Cursing in 18/19th century Ireland

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greendragon said:

I need your help. I am writing novels set in Ireland in 1846, 1800, and 1745. I need curses. I need words an Irishman or woman would yell at a man who had just punched him, or shot him in the arm. The equivalent in modern American would be 'You mother F*ing A**hole!" Something strong! Also, general frustration curses, the equivalent of "Damnit all to hell!" Have you a few suggestions for me? They don't have to be vulgar, but they need to have kick. Something more than 'you idjit!' Points for creativity and color, as that is patently Irish

The characters are all farmers/working class.

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I suggest checking out an etymology dictionary. You'll be surprised by what you think are Americanisms, and are actually far older. "Fuck" for instance is used in the sense you are talking about is Anglo-Saxon, but its roots go back to Classical Latin, where the Romans used it (the Latin word anyway) for sex. It would be quite acceptable for a Roman character to say "are you fucking that slave-girl" (this is a line from my book). As for "asshole" a quick search tells me it dates from the 1930s, as a variant on "arsehole" that is dated to around 1400 CE (In Old English, Latin anus was glossed with earsðerl, literally "arse-thrill".)

Personally I would avoid "idjit" and "go feck off" as they are clichéd and come across as stereotypical. I don't see why you can't use phrases that seem blasphemous. Ireland was as religious as any other country in those centuries. Or read some 18th century novels, some of the biggest names where Irish (Jonathan Swift, Lawrence Sterne, Oscar Wilde).

Check out Francis Grose's Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue (this version is 1811), and search "Irish" and "Ireland." You should find something useful there--plus it's a fascinating thing to browse in general.

For what it's worth, my great-grandfather, born in the 19th century, apparently used to say "Oh be the hokey" as a curse/exclamation of astonishment. We think it was originally "Oh, by the holy" or something. I think it's safe to say that religious things were used pretty often as swearing.

Often people will find swearing anachronistic if it's too close to the modern usage. I have seen "go fuck yourself" being used in the 17th century, but I think most people would think that was entirely too modern...

Also, it's interesting with swear words as they tend to reflect taboos of the particular society they're used in. In Swedish (my first language) all traditional swear words are actually religious - it's mostly variations on the Devil: "jävla", "satan", "fan" are the most common ones and they are all names for him. The other most common swear word is "helvete" (Hell). We have no sexual swearwords at all traditionally (although you could obviously impugn a woman's honour by calling her names such as "hora" (whore)). But we have no equivalent of "fuck" and though sexual language as swear words is becoming more common through influence from English and immigration by people in whose first languages it's common, the "go-to words" for most people are still those religious ones.

ETA: My very favourite insult I have come across in English is 17th or 18th century (cannot for the life of me remember the exact source): "go to Hell and help your mother make bitch pie". It's impossible not to understand it's a grave form of abuse.

I went and did a quick search for some traditional Irish curses-- this page has quite a few, for a start, many of which are quite creative: http://www.gaelicmatters.com/irish-curses.html

I particularly like: "May you melt off the earth like snow off the ditch," "May you be afflicted with an itch and have no nails to scratch with," "If you eat, that you may not shit," and "May the cat eat you, and may the devil eat the cat."

For shorter, more exclamatory ones there's "God damn your soul to hell!" "The devil mend you!" and plain old "To hell with you!". Religious curses like this would be more powerful then than now, in a highly religious society (as Flicka has already said). Even today, in Quebec, the traditional religious swear words (tabernacles) are considered much stronger than plain old "fuck" (even if that's used plenty too). Getting that across is something else entirely, but you can do some of the work with other character's reactions.

gothicangel said:

Personally I would avoid "idjit" and "go feck off" as they are clichéd and come across as stereotypical. I don't see why you can't use phrases that seem blasphemous. Ireland was as religious as any other country in those centuries. Or read some 18th century novels, some of the biggest names where Irish (Jonathan Swift, Lawrence Sterne, Oscar Wilde).

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Feck and idjit are more modern but they are stereotypical because they are used quite a bit in parts of Ireland. To be honest fuck is in frequent use and it's rather ancient.

I can't do that far back but my great-gran was Irish and born in 1881.
She rather liked pig's melt as her exclamation of choice. Anything involving hell she considered blasphemous. The only really strong words I ever heard her use were bugger or bloody. She also used sugar and sugar balls but I suspect they were more recent.

flapperphilosopher said:

"May the cat eat you, and may the devil eat the cat."

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That is absolutely brilliant. I really want to find someone to tell this now.

Usher said:

Feck and idjit are more modern but they are stereotypical because they are used quite a bit in parts of Ireland. To be honest fuck is in frequent use and it's rather ancient.

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Well, what's a cliché. if it isn't an overused saying? Personally, I would avoid using it because I would be thinking more of Father Ted or Mrs Brown's Boys and laughing at the writer rather than with them.

gothicangel said:

Well, what's a cliché. if it isn't an overused saying? Personally, I would avoid using it because I would be thinking more of Father Ted or Mrs Brown's Boys and laughing at the writer rather than with them.

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It would depend whether or not you consider it used frequently or overused. I've had Irish boyfriends who used feck when their mother was listening and idjit.

Is the or she or it or or -- cliche? or are they frequently used words.

Usher said:

It would depend whether or not you consider it used frequently or overused. I've had Irish boyfriends who used feck when their mother was listening and idjit.

Is the or she or it or or -- cliche? or are they frequently used words.

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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cliche