Do you have a right to privacy (and to call Obama a "nigger?")

nighttimer

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There is the belief that racism has become passe and we're all too hip to waste time hating someone based on something as silly as their skin color.

Then America messed around and elected a Black guy as President, not once but twice.

That is when young White kids went to Twitter and Facebook to show how proud they were of their red necks.

"Since when did we allow monkeys to be President?"

"If Obama wins, I'm gonna buy a coon hound and hunt the nigger down"

"All you blackies only want Obama bec he is black. Bet you know nothing about him. Learn some shit. Then decide who you want. Not by color."

#MyPresidentIsBlack..#FuckMyLife

"Obama's a nigger. That's why he shouldn't live in the WHITE house."

'Romney's campaign filed a lawsuit today claiming the election was "nigger rigged" '

"If I were invited to the White House I'd go to spit in the presdent's face. NIGGER."

"We were doin just fine with white presidents...leave it to a nigger to mess stuff up"

"Good news niggers. Four more years of living. Off the white man"

"I hope the White House burns down and Obama and his family are in there...and the whole democratic party for that matter
"
These tweets and posts were compiled on a Tumbir page called Hellothereracists. The creator of the page went further than simply reproducing the racist messages. He also included their names, pictures, towns and even the high schools and occupations as well.

This has created a tug-of-war between two core principles. The right of citizens to express themselves even in the most hateful terms against their expectation of privacy. A girl in Methuen, Massachusetts might not really gob in President Obama's face if she should meet him in the White House, but as bigoted and ignorant as she may be, she is not a public figure.

Does it make anyone less racist if they are outed on the Internet for tweeting something racist?

In this week’s bout of Internet shaming, a Tumblr called Hello There, Racists! is collecting the sentiments of bigoted Obama haters. Many are teenagers, and their tweets and Facebook posts appear with their pictures and the names of the cities they live in and the schools they go to. Scrolling through this collection, I’m so grossed out by the tweets that it’s hard to remember why I think this Tumblr is such a bad idea. OK, right: As my colleague Laura Anderson reminded me in an email thread, “I don’t think strangers should be posting minors’ contact information on the Internet, period.” Internet vigilante-ism at the expense of kids is just a terrible idea, given their youth and the evidence that their brains aren’t fully developed, especially in the impulse-control regions.

I also doubt the public shaming will push these kids to reconsider their views—more like give them more reason for indignation. If you come under attack for something you thought you said privately, however wrong you were about that, wouldn’t you feel anger more than remorse?
I'm not a big believer in the purifying effect of public shaming, but I'm even less so when you're throwing the dumb things kids say back in their faces. Many adults have learned to their sorrow how that post bitching about the boss and his stank breath ended up on their next performance review. Prospective employers and college admission boards might not look favorably on selecting someone who has publicly called the president a nigger or they hope he and his family die in a fire.

Racism isn't cool. Most of us already reached that conclusion without having our noses rubbed in vulgar descriptors of Black people. Your mama's assertion of the threat level posed by sticks and stones compared to stupid words is still correct. Maybe if left to their own devices some of these dumb kids will eventually smarten up.

From the perspective of someone who has no patience for racism, causing a little embarrassment to these kids at a point in their intellectual development they might still understand how wrong they are, isn't entirely all bad.

As someone who neither believes in censorship or heavy-handed political correctness, the black and white response by the Hello there, Racists creator is in its own way just as brash and misguided as the crude bigotry of those he holds up to ridicule.
 

Zoombie

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There are certain things that are on the internet that, I believe, are somewhat private.

For example, all the freaky porn-sights I belong too!

There are some things that are NOT private.

For example, the website designed to tell as many people as possible what you are currently thinking. Like Twitter or Facebook.

I think learning that you need to police your brain on twitter just as much as you should police it in real life - if not more so, as there's records and easily searched information on that kind of place - is an important thing. If it takes something like this to teach you that...well, shit, mistakes have consequences.

So, basically...

If you want to call the Prez the N-word, do it on Stormfront from a fake I.P address, or else people will call you on it.

Just like how I'm not going to talk about my freaky porn sights on a public forum that links directly to a large number of my public social media venues and my publisher's webpage.

...wait...
 

Anna L.

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Aren't the concepts of "social media" and "privacy" kind of opposites? If you don't want people to know you're a racist, don't yell it in public...
 

LAgrunion

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Not sympathetic to these kids who are getting outed. You need to own up to what you say. The earlier you learn this lesson, the better.

