What Professional Writers, Editors, and Agents Say About PA

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Any takers on betting when the POSITIVE PA PEOPLE will go a'commentin'?
 

circlexranch

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Here's another good one written in April of this year by a book critic in a major city.

Which brings me to another bitch about the stuff that’s sent for review from such outfits as PublishAmerica, iUniverse, xLibris, Trafford, etc.: I distinctly get the impression that these writers don’t read very much. If they did, they might recognize a clichè when they wrote one. (Hint: the good writers I know—and I know a number of them—read at least three times as much as they write. They read widely. They’re curious.)

Ouch . . .
 

robertmblevins

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It's not happening anymore, but back in 2007-08 I used to receive the occasional eMail from different PA writers who would ask my advice on how to extricate themselves from their PA contracts.

These eMails came to me because of threads concerning PA over at Kent Brewster's now-gone Speculations site. I won't discuss those threads here. (Besides, most of you reading this understand about the Speculations threads)

Don't know why I posted this, really. Just thought someone should know.

Robert Blevins
Managing Editor
Adventure Books of Seattle
The Escape Velocity Magazine
 

MMcQuown

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I wonder what PA would do if they actually got a salable book. Has it ever happened? Would anyone know?
 

M.R.J. Le Blanc

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They wouldn't know if they had a salable book. They don't read them, they just print and overcharge them.
 

JulieB

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Wasn't there the story a while back of an author who had convinced some local grocery stores to stock her book - and then the contract was canceled? Maybe I'm confusing that with something else.
 
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Publishing Credits



I read this quote...
But I am wondering, how do you know what is a real publishing credit?
Like, I have been published with Hustler, Tit-elation.com and I have had poetry published in many different anthologies, most of which I still have the names. Will these work on my resume?
 

Cyia

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Real publishing credit = paid manuscript from a reputable publisher or publication people have actually heard of. (Paid in money or prestige, as some of the smaller, prestigious, mags pay only token amounts, if at all, but being included in them is a big deal.)

The point is that the work has to be vetted. It has to be read, evaluated, edited, and held up against all of the other work in the same category and deemed better or more well suited by someone who knows what they're doing.
 

ChristineR

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I read this quote...
But I am wondering, how do you know what is a real publishing credit?
Like, I have been published with Hustler, Tit-elation.com and I have had poetry published in many different anthologies, most of which I still have the names. Will these work on my resume?

The mags would count for a lot if you were trying to sell to Playboy or Penthouse, far more than a PA book.
 

CaoPaux

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I've ported some general stuff to Overflow. Please keep this thread to examples of what industry professionals say about PA, and discussion of same. Thanks.
 

Gillhoughly

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ChristineR-- a single PAYING piece, short or long, counts more with the editor of a commercial publishing house than 20 titles placed with PA.

My future editor at the time called about my first novel and asked if I'd ever sold anything--it was her opening question!

Discounting a letter to the editor written in high school :D, I said I sold five pieces in the last two years to a small magazine in the Midwest. She was quite happy with that.

It told her that I produced stuff regularly, knew to send it to a paying market, and that another editor thought enough about my words to buy them. Maybe it was only a nickle a word, but it was good enough!

Sorry PA Lurkers--but getting paid one dollar for a whole novel just doesn't cut it. Commercial editors should be all about symbolism in the books, not checkbooks.
 
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Christine N.

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Coming in with a new quote, this one from Colleen Lindsay, an agent at Fine Print Literary: (regarding things that would be an instant reject in a query letter) " You told me that you were previously published by someone like PublishAmerica… and meant it. This is akin to telling me that you would consider yourself pr...eviously published if you had Xeroxed pages of your manuscript and stapled them together."

http://kathytemean.wordpress.com/2010/01/25/agent-colleen-lindsay-gives-query-letter-tips/
 

circlexranch

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I'm double-dipping this post on the NNEPAT because that is where the discussion originated. However, it belongs in here to be archived with the other agents opinions of PA.

Uber-agent Janet Reid had this to say about the PublishAmerica - Random House debacle in her blog.

I mention this because I don't want you to start ranting that I'm anti-POD, or anti-self publishing when I tell you that PublishAmerica's latest endeavor to separate writers from their hard-earned money infuriates me.

It preys on people's hopes and dreams, and uses their lack of knowledge specifically and intentionally to make them buy something the company knows is unlikely to achieve the results implied. (Implied of course is key. They don't actually tell you it works, they let you believe the implication.)

There's lots more, Ms. Reid didn't hold back . . .
 
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Working Spy

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Gullible does not begin to describe me. Perhaps egotiscal, maybe, given the right kind of flattery even - stupid. Whatever the case may be I've found out the hard way that PA is all that I have been reading about here at the writers water cooler. What I humble myself to ask al of you who have published - what do I do now? I want my book back. how do I go about that? Can I change the title (GACK %$^&+*&$#)? Change my name? HELP!!
 

Jill Karg

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Not a defender of PA but I am defender of some of their authors

I am not defending PA but I am an author that has been published by them (recently July 18th release). I would say that some of the comments above were very nasty.

