The God thread

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Puddle Jumper said:
Pat, I just noticed your title. Who is George Herbert?
An Anglican clergyman and one of the finest poets ever, right after John Donne.

These are some of my favorite Herbert poems:

The Collar

Jordan I

Prayer I

These are written by someone who, I think, was truly spiritual and Christian and human, in all the best senses.
 

Puddle Jumper

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As I'm in CT, it's after midnight here. No, it's not an excuse, but, it would take a considerable amount of time to look up all the posts you've made and copy/paste them.
Just to help you out a little, if you click to look at my profile there is a link you can click to look at all my posts in order of most recent to oldest. I thought it might save you time than trying to go into long threads looking for my posts. I really want to know where you think I told someone they were going to hell since you claim I have and I know I never have.
 

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I had no further interest in extending this thread, but this is on-line today, from Newsweek, and seems particularly pertinent to this discussion, particularly the following excerpt:

However dominant in terms of numbers, Christianity is only a thread in the American tapestry—it is not the whole tapestry. The God who is spoken of and called on and prayed to in the public sphere is an essential character in the American drama, but He is not specifically God the Father or the God of Abraham. The right's contention that we are a "Christian nation" that has fallen from pure origins and can achieve redemption by some kind of return to Christian values is based on wishful thinking, not convincing historical argument. Writing to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, in 1790, George Washington assured his Jewish countrymen that the American government "gives to bigotry no sanction." In a treaty with the Muslim nation of Tripoli initiated by Washington, completed by John Adams, and ratified by the Senate in 1797, we declared "the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. ... " The Founders also knew the nation would grow ever more diverse; in Virginia, Thomas Jefferson's bill for religious freedom was "meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination." And thank God—or, if you choose, thank the Founders—that it did indeed.

(the entire article:) http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12115700/site/newsweek/page/1/
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

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Puddle Jumper said:
For the record, I've never given any negative rep points as bad as the one I had asked to be removed and I was ridiculed for asking it be removed. Furthermore, I wouldn't give negative rep points for simply disagreeing with me. I gave them to people taking cheap shots against me that I wasn't going to debate.
Fiddlesticks, PJ. The negative rep point you gave me was precisely in response to my having given you a negative rep point. Somehow, I don't think tit-for-tat is what the reputation points system was created for.

I'm not about to hit up a supermod to have that point removed--it's just a rep point, who cares?--but I'm also not about to let your claim to having been the soul of rationality in the rep points arena slip by unchallenged.
 

reph

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NicoleJLeBoeuf said:
Fiddlesticks, PJ. The negative rep point you gave me....
Nicole, you got one too? I'm not asking the mods to review mine. It was neutralized by a compensatory positive point from another member. The positive points resulting from numerous posts on the current religion threads give me a net gain anyway. But maybe there is a pattern here, the kind MacAllister asked us to watch for.
 

blacbird

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tiny terror said:
Wow, how childish.

Nah. At least more clever than most of the preceding incomprehensible, self-contradictory verbiage from the same source.

Do the Christian thing: If you get a negative point, like I did, return a positive one. Like I did.

caw.
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

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Gee, PJ, are you "trying to impress [us] with your immaturity?"

reph: Yes, I did, and I rather assumed that it was part of a pattern. It's rare to find myself an exception in cases like this.
 

Jean Marie

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reph said:
Nicole, you got one too? I'm not asking the mods to review mine. It was neutralized by a compensatory positive point from another member. The positive points resulting from numerous posts on the current religion threads give me a net gain anyway. But maybe there is a pattern here, the kind MacAllister asked us to watch for.
I've gotten several, along the way. Only asked for a review on one because it included another member's name, which is ridiculous. Of course, this whole thing is ridiculous.

And I agree w/ you, reph, about the pattern, that is. I too have received + posts (thank you!) which has evened things out. However, that's not what the system is for.

The wine and cheese? Tiny Terror's got a point and so does blacbird
smile.gif
 

ColoradoGuy

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For myself, I am sorry for the squabbles and whatever part I played in them. Some threads get started as a challenge, others as a musing aloud; I was just genuinely curious about what folks thought about God, and why they did so.
And I have learned interesting things, for which I thank all of the posters.
 

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Medievalist said:
An Anglican clergyman and one of the finest poets ever, right after John Donne.