However, it would bug me if only certain people with certain views get outed. It should be everyone.

I think transparency is good for society.

IMO, the historical effect of privacy is to promote hypocrisy.

If it were up to me, I'd have zero privacy in society. Everything would be disclosed: Your finances, medical history, school grades, criminal records, buying habits, internet sites visited, etc. Everything. Even thoughts. A world where it's impossible to lie.

I'm tired of a world populated with phonies who people think are nice when they're not.
 

crunchyblanket

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Freedom of speech comes with consequences, including others exercising their freedom of speech to call you a racist piece of shit.

As for outing them? Hm. Well, Facebook isn't exactly a private place. If you want to espouse your racist beliefs in private, lock down your security settings. Otherwise, it's a bit like walking into a crowded shopping centre, screaming out "THE PRESIDENT IS A [insert racial epithet here]" and getting pissed when people punch you in the neck for it.

Facebook is a public platform. You want privacy, post anonymously. When you put your name to something and put it out there in the public domain....consequences, people.
 

nighttimer

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Aren't the concepts of "social media" and "privacy" kind of opposites? If you don't want people to know you're a racist, don't yell it in public...

What if you don't care if people know you're a racist? You may even be proud you are. Maybe you're a racist because all of your peers are racists too.

And maybe you're just a teenager expressing anti-social thoughts on Twitter and Facebook because people are paying attention to you when you do. "Oh, there's Johnny being racist again. Isn't that just awful?"

Not sympathetic to these kids who are getting outed. You need to own up to what you say. The earlier you learn this lesson, the better.

However, it would bug me if only certain people with certain views get outed. It should be everyone.

I think transparency is good for society.

IMO, the historical effect of privacy is to promote hypocrisy.

If it were up to me, I'd have zero privacy in society. Everything would be disclosed: Your finances, medical history, school grades, criminal records, buying habits, internet sites visited, etc. Everything. Even thoughts. A world where it's impossible to lie.

I'm tired of a world populated with phonies who people think are nice when they're not.

Your world sounds kind of terrifying, LAgrunion.

Absolute truthfulness with zero tolerance for falsehood would lead to insurrection, zero trust in individuals and institutions, and the crumbling of the social compact.

People say they want the truth, but they also cherish the comfort of their illusions, misconceptions and blind faith. If everyone could see what the man behind the curtain was really up to do, what we laughingly call "civilization" would come crashing down in ruins.

Who decides which views should be dragged kicking and screaming into the light of day and which ones we will leave alone? How is your "transparency" enhanced by knowing what porn sites Zoombie has a membership for?


Freedom of speech comes with consequences, including others exercising their freedom of speech to call you a racist piece of shit.

As for outing them? Hm. Well, Facebook isn't exactly a private place. If you want to espouse your racist beliefs in private, lock down your security settings. Otherwise, it's a bit like walking into a crowded shopping centre, screaming out "THE PRESIDENT IS A [insert racial epithet here]" and getting pissed when people punch you in the neck for it.

Facebook is a public platform. You want privacy, post anonymously. When you put your name to something and put it out there in the public domain....consequences, people.

I don't think I'm making my right to privacy argument that well. Let me try again.

We don’t allow kids to get a driver’s license or vote until they turn 18. They can’t drink (legally) before 21. They can’t sign certain legal documents or join the military things until their voices deepen and their balls drop. There are many reasons why kids can’t do a lot of things, but the best reason is they aren’t mature enough to be held responsible.

It’s a bad idea to hold a kid's feet to the fire for every stupid things they say and do when they are teenagers. George Zimmerman’s lawyers want to see records of Trayvon Martin’s Tweets. Set aside how ghoulish it is to go rifling through the spontaneous thoughts of a dead kid and ask why the attorneys want that access. They are looking for expressions by Martin of anger, violent tendencies and dangerous beliefs. Just enough smoke to cast doubt in a juror's mind that Martin might have been a criminal in waiting and Zimmerman was right in blowing out his flame.

The spontaneous reactions of kids being dickish in a Facebook post should not include their names and faces, what school they attend or jobs they work. Calling the president a "coon" and a "nigger" and hoping he and his family die in a fire in the White House is vile stuff. In some cases may justify a Secret Service inquiry.

Publicly humiliating Johnny and Sally in a modern day version of the pillory and stocks may knock the hate out of them as others are encouraged to throw rotten vegetables at them in cyberspace. Or it may compel them to double down instead.

