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It's Already Been Done...So Do It Again! Or Add To It?

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ColdWintersNight

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So how does one go about expanding on an idea that's already out there. Along the lines of Wicked, where a story is already established, and can give the author a great starting off point, where they don't have to recreate the wheel.
I have this awesome idea that takes place after the D*sney Beauty and the Beast, but where is the line of it becoming a fanfiction rather than a novel based idea.

I mean that's what 50 of Gray is, correct? The lady started writing it is a Twilight fanfiction, and then changed the names. Now she's a millionaire.
 

Samsonet

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The author of FSoG actually had a fan base when she published it. Most of them were Twilight fans. So if someone wanted to replicate her success they'd have to be pretty choosy about the fandom they wrote in.

Anyway, to answer your question -- well, kinda -- what specifically makes it the Disney version rather than the generic one? I'd say with Disney the copyright-infringment line is more limiting than a story based off, say, Harry Potter. Disney is pretty protective of their stuff.
 

Justin K

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This reminds me of the people who do unique covers of popular songs on youtube to get popular. There's no need to piggyback on someone else's work to create something amazing. Moreover, you may be hindering your own talent by giving your creativity that crutch, by only seeing an ability within yourself to build on something rather than start from scratch (which is much more rewarding than changing the words to a song, metaphorically speaking).
 

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File the serial numbers off enough and give it a try. There have been a lot of Beauty and the Beast retellings. The best add new life and twists.

But be aware that Disney has feckin' dire lawyers, so file carefully. In 1979, Robin McKinley's 'Beauty' retelling featured a book-loving heroine. Post-Disney and Belle, any writer trying that might be subject to legal claims by Disney, spurious or not.
 

ColdWintersNight

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Those are all really good points. I guess this is where research comes in. The idea doesn't HAVE to be Disney, but if the original characters where turned into enchanted items and not just a Disney thing, then we're in business. It's all about what happens afterwards.

This also reminds me of an awesome novel called "Dorothy Must Die." where another girl from Kanases has to kill the Scarecrow, Lion and Tin Man in order to get home. (Dunno why Oz seems to be the popular one to piggyback off of.)
 

Samsonet

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People got sick of Wonderland, I'm guessing. If so, expect Neverland retellings in the next five years or so. :D

Enchanted humans-as-objects isn't a Disney thing, as far as I know, but the concept is pretty generic by itself so I think you can get away with it.
 
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Brightdreamer

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(Dunno why Oz seems to be the popular one to piggyback off of.)

It goes in waves. Once the books lapsed into public domain - and especially after the big 100-year anniversary - everyone had an Oz story lurking in the closet.

And Samsonet: You don't have to wait five years. There have already been the Starcatchers books (by David Barry and Ridley Pearson, the prequels to Peter Pan), the "official" sequel (Peter Pan in Scarlet, by Geraldine McCaughrean), Tiger Lily (the story of the Indian princess of Neverland), the Never Girls MG series (Disney spinoff), the Tinker Bell series (ditto)...
 

gothicangel

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Those are all really good points. I guess this is where research comes in. The idea doesn't HAVE to be Disney, but if the original characters where turned into enchanted items and not just a Disney thing, then we're in business. It's all about what happens afterwards.

It would probably be worth going back and reading the original fairy-tale, and what other people have done with it. I highly recommend Angela Carter's awesome versions (you'll find them in The Bloody Chamber.)
 

Lhowling

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I don't know about fanfiction, but I am doing something similar with Sleeping Beauty, only I've taken the original Charles Perrault version and retold the story to focus on themes that make my tale darker. Meka James (who is a member of AW) released a dark romance version of Beauty & the Beast also so it may be worth checking out. Based on the first couple of pages, it's on my reading list :D

For me, it's not so much about, "How can I expand upon this world?" But more like, "What are the themes in this tale that writers and readers haven't seen discussed yet? How can I retell the story while highlighting those forgotten or unacknowledged themes?" Neil Gaiman just released a version of Sleeping Beauty where the Queen herself kisses the princess and awakens her.