These are some of my favorite Herbert poems:

The Collar

Jordan I

Prayer I

These are written by someone who, I think, was truly spiritual and Christian and human, in all the best senses.

And some people think he was even a finer poet than John Donne ;) .

Thanks for the links, Medievalist! When I get time I'm going to post some of my favorites, too.
 

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kdnxdr

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Who I know God to be and what I believe about Him:

First, that He is the Creator and there is no Creator other than Him. He is a tritarian Being who exists in three persons, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. I personally believe that the Holy Spirit is the feminine Being of God.

He has existed as Three Persons for forever. The Tripartate Being of God created man and man's universe, man being male and female.

All of creation is held together by the Spirit of God. When He will remove His Spirit, everything within the universe of man will come undone.

God gifted His created beings, angels and humans, with a free-will. God is love and desires to be loved. Free-will can only be free-will when exercised in love by a free-will choice of obedience.

The scriptures teach : "If you (angels/humans) love Me (God in Tripartate Being), obey Me."

God is omniscience prepared a program of redemption for (humans) to return to a love/obedience relationship with God, knowing that through free-will, humans would choose to reject God. Rejection is always an option. However, the scriptures teach that "the flesh wars against the spirit".

Man is a tripartate being composed of body, soul (mind/will/emmotions) and spirit. The flesh dominates and controls man in his fallen nature. As the spirit is awakened (brought to life throught the second birth) by the infilling of the spirit of God, man is restored to a living, vital relationship with The Living God. A born again human then begins a life of living, moving and having his/her being IN Christ.

According to my beliefs, there is never a seperation of the tritarian Being of the Godhead.

God's work is the restoration of the relationship between Him and humankind. He is a jealous God.
 
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Chrissy

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One of my basic problems with standard Christian doctrine, particularly the severe Protestant varieties that trace their lineage back to Calvin, is its emphasis on the fallen nature of humankind, original sin and all that. This is the Lord of the Flies view of human nature: that we are all craven, some more, some less, but all of us would knife our neighbor if left to our own devices. “Left alone, we all sin,” as one of the more bombastic posters on this thread has put it.

I lean more toward the old utopian anarchist viewpoint: left to ourselves, we try to help each other more than Hobbes would have predicted. Not always, of course, but that we do it at all is astonishing. Why do we do that? As I have said before, that quality of freely giving of ourselves to strangers, that spark to do this, is my definition of God. Perhaps you would say that I have done a semantic and rhetorical sleight of hand, merely redefining God and religion so that I can keep them: I don’t think so.
I'm about halfway through reading this thread, but I had to stop and say...

THIS.

Wanting to be desperately needed, wanting to be worshipped, wanting to be the sole source of another person's happiness.... those are viewed by most people today as mental illnesses.

Why do people define God that way? Why do we have to be worthless, fallen, sinful creatures "without God"? IMO, God wouldn't want such a thing. Even an imperfect human parent wouldn't want such a thing for her child.

Why is dependency seen as a good thing?

My opinion is that a good God would want us to be enlightened, he would want us to understand the true meaning of life and true love and true happiness. And I don't see how that requires coming to some decision that I was naturally born some type of evil pond scum.

And really, if God made us, and we're born evil, then whose fault would that be, hmmmm? ;) I think we are born good. Perfect, even. Perfect human beings born into an imperfect world, with common and unique challenges that ultimately can bring us closer to God.

In my life experience, the goodness of God has led me to want to know God more, and made me feel love for God. Not that I'm so "needy" and such a "loser" without him. (Although, don't get me wrong, I have experienced life as loser, and I have needs. :D)

It's a spiritual phenomenon, and there are so many ways to experience what God is. And none of them involve disparaging myself (any more than I already have in my life).

Just my 2 cents.
 

Chrissy

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Some of my reflections - and please excuse the disjointedness of it all.

My personal belief is that we are all seekers. We as humans have a need for equilibrium (for want of a better word) in our inner most selves. Some are naturally centred, some find it in religion, some attempt to find it with drugs or alcohol, some find it with meditation, some with exercise. I've often noticed that people who have abused drugs or alcohol take to religion with the same vengance that they used to have when they imbibed. This does not mean there is or is not a God but I do find it interesting to see the correlation between these things and many religious rituals which involve, wine, meditation (chanting, fingering rosary beads) drugs (hallucinogenic mushrooms, marijuana).

