below 450. Books that big are verbose and self-indulgent. They have lots of irrelevant subplots, b/c their authors are so in love with their characters, or their writing, that they simply don't know when to stop. They put me to sleep.

megajo29 said:

Books that big are verbose and self-indulgent. They have lots of irrelevant subplots, b/c their authors are so in love with their characters, or their writing, that they simply don't know when to stop.

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I don't think that's always the case, but it often is. When it's not true, however, a long book can be absolutely wonderful.

megajo29 said:

Here's my own $0.02:

I don't pick up a book over 450 pages in the bookstore, unless it's by an author I adore. (This means I haven't read any of the GRR Martin books, and never intend to).

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My heart weeps for you. Honestly, it does. I'm looking at my bookshelf of favourites right now and most of those books are well over 450 pages.

George RR Martin is definitely one of my great loves, but I can't entirely dispute that sometimes he does go a bit overboard with descriptions. Still, I lap them up like a dying man in the desert.

However, one of the other books on my 'favourites' list that I adore - Bring up the Bodies by Hilary Mantel is an example of terrific, tight, emotive prose. I don't even generally like books written in the first person but DAMN does that woman pull it off. The paperback copy I'm holding comes in at 485 pages. Please don't reject books as verbose just because of the page count. At least flip it open and read a few pages to check the prose!

Seconding Oceansoul. Having an arbitrary maximum length for books can divert readers from some really great books. Yeah, some could have been trimmed, while others should have been expanded. I'm more about the story quality. I'm reading an online serial right now that is probably two-thirds complete at 220K, and it's one of the finest fantasy/romance/thrillers I've ever seen.

Oh god I'm Team Doorstopper all the way. I primarily read historical fiction, though, so I freaking love a book that will pull me into a character's world and keep me there for (fictional, not actual) years. But there's a difference between simply long and well-written long. I've read some novels over 450 pages that really could have been shorter.

THE LUMINARIES clocks in at like 900 pages, but Catton had a lot of credentials, a previous novel, and went on to win the Booker prize. I bought that one as an e-book because of my poor bum shoulder.

Old Hack said:

I don't think that's always the case, but it often is. When it's not true, however, a long book can be absolutely wonderful.

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I second this. My husband and I just had a discussion about this recently. Both of us are avid readers who can easily devour a 500 page novel in a few short days, as long as its interesting; and those are the stories that we usually wish were longer. Shoot, my husband won't even consider anything below 400 pages typically, because when he reads he wants to be immersed in another world--so he says, "The longer the book, the better." I'm less discriminative. I look for the book jacket that hooks me and then I read it, regardless of length; however, I also tend to expect that the book could've been longer to explain more things, and am usually unsatisfied by the end of it. So if it's 300 or less pages, I first check if its a series or stand alone, then go from there.

I was recently annoyed when looking for a quick stand alone--no mention of a series anywhere on it--and bought one that was 296 pages. I finished it in four hours, first hundred pages of protag doing a whole lot of nothing, but thinking--then I was beyond irritated when the story had just started to gain my interest at page 200 and it ended abruptly in the MIDDLE of a battle scene. As a reader, I was furious and it was a major letdown. As a writer, I was appalled. I felt it was a terrible cliffhanger gimmick, and boycott reading book two whenever it happens to get published. (Debut author).

I wrote my book with the reader in mind. I've cut down 13k so far, and am still finding ways to try and get it down to 120k for my debut urban fantasy (so I have another 15k to go). Cutting out words like "that" and replacing adverbs, among other great tips I got from this forum helped a lot. I also have backstory that was 10k of what I cut out. I shortened it, but may just cut it out altogether and just relay it through natural dialogue between characters sometime in book two.

Anyway, like everyone else mentioned - try SYW. And start with just a chapter. You as the author would know best about what should stay in your story, but having fresh and constructive eyes will help you out tremendously. So try SYW. JMO. Good luck!

This is epic fantasy. I feel like this needs to be pinned somewhere on this thread. That's not to say that you want a bloated, scary monster. Game of Thrones (coming in at 298k words) was pretty freakin' tight. Especially compared to what followed.

Yep, Martin had a track record already. Nope, they aren't likely to publish that size book for debut authors. (I said "aren't likely," so it is possible, but boy, you better be Patrick Rothfuss amazing.)

I guess I could just say, "I avoid books over 731 pages. EXACTLY." Seems strange to me. I've never met an avid read that said, "Hmm, nawww, it's too many pages."

(I have the Emperor in my head from Amadeus, telling him, "There's just too many notes." Weird. Anyway...)

I would take readers off your plate when it comes to epic fantasy word count. Entirely. Think publishers. Think agents. That's your way in, IMHO.

And I will echo what another person said: you can ALWAYS cut. And if you're the type of person who can't let anything go because you absolutely 100% NEED IT (precious) then writing is not the business for you.