Since I'm almost in the middle of completing my ms, I can't tell you what readers think. However, I have noticed comments and reviews on GR where readers have deducted a point or two because although the author says it's a reimagined tale; their story lacks the original characters and or doesn't actually possess the accuracy of the fairy tale being retold. What I take away from this is that the author tweaked the story so much that it becomes an entirely new story for the reader which, for fans of fairy tales, might not be what they want. Essentially they loved the original tale, but want to see it told in a way that feels new to them.

Some food for thought: If it isn't important to focus on the Disney version, then I'd say take what you loved about Disney's B&B (or what you hated, since that's a fine motivator) and inject your own creative spin. What haven't we seen out of the B&B story just yet?
 

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If it's in the public domain, you can do anything you wish. What you can't do is use a version of it that someone else owns. You have to be original, and base your story on the original fairy tale or story. It's a think line, but if Disney owns it, stay away from their version. They can get real nasty, if you infringe.
 

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For me, it's not so much about, "How can I expand upon this world?" But more like, "What are the themes in this tale that writers and readers haven't seen discussed yet? How can I retell the story while highlighting those forgotten or unacknowledged themes?"

I think Lhowling really hit the nail on the head. Find something to riff on, some point or facet which speaks to you. Then start removing elements that feel cliche or overused (or anything that makes you worry about copyright infringement for that matter). What you're left with should be pretty original.

It's your voice and point of view that will set your interpretation apart and make it interesting.
 

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Plenty of people do fairy-tale retellings--I do a lot of them myself. (I've got a Beauty & the Beast one coming out next year, as a matter of fact, and am working the Snow Queen as we speak...)

It's a pretty well established genre. The thing to be careful of is to retell the fairy tale, not necessarily the other retellings. Beauty & the Beast is fair game, but in the original, the servants are invisible/turned to statues/absent. If you turn everybody into singing tableware, you're walking down a dangerous road that ends in lawyers.

On the other hand, if you want to write a story about people recovering from being turned into objects, there's no reason to limit it to a Beauty & the Beast story specifically--any old fairy curse can get you there.

(Just a note, for anyone going to original source material on B&B--goddamn, the original translation from the French is weird. Half of it is about fairy politics, narrated by a fairy at the wedding, and they keep going on about turning into snakes. It would probably make a fascinating retelling, but since most readers haven't read those bits, you'd lose the oomph of a new twist on an old story.)
 

ColdWintersNight

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I don't know about fanfiction, but I am doing something similar with Sleeping Beauty, only I've taken the original Charles Perrault version and retold the story to focus on themes that make my tale darker. Meka James (who is a member of AW) released a dark romance version of Beauty & the Beast also so it may be worth checking out. Based on the first couple of pages, it's on my reading list :D

For me, it's not so much about, "How can I expand upon this world?" But more like, "What are the themes in this tale that writers and readers haven't seen discussed yet? How can I retell the story while highlighting those forgotten or unacknowledged themes?" Neil Gaiman just released a version of Sleeping Beauty where the Queen herself kisses the princess and awakens her.

Downloaded that book Meka James wrote, and it was not my cup of tea. I don't enjoy murder thrillers, let alone ones where nothing happens for the first 20 chapters besides women being kidnapped, tortured, and their only line is "Please, don't. Please let me go." But that's just me. Very misleading, IMHO. The story had nothing to do with B&B besides the concept of "Looks can be devising?" But that can cover a looooooot of larger bodies or work. The cover of the book is also misleading. I thought it would be at least set in the 18th century, since the women on the cover is in a ballgown with an up-do at the entrance that looks to be a castle. But sadly it was set in modern times as well. Oh well. Anyway!

Good advice though! I'll have to look up the Neil book instead. Though if it falls on the hells of the new Maleficent movie, where she's the one to wake up the Sleeping Beauty for no other reason than...because, hey why not. The prince thing is over played, theeeen I might brush off his work as well. I'm so picky!

Plenty of people do fairy-tale retellings--I do a lot of them myself. (I've got a Beauty & the Beast one coming out next year, as a matter of fact, and am working the Snow Queen as we speak...)

It's a pretty well established genre. The thing to be careful of is to retell the fairy tale, not necessarily the other retellings. Beauty & the Beast is fair game, but in the original, the servants are invisible/turned to statues/absent. If you turn everybody into singing tableware, you're walking down a dangerous road that ends in lawyers.