Just for the record as a PA author, I do read. My favorite authors from the old school: Hemmingway, Poe, Shakespeare and from the new school: Clive Cussler, John Gardner, Sebastian Faulk to name a few. I have always and will always have a thirst for knowledge. I am educated (bachelor degree in MIS) and have been a technical writer. My book might be published by a not so nice publisher but it doesn't mean the quality is sub-average or poor.

I will not be using PA for the second book in my series, and I will be searching out an agent. I feel the agents that snub their noses at those that have been published even by PA are not worth having. I want someone that looks at the work in front of them, the synopsis and sample chapters and decides then if the work and author is good enough to support.

I truly believe that you do attract more bees with honey instead of vinegar. And yes that is a cliché. And cliché is a French term that is overused also.

My grandmother had a thousand of them. My all time favorite is “Don’t judge someone unless you are willing to walk in their shoes. or Don't judge a book by it's cover.”

I am published author and I am proud of that fact. I will have success even if it is with the second book of the series of seven. Yes, I said seven. All these books are more than 500 pages long with many plots lines, many characters and dialogue that can stand the test of reading it out loud.

I don’t pretend to know what these agents were looking at to say such harsh comments but I do know it wasn’t my work.
:Soapbox:

Ok done.
 

Cyia

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Hi Jill.

I'm sorry you think the comments are harsh, but that's the reality of writing and publishing. It's a harsh business, and everyone doesn't get to play along. Writing a book is only one step of it, finding a legit agent or publisher or both is another. And to do that, you have to do your due diligence.

Using PA implies you have access to the internet, since it's an on-line submission process. If you have the internet, you have the ability to research, and it takes less than twenty minutes to check PA (or any other publisher) out.

I can only speak to my own experience, but I was practically on-line illiterate when I started a serious attempt at getting published. I made serious mistakes because I didn't know any different (at the time, my on-line capabilities were limited to "get on-line, send e-mail, be quick") but once I was able to start Googling people and places, it wasn't difficult to see who was legit and who wasn't. (Thankfully I'd found P&E straight off) I think I found AW on like my 3rd search, while checking on an agent, and I
double checked their information, found enough other sources to corroborate it , and moved on. There's so much information out there now on PA and its practices that anyone should be able to do the same.

Bookstores frown on PA, and avoid their authors, because they know from experience what to expect. They're used to stone walls, and the (usually 5%) lousy discounts. They're used to sub-standard merchandise. They're used to getting stuck with books that won't sell. And they're used to wide-eyed authors who've been instilled with the sense of entitlement that comes with being told they're "just like" Stephen King and Nora Roberts when they're not. Only Stephen King and Nora Roberts are like Stephen King and Nora Roberts, no matter how successful another writer may or may not become.

The agents who say PA isn't something to be bragged about do so because they know, if you're still considering a PA book "published", you haven't done your due diligence. You haven't done the basics, and that means you probably haven't put any more time or effort into researching them, either.

It would be like showing up for a job interview and asking the person doing the interview how to do the job you want. You should already know, and it's not their fault you don't.

This is going to sound nasty, but -- you are NOT a published author, not if you're counting PA as your publishing credit. You ARE an author; you are not published. It counts no more or less than if you'd gone to Kinko's printed your book out, and had it bound.

I've had things "published" on fanfiction.net, and comparatively, it's the same tier of credit as PA. The only difference is, I know people have read what I wrote and they didn't have to pay a ridiculous amount of money to do it. (And I've never been asked to purchase copies.)
 
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Marian Perera

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My book might be published by a not so nice publisher but it doesn't mean the quality is sub-average or poor.

If you needed to fill a job opening and someone showed up saying, "My diploma is from an internet university which hands them out to everyone who sends a check but it doesn't mean I'm a bad worker", what would you think?

Maybe it's true. Maybe that person is the most intelligent and most qualified person to apply for the job. But the fact that he went to a diploma mill (and then brought it up at all, rather than keeping quiet about it) is a huge warning sign. Most employers aren't going to look favorably on that.

I will not be using PA for the second book in my series, and I will be searching out an agent. I feel the agents that snub their noses at those that have been published even by PA are not worth having. I want someone that looks at the work in front of them, the synopsis and sample chapters and decides then if the work and author is good enough to support.
Reputable agents tend to be swamped with queries on top of selling manuscripts and negotiating rights for their current clients. As a result, most of them only have the time to look at queries (rather than sample chapters, synopsis, etc). If the query is poorly written they're likely to take a pass.

If the query mentions the writer's PA-printed books as publication credits, that tells the agent that the writer is unaware of what's expected or what's done in the publishing industry. It's not a good idea to apply for a job and then show that you're not aware of what the job expectations are.

The agents are not snubbing their noses at you. Don't take it personally or you'll end up being even more disappointed.

My grandmother had a thousand of them. My all time favorite is “Don’t judge someone unless you are willing to walk in their shoes. or Don't judge a book by it's cover.”
If books weren't judged by their covers, publishers wouldn't bother spending money on cover art.

