Most common pitfalls of white people writing POC?

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EvolvingK

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I have a job ghostwriting erotica, and the current series I'm working on is set in East Texas. I'm from Vermont.

Setting a story on the Mexican border, I'm well aware of the grossness of white-washing my cast, but I find myself really nervous about getting it wrong as I write the various characters who are non-white. Some things I'm actively doing: describing peoples' skin colors with actual words, not foods, watching out for unintentional analogies (all the good guys are white and all the bad guys are PoC).

I guess some tips on how to make a big ass out of myself is what I'm looking for. My name won't be on this work at all, but in a weird way that makes me even more cautious, because I'll never be able to apologize for it or fix it if I get it wrong.
 

Ken

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Familiarize yourself with Mexican culture. Also its history. Language too. An overview. If you have all that at your disposal you'll be able to make the right decisions. Otherwise you'll have to guess, at risk of getting it wrong and needing to rely on stereotypes, etc. Bottomline: research your subject. G'luck.
 

Fruitbat

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First, what do you mean by East Texas? Because what we call East Texas in Texas is over by Louisiana, a six or seven hour drive from the Mexican border. East Texas is probably more Black and White than Mexican and White, piney woods as opposed to the desert border area, etc. They're two pretty different environments.
 

EvolvingK

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First, what do you mean by East Texas? Because what we call East Texas in Texas is over by Louisiana, a six or seven hour drive from the Mexican border. East Texas is probably more Black and White than Mexican and White, piney woods as opposed to the desert border area, etc. They're two pretty different environments.

Interesting. The setting in the description I'm working from has East Texas, not far from the Mexican Border. Looks like I'm already a bit handicapped on getting this one right.

What would you call the closest major city in that area, proper East Texas? I'll work the rest out as best as I can and go from there.
 

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Interesting. The setting in the description I'm working from has East Texas, not far from the Mexican Border. Looks like I'm already a bit handicapped on getting this one right.

What would you call the closest major city in that area, proper East Texas? I'll work the rest out as best as I can and go from there.

Sorry I have no idea what you mean by East Texas. I live in Southeast Texas (Houston) and it's very multicultural here.... white, black, latino, asian, etc.

Do you mean like near San Antonio or Corpus Christi? Because that would definitely have more latinos.

Texas is a HUGE state so you need to be more specific.

texas_all.gif
 

EvolvingK

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Sorry I have no idea what you mean by East Texas. I live in Southeast Texas (Houston) and it's very multicultural here.... white, black, latino, asian, etc.

What I know about Texas personally is that I have an uncle who lives in El Paso. I know that's all the way over on the other side of the state, which boggles my mind; I can't drive three hours in any direction from where I am and still be in the same state.

The description I've gotten from the client is very vague, and I have a lot of latitude for filling in the details from the plot I get, which is basically something you'd find on the back cover description. But yeah, I have East Texas, near the Mexican Border. Sounds like I need to nail this down a lot more and go forward from there. And I thought PoC would be my biggest concern... :D

There aren't any "major" cities in East Texas. Here's a quick Wikipedia thing, for starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Texas

Thanks kindly. I'll do some more reading to get my geography right. I really appreciate your taking the time to correct my New Englander thinking on this one.
 

snowpea

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What I know about Texas personally is that I have an uncle who lives in El Paso. I know that's all the way over on the other side of the state, which boggles my mind; I can't drive three hours in any direction from where I am and still be in the same state.

The description I've gotten from the client is very vague, and I have a lot of latitude for filling in the details from the plot I get, which is basically something you'd find on the back cover description. But yeah, I have East Texas, near the Mexican Border. Sounds like I need to nail this down a lot more and go forward from there. And I thought PoC would be my biggest concern... :D



Thanks kindly. I'll do some more reading to get my geography right. I really appreciate your taking the time to correct my New Englander thinking on this one.

Lol it boggles my mind to drive an hour and be in another state.... It takes me an hour to get to the other side of Houston.
 

Fruitbat

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Oh, I know. Houston to El Paso is a twelve hour drive.
 

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I'm not an American , so I have no idea about East Texas . However, I understand the problems you might be having . Most people are the same , regardless of their origins . We all want our children to do well , our parents to be fit and healthy, and our bank balance to be in the black . Don't worry about being white , just see others as you see your self.
 