On the other hand, if you want to write a story about people recovering from being turned into objects, there's no reason to limit it to a Beauty & the Beast story specifically--any old fairy curse can get you there.

(Just a note, for anyone going to original source material on B&B--goddamn, the original translation from the French is weird. Half of it is about fairy politics, narrated by a fairy at the wedding, and they keep going on about turning into snakes. It would probably make a fascinating retelling, but since most readers haven't read those bits, you'd lose the oomph of a new twist on an old story.)

Very good! Yeah I was thinking up an idea to write on what happens AFTER and really focus on the side characters. But you've made a great point, it doesn't HAVE to be B&B. I was just so hung up on it because that's where I got the idea so I couldn't pull away from it. But now I'm thinking I can totally make my own thing. Just as long as the idea of changing into one thing than another is there, then there's not problem.

Thanks for the advice everyone!
 

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Andrew Lang collected 12 volumes of fairy tales in the 1890's, which included a myriad of familiar - and not-so-familiar - stories. (437 in all.) They were extremely popular in their time and many of the stories are not well-known today.

(If you look at a list of them, you'll see many of those which are well-known and have been re-made, re-written, made into movies, etc.)

Anyhow, why not check them out? The volumes are known by their colors, the Blue Fairy Tale Book, the Red Fairy Tale Book, etc.

Surely one of these many tales is just waiting to be re-interpreted?
 
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Yeah I was thinking up an idea to write on what happens AFTER...

Check out Jim C Hines's Princess series -- they're fun, imaginative, engaging, and G/PG rated. (If you can read one and not immediately run out and buy the whole set....well, you're a stronger person than me :D )
 

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Andrew Lang collected 12 volumes of fairy tales in the 1890's, which included a myriad of familiar - and not-so-familiar - stories. (437 in all.) They were extremely popular in their time and many of the stories are not well-known today.

(If you look at a list of them, you'll see many of those which are well-known and have been re-made, re-written, made into movies, etc.)

Anyhow, why not check them out? The volumes are known by their colors, the Blue Fairy Tale Book, the Red Fairy Tale Book, etc.

Surely one of these many tales is just waiting to be re-interpreted?

Back when I lived near a halfway decent library I completely devoured The Color Fairy books. This was almost ten years ago. I wish I could get my hands on them again so I could reread them. They were SO interesting.
 

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So how does one go about expanding on an idea that's already out there. Along the lines of Wicked, where a story is already established, and can give the author a great starting off point, where they don't have to recreate the wheel.
I have this awesome idea that takes place after the D*sney Beauty and the Beast, but where is the line of it becoming a fanfiction rather than a novel based idea.

I mean that's what 50 of Gray is, correct? The lady started writing it is a Twilight fanfiction, and then changed the names. Now she's a millionaire.

It isn't actually quite that simple, all truth be told. FSoG did indeed begin its life as a fanfic, but it didn't start as a "normal fanfic." It began as an alternate universe BDSM story, with Edward and Bella both older and human. If it hadn't started out as an AU it would have been much much harder for the writer to file off the serial numbers and publish it. It's really hard to file enough off to sell when something is not only canon compliant for a book or other media, but when the characters are completely in character as well.

This reminds me of the people who do unique covers of popular songs on youtube to get popular. There's no need to piggyback on someone else's work to create something amazing. Moreover, you may be hindering your own talent by giving your creativity that crutch, by only seeing an ability within yourself to build on something rather than start from scratch (which is much more rewarding than changing the words to a song, metaphorically speaking).

I've never understood this type of thinking at all. If someone is serious about their fanfiction and decides to take up original work, they're more equipped to do things like research, keeping the world consistent and compliant with their own mental canon of their world, and keeping characters in character. Someone writing fanfiction and for example making it take place in some alternate world is no different then someone whose passion is Fantasy first writing a Historical novel as practice using a well known historical figure. Both working with knowns as far as world, and the known personality of their famous character is concerned.