While I enjoy the mental exercise of religious debate, I am agnostic (I went to Sunday school as a child, but it obviously didn't take). I never liked the "he sees you when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake" concept of Santa when I was a child, a God who did the same was incredibly creepy in my eyes, and I find it odd that adults are still yearning for a paternal figure. Yet at the same time, due to some curious happenings in my life I cannot totally discount a Spirit greater than I, or the concept of an afterlife.

I guess I will just wait and see.
Couple of things. I love kika! Okay that's number 1. I feel that I am specially qualified, as an ex-drug addict, to comment upon the possible relationship between drugs and God. And that is: drugs are a poor substitute for God. I've met a lot of drug addicts and alcoholics in my life, and the common thread is that we seem to *feel* things very strongly, our emotions are on over-drive, and so it makes sense that people getting off of drugs latch on to a God-concept more easily, so they can continue to express their emotions via religion. Not only because we seem to have a more emotional construct, but also due to a seeming need for a replacement for the drugs.

However. Most drug addicts I've known also have commonalities of extreme creativity, deep thought processes, and high intelligence. So, combining those characteristics with the idea that an ex-addict religious "freak" is just looking for his next "high" sorta breaks down. I don't think it's that drug addicts replace drugs with God. I think it's that drug addicts temporarily skipped over God to use drugs.

A cool thing I heard a while back is that addicts actually have the most contribute to society, because of their gifts of emotion and feeling and creativity, but they are also most tormented by said gifts. Same with mental illnesses. Madness and genius are two sides of the same coin.
I suspect that is in part because most recovery programs derive from the original AA 12-step program. These programs often still have a heavy Christian overlay.
Yes. And this is one ex-addict who rejected the AA program. Even though I don't begrudge anyone else who utilizes it.
all gods are vengeful. because god is a human construct. the very function of myth is to explain nature. the only way for some humans to make sense of the unforgiving cruelty of nature is to put the responsibility on a power that holds sway over them.
See, this is the crux of the problem I have with any single person's interepretation of God. Even those who wrote the Bible. It's just in me to ask: How the hell do you know? What's going on with you, that you should come to this conclusion? Because you are a human, just like me. No better, no worse. Why should I take your word for it that you heard from God? If you can hear from God, I can hear from God. (But thanks for sharing :))

You do your thing, I'll do mine. That's what a relationship with God is all about, IMO. It's personal.
 
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Siri Kirpal

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But it's easily skimmed. Some of the more recent stuff, I'm sorry to say, is essentially spam. Me, I'm hoping against hope that a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Wiccan, a . . . will weigh in before the thing peters out. But it's late, at least here, and I need to get to bed.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

That quote was posted years ago. Read this huge thread up to this point and decided as the resident Sikh here to take a shot at what we (Sikhs) don't think is definable.

Okay, that's Sikh position number 1: All definitions of God are by definition finite, but God is by definition Infinite. Did your eyes just cross? Good. You got the point. Defining what is indefinable may be more trouble than it's worth.

Sikh position number 2: God is everything, both bad and good. That does not mean we think it's okay to do bad. But it does mean we think God created and permeates all religions and all non-religions.

Sikh position number 3: God is Playright, Actor, Stage Manager, Stage Hands and Audience.

I subscribe to all 3 in varying quantities as the mood hits. Other Sikhs may (probably will) disagree with any or all of the above.

I wax lyrical sometimes in poetry, but not usually in this sort of thread.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Chrissy

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)
:hi: I liked your post. Here are my comments:

Okay, that's Sikh position number 1: All definitions of God are by definition finite, but God is by definition Infinite. Did your eyes just cross? Good. You got the point. Defining what is indefinable may be more trouble than it's worth.
I love this. I agree so much. I think I could learn from Sikhs to stop over-thinking things.

Sikh position number 2: God is everything, both bad and good. That does not mean we think it's okay to do bad. But it does mean we think God created and permeates all religions and all non-religions.
I agree that God can go anywhere, and do anything, and he is not limited to one religion. However, I think of "bad" (as in pain, fear, despair, addiction, compulsion) as being the absence of God. Though I feel that God works through "bad" to bring us higher up, to know and understand Him/Her better, and to ultimately gain more real happiness. And by happiness, I pretty much mean serenity. I think.