Jack Asher

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I love listening to Texans talk about how bit their state is. Did you know they wanted to split Alaska in two so that it wouldn't be the biggest state?

Unfortunately if you split Alaska in half, Texas would be the third largest state.
 

EvolvingK

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I love listening to Texans talk about how bit their state is. Did you know they wanted to split Alaska in two so that it wouldn't be the biggest state?

Unfortunately if you split Alaska in half, Texas would be the third largest state.

Heh :D

Vermont's big claim to "fame" is that we had to threaten to join Canada before we could join the U.S. Good times.
 

Jack Asher

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It's important for the Original Poster to be aware of local demographics as well. Most of the Hispanic community in Colorado is from Mexico, but we also have a large population of Ethiopians, Nepalese, and Mongolians (it's the similar altitude).

The Hispanics in her tiny town could easily be Guatemalans, Hondurans and Colombians. Texas is a border state, so immigrants from all countries go through there, but they won't all settle in the same place. They'll find communities with similar people.
 

Polenth

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The biggest thing I've noticed in books with a strong relationship element is exotifying the PoC/non-white love interest, in a way that makes the interest in them seem to be a race-based fetish. And as I only usually read the opening chapters in SYW, it's amazing how the author manages to create this impression when the characters have only just met.

It can be hard to place why it comes across as a fetish, but one is an obsessive focus on racial features. This could happen even with plain descriptions, as if you keep mentioning how brown they are, and how sexy their brown skin is, it's going to come across that way. Such descriptions also often avoid stuff that is usually obsessed about when the character is white (nice smile, big muscles, or whatever else).

Another is stereotypes tend to be turned up to the max. Native American men are stoic and otherworldy. Asian women are small and submissive. Black men are powerful and scary. These expectations of how people will behave in relationships get applied to real people, so you can likely find a lot online of people's bad experiences of dating white people with a race fetish. It'll give you some idea of the common expectations for a particular group.
 

EvolvingK

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It's important for the Original Poster to be aware of local demographics as well. Most of the Hispanic community in Colorado is from Mexico, but we also have a large population of Ethiopians, Nepalese, and Mongolians (it's the similar altitude).

The Hispanics in her tiny town could easily be Guatemalans, Hondurans and Colombians. Texas is a border state, so immigrants from all countries go through there, but they won't all settle in the same place. They'll find communities with similar people.

Thankfully, the town itself is made up, so I can pick something and run with it.

The biggest thing I've noticed in books with a strong relationship element is exotifying the PoC/non-white love interest, in a way that makes the interest in them seem to be a race-based fetish. And as I only usually read the opening chapters in SYW, it's amazing how the author manages to create this impression when the characters have only just met...

I know what you mean; I run into this sometimes when reading LGBT erotica written by folks who aren't LGBT. Characters get all focused on stuff that I would be kind of ...and? over.

Thank you for the rest of it; avoiding stereotypes is a big thing, clearly. What I'm hearing (and I think I really just needed to hear this in my own head) is to make sure that a character's ethnicity adds to their personhood, and not the other way around.
 

Cathy C

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Just FYI, If you look at the map that snowpea kindly linked, there isn't a place in east Texas that borders Mexico. If you're setting it on the Mexican border, you're looking at west or south Texas, which, as far as attitudes of people, are drastically different than east Texas. I'm in central Texas, which has also vastly different personalities. If the OP's uncle is in El Paso, that's extreme west Texas. There is actually a fence that separates El Paso from Mexico, which is a very volatile area. It's both a meeting place where separated families have picnics, and places where there is random violence. People on the Mexico side throw rocks at the police and scream obscenities. It's a very interesting area. This is an interesting link to learn more about the area.

You might also consider posting on Twitter for people who live there and ask about interesting things that have happened to them. Those sort of things make great backstory. :)
 

EvolvingK

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Just FYI, If you look at the map that snowpea kindly linked, there isn't a place in east Texas that borders Mexico. If you're setting it on the Mexican border, you're looking at west or south Texas, which, as far as attitudes of people, are drastically different than east Texas. I'm in central Texas, which has also vastly different personalities. If the OP's uncle is in El Paso, that's extreme west Texas. There is actually a fence that separates El Paso from Mexico, which is a very volatile area. It's both a meeting place where separated families have picnics, and places where there is random violence. People on the Mexico side throw rocks at the police and scream obscenities. It's a very interesting area. This is an interesting link to learn more about the area.