It's hardly a hinderance to a writers talent to be able to do these things. The method of learning these skills is simply a diferent one than when someone starts with original stories. I know that for one of my fanfics I have to research London, one has me researching Vulcans in great depth, another has me scoring the net for any information on Andorians I can find, and yet another has me doing yet more research on something entirely unrelated. I'm the kind of fanfic writer who isn't lazy. All the characters I use canon or original remain in character. Any non-canon pairing I choose to write can actually be supported by facts in the canon, and the same could be said for any minor or original characters I use. Heck, I've created a Vulcan who falls in love with a human in one story based on the fact it's likely impossible there's not more than two Vulcan/Human couples to of ever existed. And this Vulcan's ability to befriend humans and ultimately fall in love is based on the canon fact that Soval, T'Pol, and Spock all develope profound friendships with humans. I didn't feel like focusing on canon characters in this story, and that those three are able to do this when others aren't proves Vulcans vary in their ability to deal with humans and develope close ties with them. My story is completely plausible for the fandom I'm working in.

As far as I'm concerned, the mark of a great fanfic is it being so high quality and well researched it feels like an extension of canon no matter the changes made. A good original story is just as high quality and with the same attention to getting things just right. In other words, the only real difference is who's characters are being used.
 

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This reminds me of the people who do unique covers of popular songs on youtube to get popular. There's no need to piggyback on someone else's work to create something amazing. Moreover, you may be hindering your own talent by giving your creativity that crutch, by only seeing an ability within yourself to build on something rather than start from scratch (which is much more rewarding than changing the words to a song, metaphorically speaking).

I don't know much about writing fanfiction because I've never read it or written it. However, when it comes to doing cover versions of other people's songs, there is no truth in saying that it's hindering your talent. For starters, developing the technical ability to perform a carbon copy of someone else's song (e.g. what the Bootleg Beatles do) will increase your technical skills at playing music, because of the amount of skill and practice it requires to do that.

You need to learn how to perform songs before you can do anything with songs you've written, unless you have someone who's already an accomplished performer who's going to perform them. I used to play in a band and probably 95% of what we practiced were other people's songs, because you can't learn to perform just by practicing stuff you've written yourself. You can't even write a decent song until you've learned to play lots of good songs.

Readapting someone else's song to make it new and different takes creativity and a sense of your own/your band's style, and the technical skill you need to perform it well.

As for people releasing covers to get popular - a good cover is hard to come by, precisely because it requires a lot of skill and creativity to make one. It is not a short cut to musical success. The high number of rubbish cover versions out there exist because people think it is. If someone's got the skill and creativity to create a really good cover version to get themselves known, then go on to sell their own songs (because they're damn good too) then they clearly are someone who has talent. Someone who lacks talent and creativity will release a crap cover on you tube, get a few views based on name recognition, not develop much of a following because there will be several better cover versions of that song out there, and still won't manage to sell any of their own songs because their cover version wasn't good enough to get themselves noticed and their own songs are probably even worse.
 

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You can't use "Beauty and the Beast" characters, but you can use a man who is disfigured in a war and falls in love with the beauty queen and the struggles they endure. But no, you can't use someone else's characters in your novel. Don't even hint at it. Don't use someone who is a lion/man. Now you could use a centaur and a princess. Or a fantasy character and a human. But no, don't use someone else's characters in your novel.


So how does one go about expanding on an idea that's already out there. Along the lines of Wicked, where a story is already established, and can give the author a great starting off point, where they don't have to recreate the wheel.
I have this awesome idea that takes place after the D*sney Beauty and the Beast, but where is the line of it becoming a fanfiction rather than a novel based idea.

I mean that's what 50 of Gray is, correct? The lady started writing it is a Twilight fanfiction, and then changed the names. Now she's a millionaire.
 

Lillith1991

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You can't use "Beauty and the Beast" characters, but you can use a man who is disfigured in a war and falls in love with the beauty queen and the struggles they endure. But no, you can't use someone else's characters in your novel. Don't even hint at it. Don't use someone who is a lion/man. Now you could use a centaur and a princess. Or a fantasy character and a human. But no, don't use someone else's characters in your novel.

Ummm, Belle is not the property of Disney. Their version of her story is, and they borrowed her from a story by the same name (Beauty and the Beast) which was first published in the 1750's. So I would say you can use the names should you desire to, but that doesn't mean you should. Combined with other things it may end up making the story too close to the disney version, and that would be bad from a legal standpoint.
 
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