We can grow up and out of our misguided beliefs. Instead of scrawling them in a secret diary some of our uglier, anti-social thoughts get expressed in social media. That is an opportunity to show a young, impressionable mind where they got it wrong. Scorn and hatred returned to them may only serve to validate their expressions of ignorance.
 

regdog

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People have the right to be racists and to publicly say racist things. If they decide to use a social media outlet to voice their opinions they cannot claim outrage and being "outed" as a racist.

If a person, especially a minor, has not made their photo and address public, I do not like some person deciding it is their right to give that information out on the internet. That is dangerous and an invasion of privacy.

LAgrunion, I disagree that all aspects of a person's life should be public. Medical records, finances, etc. People have the right to their privacy, and they do have the right to lie.
 

crunchyblanket

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It’s a bad idea to hold a kid's feet to the fire for every stupid things they say and do when they are teenagers
I completely agree. The transgressions we commit as youngsters don't necessarily reflect on the people we'll become as adults. And you're right; we shouldn't use those transgressions as a stick to beat them with into infinity.

However. The flip side is that kids can't grow up thinking they can say whatever the hell they like without experiencing any comeback, and I'm leery of allowing the internet to become that kind of place. I'm not saying we should sling mud at them, or react with scorn; as you rightly point out, that's actually more likely to solidify their hateful beliefs. But to make them own their words? That's no bad thing, in my opinion. There's a certain amount of good "outing" a person can do - for one, they are exposed to more than just their own circle of cheerleaders and a scattering of internet critics. There's a better chance for education and guidance when we know exactly who we're dealing with. That's not to say there's no negative side to it, though.

It's a hard one to get right, I think. I personally believe everyone should own their words, and that greater responsibility for the things we say may well lead to people actually engaging their brains before opening their mouths (or bashing at their keyboards.) The worry is that we'll allow it to go too far.

ETA: one thought, though. Would the people being 'outed' be quite as upset if they were 'outed' in a positive light? For example, by like-minded people viewing them as a "mouthpiece for a movement?" Maybe they would, but it's interesting.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Not sympathetic to these kids who are getting outed. You need to own up to what you say. The earlier you learn this lesson, the better.

However, it would bug me if only certain people with certain views get outed. It should be everyone.

I think transparency is good for society.

IMO, the historical effect of privacy is to promote hypocrisy.

If it were up to me, I'd have zero privacy in society. Everything would be disclosed: Your finances, medical history, school grades, criminal records, buying habits, internet sites visited, etc. Everything. Even thoughts. A world where it's impossible to lie.

I'm tired of a world populated with phonies who people think are nice when they're not.

I'm no fan of dishonesty, but removing all levels of privacy also removes all levels of intimacy. If everything one says is broadcast all over the world it won't lead to more honesty, it will lead to less introspection

There are few greater things in life than having people one is close to who one can reveal ones ideas to and who will support what is good in them and challenge what is bad. If there were no one and no way to talk things out privately then no one would ever produce a thought through idea.

We all make a lot of mistakes, think a lot of damn fool thoughts, and come to a lot of silly conclusions that we need help removing and replacing. That's one of the things that good, thoughtful friends and loved ones do.

Without the ability to have those kinds of conversations no one will ever come to better ideas. They'll say the first foolish thing that comes into their heads in a public environment and be stuck with those statements forever. They'll either have to defend them or live in shame, but they won't get better ideas or come to see their own mistakes as correctable.
 

Don

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You own your words. I don't see where the right to privacy enters into this at all. These are public statements made in public forums.

Personally, I'm a big fan of bigots of all stripes who self-identify. It makes it much easier to shun them. Frex, if the local hardware store is run by a bigot (or a snob), I'd much rather know sooner than later. That way I can spend my money elsewhere rather than finance his platform for hatred.

As for kids, this is a lesson they best learn early. If one can't learn from example, experience is an even better teacher.
 

Ambrosia

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"If Obama wins, I'm gonna buy a coon hound and hunt the nigger down"

That is the one that needs to alert the Secret Service to a possible threat on the President's life. The other comments are just stupid bluster. Underage kids do go out and do heinous things, including murder. Anyone watching the news lately will know this truth. Pump enough hate into their minds and you have a bomb waiting for an opportunity to go off.

I defend their right to sling epithets even when I find such slurs abhorrent, but the threats to another's life is something totally different. And that teen needs a visit from the authorities before he or she finds a path to act out on that hatred. I don't think they should spend time behind bars for it, unless they actually have a plan. But a little shock therapy may just be the thing to stop them before it is too late to divert them from acting out.