I am published author and I am proud of that fact.


Be as proud as you like. Just don't expect the publishing industry to recognize your PA book as a publishing credit, because it's not.
 
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Momento Mori

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Jill Karg:
I would say that some of the comments above were very nasty.

I understand why you'd find some of the comments here quite difficult to read, but everything said here is true.

Jill Karg:
Just for the record as a PA author, I do read. My favorite authors from the old school: Hemmingway, Poe, Shakespeare and from the new school: Clive Cussler, John Gardner, Sebastian Faulk to name a few. I have always and will always have a thirst for knowledge. I am educated (bachelor degree in MIS) and have been a technical writer. My book might be published by a not so nice publisher but it doesn't mean the quality is sub-average or poor.

The problem though is that you've been published by a vanity publisher and the vast majority of other PA authors are not regular readers (many say as much in the PA discussion boards) and the books they have released through PA are not very well written.

That's what is so insidious about PA - they publish anything regardless of quality. In esence, they are publishing slush. As a result, while your book might be great (and there are books with PA that could easily have found a commercial publisher had the author done their research in advance) it will never, ever get the audience it deserves and it will be tainted by its association with a publisher that does not care about quality.

Jill Karg:
I will not be using PA for the second book in my series, and I will be searching out an agent.

Unless your second book in the series works as a stand alone, you may find it difficult to get an agent. It's very difficult to find an agent for a book or series where first publishing rights have been exhausted (which is what happens when you go with PA) unless you've managed to get significant sales for that first book. You may be better off abandoning the series completely and working on something completely different.

Jill Karg:
I feel the agents that snub their noses at those that have been published even by PA are not worth having.

You're misinterpreting what the agents are saying. Agents do not regard PA as a publishing credit - therefore if you list your PA book in a query letter as being an example of your having been commercially published, they will view you as an amateur (ditto if you query a novel that's already been published by PA) and your query is more likely to be set to one side.

As regards whether the agent is worth having - all of the agents quoted on this thread are people worth having on the basis that they represent some best selling authors and can (and have) negotiated good deals for their clients.

You might not like that attitude, but that's the reality you face given the PA situation. The good news is that you are not alone and there are plenty of people in this Forum who have been with PA and who have gone on to get agents and commercial publishing deals.

Jill Karg:
I truly believe that you do attract more bees with honey instead of vinegar. And yes that is a cliché. And cliché is a French term that is overused also.

That's not a great analogy. Again, not liking the way the message is being presented doesn't make the message any less true.

Jill Karg:
My all time favorite is “Don’t judge someone unless you are willing to walk in their shoes. or Don't judge a book by it's cover.”

Great sayings. Shame they don't apply in this case.

PA is known as a vanity publisher. Therefore its authors are judged to be vanity published. The only way you can mitigate that is through your sales, which you will never get with PA.

Jill Karg:
I am published author and I am proud of that fact.

Yes, you are published but you have been badly published by a vanity outfit.

Jill Karg:
I will have success even if it is with the second book of the series of seven. Yes, I said seven. All these books are more than 500 pages long with many plots lines, many characters and dialogue that can stand the test of reading it out loud.

I hope that you do have success, but you won't with PA.

Jill Karg:
I don’t pretend to know what these agents were looking at to say such harsh comments but I do know it wasn’t my work.

Those agents were looking at work produced by your fellow PA authors. Your work may well be great, but the fact that so much from PA isn't, will taint it.

For that reason, you're better off not mentioning PA at all when querying an agent and let your work stand or fall on its own merits.

MM
 

Chris P

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Hi Jill. I too am a PA author, and I understand what you are saying. In effect, you are walking in my shoes, three years after I walked in the shoes of thousands of other PA authors. I have chosen not to use PA again for specific reasons.

I've said this before and I still believe it: If you can find a way to make PA's approach to publishing fulfill your needs as a writer, then go for it! However, there are four things that PA does that makes it more difficult for me to meet my goals: 1) their prices, 2) their marketing approach (99% of efforts are to the authors and not readers or bookstores, poor discount, no/shoddy return policy, etc), 3) their antics (deleting rather than addressing legitimate concerns of authors on their message board, sending threatening letters to their authors) and 4) no publication standards (they'll publish anything that doesn't open themselves to a liability--and even then they sometimes do).

As to the nastiness, I've made a choice to avoid a certain brand of PA-bashing that is sometimes seen on this board, sometimes dishearteningly so by people I respect. But, that's a choice I have made for myself and the image I wish to present on this board. I have no desire to get onto anyone else for how they wish to present themselves.

I discuss my experiences with PA, and until they stopped sending me email discount offers I presented these offers, unvarnished but with my impressions of them, on this board in various threads. My own experience is my experience, and these offers are what PA has been saying about itself. It's not necessary to say much else, in my opinion.

PS: I wonder if a mod should split this discussion into a new thread? The OP gave specific guidance on the content of this thread.