Sikh position number 3: God is Playright, Actor, Stage Manager, Stage Hands and Audience.
This is really cool. At first I was going to say I think God made us the actors.... but the more I think about it, the more I love your take. He really does have it all under control, with an understanding of the entire "play," and I can trust in that. :)
 

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existence is all.

in definable terms, existence is 'God'.

and as non-existence is inconceivable, God is eternal.

em, that's 'bout it.

as for attributes etc, no idea.
 

Siri Kirpal

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:hi: I liked your post. Here are my comments:

I love this. I agree so much. I think I could learn from Sikhs to stop over-thinking things.

I agree that God can go anywhere, and do anything, and he is not limited to one religion. However, I think of "bad" (as in pain, fear, despair, addiction, compulsion) as being the absence of God. Though I feel that God works through "bad" to bring us higher up, to know and understand Him/Her better, and to ultimately gain more real happiness. And by happiness, I pretty much mean serenity. I think.

This is really cool. At first I was going to say I think God made us the actors.... but the more I think about it, the more I love your take. He really does have it all under control, with an understanding of the entire "play," and I can trust in that. :)

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Yes, we often say that over-weaning ego that shuts off the Divine creates unhappiness. [And for the atheists in the crowd, we're not talking here about belief at all.] But we also acknowledge that ego is God's creation too. And many things we think of as bad aren't bad in the long long long run.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

William Haskins

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How the hell do you know? What's going on with you, that you should come to this conclusion? Because you are a human, just like me. No better, no worse. Why should I take your word for it that you heard from God? If you can hear from God, I can hear from God.

oh goodness.

i didn't hear anything from god, because there's nothing to hear.

i made an observation based on documented human behavior.
 

Chrissy

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oh goodness.

i didn't hear anything from god, because there's nothing to hear.

i made an observation based on documented human behavior.
No, no, I didn't mean you, you. I meant the people who claim they hear from God.

I was actually agreeing with you, William, that God is a human construct (until and unless such time as he/she comes down and manifests himself/herself to all of us at the same time. :D)

I don't accept, and feel no pressure to accept, another person's construct. I have my own. That was where the "How the hell do you know" came from. Hopefully that makes sense.
 

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"God is a human construct (until and unless such time as he/she comes down and manifests himself/herself to all of us at the same time."

With my LSD experience, there was no way it could ever become the experience of anyone else. They had to have their own. Maybe that's why many people denounce Christianity because of it's exclusive nature, it can only become a reality for a singular individual for it to actualize.

Regardless if God manifests "in mass" or not, God never becomes an actual experience except through autonomous and individual realization.

God "coming down and manifesting...to all of us at the same time" does not equate to validation of God. The dynamic of "knowing God" requires personal belief, otherwise, there is no such experience of knowing God.
 

Rhoda Nightingale

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@Siri Kirpal: I really like your post too. Especially the third one, with the play.

If you don't mind my asking, and since this seems an appropriate place to do it: Why do you always start your posts with a "greeting," and what does "Truth Name" mean to you? I've always been intrigued by that.

As for what "God" is to me: Complicated. On-going. Intensely personal. What I believe is that God wears many faces, and appears to me at different times in my life in all of them depending on what I need to hear. Which more often than not is something like, "You know what you need to do--just go do it." I'm getting better at listening. But, I do procrastinate. I'm still a writer, after all.
 

Siri Kirpal

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@Siri Kirpal: I really like your post too. Especially the third one, with the play.

If you don't mind my asking, and since this seems an appropriate place to do it: Why do you always start your posts with a "greeting," and what does "Truth Name" mean to you? I've always been intrigued by that.

As for what "God" is to me: Complicated. On-going. Intensely personal. What I believe is that God wears many faces, and appears to me at different times in my life in all of them depending on what I need to hear. Which more often than not is something like, "You know what you need to do--just go do it." I'm getting better at listening. But, I do procrastinate. I'm still a writer, after all.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I begin all phone conversations with Sat Nam! and most letters (though I don't when querying), etc. It seems right to do so here. I put in the parenthetic translation, because not everyone reads every one of my posts.

Truth Name = In the Name of the Truth

OR

"I see Truth in you"

And that's good for me to remember when posting.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 
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