There is a lot to be said for peer pressure. I disagree with their pictures being posted, however. There are a lot of nuts in the world. Just because these kids were racist idiots does not mean they should be put in danger from someone who has a screw loose who may hunt them for their beliefs. That isn't right and I worry about the implications of "outing" them.

LAgrunion, I couldn't live in a world like you describe. I am a very private person and I sure as heck don't want to know what everyone else is thinking around me, either. That would be hell. And everyone having access to medical records and financial records would mean people would not get hired by companies who would look at problems as a reason not to "take a risk" on that person, even though the person is a good worker. Insurance companies already won't insure people with certain health issues. Etc.. No, it doesn't sound like a utopia to me at all.
 

Chrissy

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Publicly humiliating Johnny and Sally in a modern day version of the pillory and stocks may knock the hate out of them as others are encouraged to throw rotten vegetables at them in cyberspace. Or it may compel them to double down instead.

We can grow up and out of our misguided beliefs. Instead of scrawling them in a secret diary some of our uglier, anti-social thoughts get expressed in social media. That is an opportunity to show a young, impressionable mind where they got it wrong. Scorn and hatred returned to them may only serve to validate their expressions of ignorance.
Quite so.

I don't think the Tumbler thing will be effective.

If we're really trying to change minds and hearts, this isn't the way to go, IMO. What I think would work better are some gently and intelligently expressed sentiments regarding racism... statements that don't immediately offend and cause defensiveness, but rather percolate on the back burner of these immature minds and might, someday, be recalled and internalized.

What Don said about experience being the best teacher is true... but I'm not sure these kids give a good goddamn at this point, and if it "comes back to bite them in the ass" later, it could merely have the effect that nighttimer describes above.
 

crunchyblanket

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What Don said about experience being the best teacher is true... but I'm not sure these kids give a good goddamn at this point, and if it "comes back to bite them in the ass" later, it could merely have the effect that nighttimer describes above.

If they don't give a good goddamn now, chances are good they never will. In that case, education is a lost cause, but if we can at least make them take responsibility for the things they say and recognise that they are not and will not be immune to the consequences, that's as good as we're going to get.
 

Chrissy

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If they don't give a good goddamn now, chances are good they never will. In that case, education is a lost cause, but if we can at least make them take responsibility for the things they say and recognise that they are not and will not be immune to the consequences, that's as good as we're going to get.
If we were talking about adults, I might agree. But, teenagers? Their brains are like, deformed. :D

But even so, I believe people can change, under the proper circumstances. What those circumstances would be is debatable. Some believe that pain is the best way. Some, like me, believe love and compassion is the best way.

To quote one of my favorite Bible verses: "The goodness of God leads men to repentence."
 

Komnena

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Yes. There is a right to privacy and the right to hold distasteful beliefs. There is no right to make threats. And if you start making your beliefs public others who find these beliefs distasteful have the right to object to them publicly. That is what living in a free society is about.
 

crunchyblanket

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If we were talking about adults, I might agree. But, teenagers? Their brains are like, deformed. :D

But even so, I believe people can change, under the proper circumstances. What those circumstances would be is debatable. Some believe that pain is the best way. Some, like me, believe love and compassion is the best way.

To quote one of my favorite Bible verses: "The goodness of God leads men to repentence."

I believe in love and compassion and proper, fact-based education. But I also believe that there are some people that won't ever change, whether you give them all the love and education in the world or beat them til they bleed or anything inbetween. In those cases, the best we can do is tell them how it works so they're not too shocked when someone punches them in the neck because they called him a pikey. Even though they probably deserve that punch in the neck. See, that's compassion right there ;)
 

Chrissy

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I believe in love and compassion and proper, fact-based education. But I also believe that there are some people that won't ever change, whether you give them all the love and education in the world or beat them til they bleed or anything inbetween. In those cases, the best we can do is tell them how it works so they're not too shocked when someone punches them in the neck because they called him a pikey. Even though they probably deserve that punch in the neck. See, that's compassion right there ;)
:D Quite!
 

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Not sympathetic to these kids who are getting outed. You need to own up to what you say. The earlier you learn this lesson, the better.

However, it would bug me if only certain people with certain views get outed. It should be everyone.

I think transparency is good for society.

IMO, the historical effect of privacy is to promote hypocrisy.

If it were up to me, I'd have zero privacy in society. Everything would be disclosed: Your finances, medical history, school grades, criminal records, buying habits, internet sites visited, etc. Everything. Even thoughts. A world where it's impossible to lie.