No, I've definitely seen that. So I'm heading more for "in East Texas, several hours from the border," which seems to be fine, and if the client objects, I'll point out a map. Should be fine.
 

Fruitbat

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After my last post, I realized it could also just be that whoever wants you to use this setting is not familiar with Texas. I could see someone calling the part of the Texas/Mexico border that's on the Gulf of Mexico "east" Texas just because when you look at a map, it's definitely on the east side of Texas, as opposed to the west side. That would be a much larger area than the region we know as East Texas. So it could just be a confusion over what they mean by "east," too.
 
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Fruitbat

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About writing PoC when you're not PoC. I have a story from a White MC's POV but including some Black people, set in the 1950's. I posted it and asked for help on another board and it started a squabble that didn't have much to do with my story.

Strangely, the mess was mostly White people who seemed to see themselves as spokespeople for the Black community but without having had much interaction with them and being born decades after the time of my story. And an older White guy was furious because he "was tired of people making his city look bad" (I chose it because I lived there for several years). Etc. I still got some good advice in between all that, but I'd watch for who is advising, as much as you can anyway. But I guess that goes for anything.

I'd write the story that you want to write. Then have it gone over to see what you might have missed. But maybe some extra care there, like requesting help from people of whatever group you have the questions about or just not responding to anything that's off the topic of helping you with your story.
 
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Roxxsmom

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I don't think it would hurt to acquaint oneself with some of the more obvious mistakes that crop up in novels. It's been pointed out elsewhere that it's not the responsibility of PoC to educate white people about racism, especially the more obvious things about it.

The fact that East Texas does not actually share a border with Mexico, and is hundreds of miles away from the Mexican/US border, for instance, is something that's pretty easy to research. It makes me wonder whether the people who are commissioning this writing project have all their ducks in a row.

I suppose it all depends on how much leeway they're giving you as a writer re the particulars of the story and setting too.
 
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Marian Perera

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The biggest thing I've noticed in books with a strong relationship element is exotifying the PoC/non-white love interest, in a way that makes the interest in them seem to be a race-based fetish. And as I only usually read the opening chapters in SYW, it's amazing how the author manages to create this impression when the characters have only just met.

I'm glad you mentioned this. My most recent story is a fantasy set in an Africa-esque land, where the heroine is black. I wanted the hero to notice and like her skin and hair, the same way he'd admire them if she was white, but when I go through the manuscript again I'll check that this doesn't come off as disproportionate or exotifying.

There's one part where he thinks she'd even be pretty if she wore white (white clothes have a certain not-good symbolic value), because that color would make her look darker and more vivid. Hopefully that isn't too bad.

ETA : Also no references to chocolate, coffee, mocha, caramel or raisins.
 
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EvolvingK

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I don't think it would hurt to acquaint oneself with some of the more obvious mistakes that crop up in novels. It's been pointed out elsewhere that it's not the responsibility of PoC to educate white people about racism, especially the more obvious things about it.

The fact that East Texas does not actually share a border with Mexico, and is hundreds of miles away from the Mexican/US border, for instance, is something that's pretty easy to research. It makes me wonder whether the people who are commissioning this writing project have all their ducks in a row.

I suppose it all depends on how much leeway they're giving you as a writer re the particulars of the story and setting too.

I apologize if I've given offense; that was definitely not my intention.

The client is someone I've worked with for most of a year now, and I'm generally given quite a lot of leeway with a story, so long as it matches up more or less with the description I'm given. I've seen what he publishes, and as far as I can tell, no major changes are made from what I write to what he publishes.

I believe that what happens on the other side of where I'm working is that he also commissions the descriptions from people who are good at that. I have a friend, for example, who can churn out romance plots as fast as I can ask for them, but she hates writing romance stories, so doesn't use the ideas. He buys the ideas, sends them to his writers, who write the stories, which he buys. I get rent money without having to write someone's college papers for them, which makes me happy. :D
 

Cathy C

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It's a bit of a strange business model, but so long as you're happy with the compensation, it's all good. :) I do wonder what his fans would think if they discovered the books were all ghostwritten. People don't mind ghostwritten non-fiction. Fiction is a trickier animal. But again, so long as everyone is cool, no problem.