I'm tired of a world populated with phonies who people think are nice when they're not.


What is your REAL name? (Not LAgrunion, right?)

What is your street addresss?

What is your Social Secuity Number?

What is your mother's maiden name?

Do you have any veneral diseases?

What is your sexual orientation?

How big is your penis?

Is your bathroom clean?

Do you always floss your teeth?




What??





None of my business???



.
 

missesdash

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This isn't even about calling Obama nigger to me. It's about teaching all of these dumbasses that there is no such thing as privacy on the Internet. The sooner they learn, the better. Posting something on twitter means standing in front of an audience the size of the world's population and yelling it into a microphone.

The lesson they should learn from this is "don't attach my name, face and school to the shitty things I say." They outted themselves when they posted the tweets.
 

backslashbaby

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I think the websites should also let the kids have a rebuttal, so to speak. So what goes down on the internet record can include an apology or what have you. If the apology is later, when the kid is in his 20's, so be it; include that back in the archive.

I don't think any private FB postings should be included, either. Even if a kid has 500 friends, if he's set it to private, I'd consider that verboten to the internet at large to use on any other site.
 

missesdash

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Not sympathetic to these kids who are getting outed. You need to own up to what you say. The earlier you learn this lesson, the better.

However, it would bug me if only certain people with certain views get outed. It should be everyone.

I think transparency is good for society.

IMO, the historical effect of privacy is to promote hypocrisy.

If it were up to me, I'd have zero privacy in society. Everything would be disclosed: Your finances, medical history, school grades, criminal records, buying habits, internet sites visited, etc. Everything. Even thoughts. A world where it's impossible to lie.

I'm tired of a world populated with phonies who people think are nice when they're not.

The real solution to this is to stop caring. Hypocrisy isn't some world ill. It's not *actually* a problem when someone thinks one way and acts another. It doesn't affect anyone else.
 

missesdash

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I think the websites should also let the kids have a rebuttal, so to speak. So what goes down on the internet record can include an apology or what have you. If the apology is later, when the kid is in his 20's, so be it; include that back in the archive.

I don't think any private FB postings should be included, either. Even if a kid has 500 friends, if he's set it to private, I'd consider that verboten to the internet at large to use on any other site.

Yeah but when else can people tell something to FIVE HUNDRED other people and then act surprised when someone else finds out?

It's really really absurd when you think about it.
 

leahzero

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I'm surprised at these responses. This seems very similar to the Stop the Goodreads Bullies debacle. Posting hateful, ignorant shit on the internet is not okay; having your personal information attached to it in a manner that is clearly meant to shame, intimidate, and silence is also not okay.

I wonder if the sentiment in this thread favors the vigilantes because the people in question are expressing racism. I absolutely despise these racist twerps and everything they've said, but I don't condone internet campaigns to shame, intimidate, and silence people for their free expression.

We're okay with it now because that free expression is expressing disgusting racist drivel. But what if these were gay marriage supporters, and an anti-gay group was doing the same to them? What if they were women's rights supporters, and a misogynist group was doing the same to them? Different story, eh?

The right to privacy either applies all the time (with exceptions for the safety of others), or it never applies. We can't just selectively apply it to people whose views we agree with, then rescind it when we come across racist jerks whose views we don't.
 

bethany

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Wow. I don't know. I'll say as a high school teacher in a small mostly white community, that I used to teach Night (holocaust memoir) when I knew that there were kkk members in the classroom. Some of them got the parallels and the fact that prejudice and hatred is evil.

Most of that crap is parroted from somewhere. Parents. Friends. Then they try to make it more shocking. Either they enjoy the looks of shock, or they are in such insulated little communities that they think everyone they come in contact with thinks that way.

I'm all for shocking them out of that opinion. But I don't know if this is effective, and anything that shows their pictures and addresses online seems very problematic.

For some of these kids, just getting out of their bubble and realizing other people don't feel they way they do may be enough. Some of them may be ignorant racists for the rest of their lives.

On a personal level, I'm so completely disgusted by these comments. So disgusted. My kids go to a racially diverse montessori school. They were preschool and kindergarten the first time Obama won. Teachers and staff (also racially diverse wonderful group of educators) were crying in the hallways on the day of Obama's inauguration. I'm so glad my kids were part of that historic moment from a celebration standpoint.

I don't talk politics (or religion) with high school kids. But I heard lots of muttering. Anyone who thinks racism is gone needs to visit a few high schools.