The biggest thing with writing outside your own experience, whether race or sexual orientation or background, is to read/watch as much as you can. You have to pick some unusual (weirdest thing that ever happened to me stories from people) and some everyday, boring stuff. I recently wrote an article for a new release from an author who was writing about a kidnapping where the person was taken in Mexico. She wanted some of the characters to live there and some to be new to the area, so she spent a lot of time watching video blogs of residents and from U.S. ex-pats who had moved down there. YouTube is a great thing for research for the sights and sounds. The smells is harder but still possible by finding restaurants of the style of food from the area.

I remember getting some letters from a nephew who was working in the Peace Corps in Gabon in West Africa where part of his evening each day was spent sharpening his machete because the jungle literally grew so fast that he would have to cut vines in the morning just to get out of his house! I've desperately wanted to use that in a book, but haven't had the right setting for it. But the little day to day things are really important and can add to the experience for the reader.
 
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EvolvingK

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It's a bit of a strange business model, but so long as you're happy with the compensation, it's all good. :) I do wonder what his fans would think if they discovered the books were all ghostwritten. People don't mind ghostwritten non-fiction. Fiction is a trickier animal. But again, so long as everyone is cool, no problem.

The biggest thing with writing outside your own experience, whether race or sexual orientation or background, is to read/watch as much as you can. You have to pick some unusual (weirdest thing that ever happened to me stories from people) and some everyday, boring stuff. I recently wrote an article for a new release from an author who was writing about a kidnapping where the person was taken in Mexico. She wanted some of the characters to live there and some to be new to the area, so she spent a lot of time watching video blogs of residents and from U.S. ex-pats who had moved down there. YouTube is a great thing for research for the sights and sounds. The smells is harder but still possible by finding restaurants of the style of food from the area.

I remember getting some letters from a nephew who was working in the Peace Corps in Gabon in West Africa where part of his evening each day was spent sharpening his machete because the jungle literally grew so fast that he would have to cut vines in the morning just to get out of his house! I've desperately wanted to use that in a book, but haven't had the right setting for it. But the little day to day things are really important and can add to the experience for the reader.

it is a little wacky, that I grant. But it's so nice to find someone to freelance for that a.) pays on time and b.) pays fairly that I'm working with it.

And yeah, I've had a good laugh looking at the reviews on Amazon of some of the books, and the reviews are all "I love this author, how can she write so quickly, I buy everything she writes!!!" and I think to myself, oh, if only you knew.

He also offered to buy my actual fiction...I politely declined. No thanks, man, I don't want to be doing the ghostwriting thing the rest of my life if I don't have to.

Thank you for the tips; they are greatly appreciated.
 

Roxxsmom

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I'm glad you mentioned this. My most recent story is a fantasy set in an Africa-esque land, where the heroine is black. I wanted the hero to notice and like her skin and hair, the same way he'd admire them if she was white, but when I go through the manuscript again I'll check that this doesn't come off as disproportionate or exotifying.

There's one part where he thinks she'd even be pretty if she wore white (white clothes have a certain not-good symbolic value), because that color would make her look darker and more vivid. Hopefully that isn't too bad.

ETA : Also no references to chocolate, coffee, mocha, caramel or raisins.

I suppose it's possible that one is fetishizing white beauty when a pov goes on about the creamy whiteness of a female character's skin, her rosebud lips, or how elegantly pale she is or how her hair is like spun gold too. But of course, it's not happening in a vacuum. I'm not particularly offended when people who look like me are portrayed as an "exotic other" as seen through the eyes of someone who isn't used to white people, because it's been so darned rare for that to happen in literature.

People who look like me are usually portrayed as the default norm.

I actually chuckle when I read something in a pov where a white person is ugly by a person of color who is seeing them for the first time, because it turns stereotypes on their heads. But this would be offensive if it were reversed.

This gets into the whole mare's nest of how to show race through the pov of someone who really is racist, or at least ignorant, without making it too uncomfortable for many people to read.
 
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